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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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 Posted: 01/01/22 1:18 am ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
For me, all that changed last winter. Kolb made three dramatic moves, getting Laney, Howard, and Whitcomb. Consider this: in May 2022, Laney will be about 29, Howard will be nearing 32, and Whitcomb will be nearing 34. Given that, the goal can't be building toward a great team in 2024 or 2025. It has to be winning the WNBA title this year or in 2023. ) |
I think you're being a bit aggressive with your rounding of ages. Yes, Laney turns 29 next year, but after the season is over. Howard turns 31 in early September. But I agree with your basic premise. This is not a young team in the same way as Dallas. Key starters on the Liberty are in "win now" mode.
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 01/01/22 1:59 am ::: |
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crazy Liberty plan version 1000
re-sign Charles to ship hunt on her hometown team she grew up watching (borrow some of that Parker narrative)
See if we can get Dolson for not too much (maybe settle for E. Williams if Dolson is too expensive the back up center won't have to score very much or just stick with Shook if we are out of money)
re-sign current Opal R. Allen (or Talbot if we can't afford her)
solve back up PG situation with slight reach at #5 with Henderson who seems like a pretty safe high floor kind of draft pick
Ionescu/Henderson
Whitcomb/Richards/Jones or Durr
Laney/Onyenwere
Charles/Allen/Willoughby
Howard/Dolson
(or move Onyenwere to Willoughby's spot as a back up 4 and bring back Nurse who just played with Sandy on a cheap deal to back up Laney)
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 01/01/22 2:15 am ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
For me, all that changed last winter. Kolb made three dramatic moves, getting Laney, Howard, and Whitcomb. Consider this: in May 2022, Laney will be about 29, Howard will be nearing 32, and Whitcomb will be nearing 34. Given that, the goal can't be building toward a great team in 2024 or 2025. It has to be winning the WNBA title this year or in 2023. ) |
I think you're being a bit aggressive with your rounding of ages. Yes, Laney turns 29 next year, but after the season is over. Howard turns 31 in early September. But I agree with your basic premise. This is not a young team in the same way as Dallas. Key starters on the Liberty are in "win now" mode. |
I've checked. You are right: Howard will be nearing 31 in May 2022, not 32. I regret my error. I'm glad you agree with my premise (and Stormeo's): because of the ages of these three key players, New York is in a "win now" mode. I expect Kolb to be making roster moves with this in mind.
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Rock Hard
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
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| Posted: 01/01/22 9:59 am ::: |
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For some time now both New York fans and Dallas fans have been bemoaning the fact that they don't have a high quality post player on their respective squads. 2022 is the year to fix this problem. There are many high quality post players available this free agency period. Chicago has shown how adding a high quality post to your squad can change the direction of your franchise.
This year is the year to take care of business and get that high quality post player. No more excuses.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 01/01/22 11:11 am ::: |
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| Rock Hard wrote: |
For some time now both New York fans and Dallas fans have been bemoaning the fact that they don't have a high quality post player on their respective squads. 2022 is the year to fix this problem. There are many high quality post players available this free agency period. Chicago has shown how adding a high quality post to your squad can change the direction of your franchise.
This year is the year to take care of business and get that high quality post player. No more excuses. |
"Available" starts looking more dubious as you take a closer look:
- Stewart has basically said she's going back to Seattle. She will also likely be cored.
- Fowles has explicitly stated that she will either return to Minnesota or retire.
- A lot of people, including Mike Thibault, believe that Meesseman will not play in the WNBA this season.
- Wilson is restricted
- Cambage seems very motivated by money. Returning to LVA is the only way to get supermax unless she forces a trade. However, Liz is high maintenance and not for everybody. Do you want to give up a lot of assets in a trade, pay her supermax, wonder how Liz fits into your system, and also put up with all her drama?
- Jonquel Jones will likely be cored.
- Hines-Allen is restricted, and now it looks like she won't have any competition to get paid. Also, NY needs a center. MHA can pull off being an undersized 4 but not a 5.
Obviously, we don't know what's going on behind the scenes. Someone may be disgruntled and we don't know about it. But for now, the only star-level post who is clearly available is Tina Charles. I think Hopkins's departure makes it possible for her to return, but I'm not sure. In addition, Tina has said that winning a championship is her priority. If she's basically a one-issue voter, then Seattle would make more sense. With Charles off the table, we're now looking at the second tier:
- Russell is appealing because she has had some success defending against the best big centers in the league. However, Mercedes doesn't give you much on offense. For that matter, she doesn't really block shots either. Russell is not a rim protector.
- Elizabeth Williams is sort of a souped-up version of Kiah Stokes. Been there, done that.
- Dolson is sort of a souped-up version of Amanda Zahui B. Been there, done that. Besides, we know how much Sky fans on this board love Stefanie. We wouldn't want to deny you an opportunity to get her back. 
- Ndour-Fall is a weird player. She can look really good and she can be terrible. As a big star on the Spanish National Team, Astou will likely miss a big chunk of time -- if not the whole season.
- Billings is too small to play center. She's also iffy on the offensive end.
- Plaisance... No thanks.
I've already expressed an interest in trading for Ruthy Hebard. If CT were interested in moving Brionna Jones, that would be intriguing too. Otherwise, we're looking at Cunane in the draft or Austin if she slips. I've also been watching Kalani Brown a little bit in Turkey. It looks like she may have just left Hatay, but before that she was playing well. Brown appears to be in the best shape of her life. Now and then, she runs full speed to keep up with the fast break. Kalani moves surprisingly well when she makes the effort. That's running straight ahead on offense. She's still slow moving laterally, and on defense she jogs back leisurely. Hey, you can't everything.  But it's notable that Brown was averaging 34.1 mpg. You have to be in shape to play that many minutes. Now, the question is where did she go and why? If there's nothing bad going on, then I'd be very interested in bringing Kalani to camp and seeing if she fits in.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 01/01/22 11:17 am ::: |
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Most of that's pretty reasonable, but just to add on Ndour-Fall that Spain have nothing on this summer. She's generally been pretty good about showing up regardless, and not taking too much time even when there are Euro commitments during the WNBA season, but Spain aren't even in the qualifiers for the World Cup so there's no reason she shouldn't be available for the whole 2022 season.
Which isn't to say she'd be a great fit for New York anyway. |
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Rock Hard
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| Posted: 01/01/22 11:52 am ::: |
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No contract is final until a player puts their signature on that paper. No WNBA fan predicted that Parker was heading to Chicago last year or Howard was going to New York. Every team that is serious about making a championship push this season needs to be aggressive on recruiting the players that they want on their squads.
Banking on rookies to change the fortune of your team is good for the future. But if any team wants to win NOW better get their hands on some high quality veterans.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 01/01/22 1:49 pm ::: |
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| Rock Hard wrote: |
No contract is final until a player puts their signature on that paper. No WNBA fan predicted that Parker was heading to Chicago last year or Howard was going to New York. Every team that is serious about making a championship push this season needs to be aggressive on recruiting the players that they want on their squads.
Banking on rookies to change the fortune of your team is good for the future. But if any team wants to win NOW better get their hands on some high quality veterans. |
As I said, we don't know what's happening behind the scenes. Some star player could be quietly unhappy and demand a trade. Just pointing out that the seeming abundance of post players is a bit of a mirage. Also not saying that NY should count on rookies by choice. However, second or third-tier veterans may not move the needle. In that case, I'd rather go with a cheap young player with growth potential rather than desperately add a mediocre veteran who will clog up my salary cap in future years.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 01/01/22 3:01 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| As I said, we don't know what's happening behind the scenes. Some star player could be quietly unhappy and demand a trade. Just pointing out that the seeming abundance of post players is a bit of a mirage. Also not saying that NY should count on rookies by choice. However, second or third-tier veterans may not move the needle. In that case, I'd rather go with a cheap young player with growth potential rather than desperately add a mediocre veteran who will clog up my salary cap in future years. |
I agree with all of this. All I can add is that Jonathan Kolb made some very intriguing moves last winter and I hope he can again. But the realities you've presented are on the mark. And there's no guarantee that some star post player we'd love to have will want to leave her team AND come to New York.
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RavenDog
Joined: 19 Feb 2007
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| Posted: 01/01/22 3:44 pm ::: |
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Shakespeare just couldn't put it all together. Some can and the majority cannot. Another less than able performer in a disheartening line of GM's and Coaches. Unfortunately, these second tier performers at the throttle hurt the growth of the Liberty for years.
It's been a long and hard road over the years for all involved.
Starting all over again Sandy...
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 01/01/22 8:18 pm ::: |
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We haven't had much discussion here regarding Tina Charles. root_thing has suggested that Tina may care most about finally getting a WNBA championship, which is a reasonable view. If so, she may feel she'll have better options than the Liberty. On the other hand, we know of Charles's strong ties to New York City.
There's one important thing we don't know. It certainly seemed that Walt Hopkins wanted Tina gone. Did Jonathan Kolb feel the same or was he mainly going along with the urging of the head coach he'd just hired? Given how Tina played in 2021, would Kolb want Tina back?
It's possible--but it seems unlikely--that the Liberty can get a post player for 2022 better than Tina Charles. Should Tina consider returning, she'll know this won't be like her past Liberty stint. If she's on the floor with Ionescu, Laney, Howard, and Whitcomb, she won't have to carry the load all alone like she did way too long in a New York uniform.
I'd love to see Tina Charles finish her WNBA career in Brooklyn, ideally with a championship this year or soon.
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Rock Hard
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| Posted: 01/02/22 1:20 am ::: |
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For all New York Liberty fans that want to keep hope alive, I have these words of encouragement for you.
Find exquisite delight in Jehovah, And he will grant you the desires of your heart. Psalms 37:4
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root_thing
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| Posted: 01/02/22 11:52 am ::: |
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As I've posted before, I always thought Tina's problem was that she played year-round with very little time off. Between WNBA, overseas, and USA Basketball, she never got a break. Other players have done the same, but ironically they got time off due to injuries. Charles never got injured. It sounds weird, but the pandemic was probably a really good thing for Tina. It gave her an excuse to take a whopping 16 months off from playing games. I think she came back rejuvenated last season, and we saw the results.
So far, I don't think Charles has played basketball this winter. If that continues, she should be fresh for the 2022 season. I've never been a particularly big fan of Charles -- more respect than admiration -- but I do think a reunion with the Liberty could work out well for both parties.
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Michelle89
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| Posted: 01/03/22 2:47 am ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
As I've posted before, I always thought Tina's problem was that she played year-round with very little time off. Between WNBA, overseas, and USA Basketball, she never got a break. Other players have done the same, but ironically they got time off due to injuries. Charles never got injured. It sounds weird, but the pandemic was probably a really good thing for Tina. It gave her an excuse to take a whopping 16 months off from playing games. I think she came back rejuvenated last season, and we saw the results.
So far, I don't think Charles has played basketball this winter. If that continues, she should be fresh for the 2022 season. I've never been a particularly big fan of Charles -- more respect than admiration -- but I do think a reunion with the Liberty could work out well for both parties. |
Didnt she play shorter overseas seasons at China for a couple of years. When was the last time that she played in the Euroleague. Cant remember. Fenerbahce in 2015?
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root_thing
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| Posted: 01/03/22 3:17 pm ::: |
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| Michelle89 wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
As I've posted before, I always thought Tina's problem was that she played year-round with very little time off. Between WNBA, overseas, and USA Basketball, she never got a break. Other players have done the same, but ironically they got time off due to injuries. Charles never got injured. It sounds weird, but the pandemic was probably a really good thing for Tina. It gave her an excuse to take a whopping 16 months off from playing games. I think she came back rejuvenated last season, and we saw the results.
So far, I don't think Charles has played basketball this winter. If that continues, she should be fresh for the 2022 season. I've never been a particularly big fan of Charles -- more respect than admiration -- but I do think a reunion with the Liberty could work out well for both parties. |
Didnt she play shorter overseas seasons at China for a couple of years. When was the last time that she played in the Euroleague. Cant remember. Fenerbahce in 2015? |
Yes, the last handful of winters Charles played were in China. The CBA has a shorter calendar schedule, but it looks to be more condensed (i.e., more games per week). I'm not sure if that's just a recent COVID thing -- maybe awhom111 can chime in. But even if Charles played fewer games in China, what was Tina doing with the time "saved"? Was she playing with USA Basketball? We know that European schedules can overlap with WNBA training camps and even the early regular season. If Tina spent that time with the Liberty, it's basically a wash in terms of wear and tear on her body.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 01/03/22 3:25 pm ::: |
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So I guess the WNBA website has now adjusted team rosters to include only those players currently under contract (and not suspended). Washington has just five players listed right now. The Liberty have ten: Ionescu, Laney, Howard, Whitcomb, Onyenwere, Richards, Willoughby, Jones, Shook, and Odom.
We can ponder whether any of these players will turn up on the Liberty roster in 2022: Allen, Gray, Han, Durr, Johannes, Fauthoux, Dojkic, Kea, and Raincock-Ekunwe.
I'll just say this. Whether she's one of the initial 12 or not, can it really be a Liberty season if Reshanda Gray isn't out on the court for New York at some point? Go Reshanda!!! 
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root_thing
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| Posted: 01/03/22 5:47 pm ::: |
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| It's interesting that all three assistant coaches are still listed after the recent updates. Does that mean they are all willing to come back as long as the new coach (Brondello probably) wants them?
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Richyyy
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| Posted: 01/03/22 6:14 pm ::: |
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| Jacki Gemelos just took a job with Allison Galer's agency, so I presume she won't be coming back. |
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 01/03/22 7:10 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| It's interesting that all three assistant coaches are still listed after the recent updates. Does that mean they are all willing to come back as long as the new coach (Brondello probably) wants them? |
I suspect it simply means that no one working on the WNBA website has even gotten around to looking at the lists of assistant coaches. But your question leads me to another: in the 2020s, how common is it for WNBA general managers and front offices to decide who assistant coaches should be rather than letting head coaches decide, subject to higher approval?
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root_thing
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Bob Lamm
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ChiSky54
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Bob Lamm
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pilight
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pilight
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| Posted: 01/03/22 10:49 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| Jacki Gemelos just took a job with Allison Galer's agency, so I presume she won't be coming back. |
If I had a nickel for every time it looked like her playing career was over...
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