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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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 Posted: 07/23/18 8:48 am ::: |
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| McCowan under Pokey in Indiana wouldn't be the best fit for her. McCowan under Laimbeer would. So if Vegas slips into the play-offs, maybe Laimbeer works his magic to trade for the #1 pick?
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 07/23/18 9:52 am ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
| I've never been high on McCowan. Doesn't seem to like getting physical, has poor foot work and can be quite sloppy in rebounding. IMO, she's only getting as much attention due to her height. If she was just 6-4 or 6-5, I doubt she'd be putting up the same numbers. If I'm the Liberty I'd take Brown over McCowan. |
Sloppy in rebounding? Didn’t she destroy the NCAA tournament record for rebounds in a tournament? If that’s sloppy, I’ll take sloppy anytime.
Do you anticipate her shrinking, because her height is what it is and her height is a big part of her value.
And she’s not one of these players you hope can get into better shape and it never happens (like Brown, for instance). McCowan is already there.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 07/23/18 10:59 am ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| toad455 wrote: |
| I've never been high on McCowan. Doesn't seem to like getting physical, has poor foot work and can be quite sloppy in rebounding. IMO, she's only getting as much attention due to her height. If she was just 6-4 or 6-5, I doubt she'd be putting up the same numbers. If I'm the Liberty I'd take Brown over McCowan. |
Watching them both in person i think Brown is the better player "Right Now" if McCowan goes to the right coach she will be the better player in year 2-3. |
I’d agree. McCowan’s raw talent is on another level from Brown’s. I love Brown’s game, however, and think you could plug her into a WNBA team right now and get good productivity. |
Some of Brown's value is her instincts/bball 'smarts' which I haven't seen yet from McCowan. McCowan has less range and not great hands - she seems to only be able to rebound/put back. That's nothing to sneeze at with her size, but you would hope she would develop something beyond that or she won't be more than a decent back up, like a bigger version of Stokes, but perhaps with less in the brains department. In the W, she will need to know something about positioning and more about defense than standing under the basket waiting for some dumb guard to try to go around her.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 07/25/18 11:45 am ::: |
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Looking at Syl’s junior year stats, McCowan’s are slightly better across the board but radically similar. Low assists, poor free throw shooter. Basically an inside player. I agree about her not being instinctive but also think Syl’s rookie numbers (10.5 ppg, 7.8 rpg) would be pretty reachable given the ridiculous wingspan, height and quick jumping. Looking at how different a player Syl is today (better passer, body control, post moves, can score away from the basket), McCowan’s upside projects well. There’s so much to work with. And she’s like 230 pounds.
I could equally Brown developing along Cambage lines. 6’7” 245 with similar finishing ability at that developmental stage. The addition of these post players to the league will probably alter the landscape of the league that much more. This will bring the league up to 5 teams with these kinds of post players. Seattle and LA also have shorter players with extreme wingspans (Stewie, Parker). Next year’s WNBA is going to be even more radical in terms of post play. Hopefully the Libs have some good offseason fortune. To keep pace with a changing league while getting back to their defensive/rebounding identity...they’ll need it.
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 07/25/18 11:49 am ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
| McCowan under Pokey in Indiana wouldn't be the best fit for her. McCowan under Laimbeer would. So if Vegas slips into the play-offs, maybe Laimbeer works his magic to trade for the #1 pick? |
The only viable trade for the No. 1 pick from LV would be Wilson. Anything else and Pokey's replacement (fingers crosses) laughs him off the phone.
To me, Brown is clearly the top choice. If Ionescu comes out early, then it becomes more of a question, but there's no reason to think she will.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 07/25/18 11:58 am ::: |
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People in the know feel that Ionescu isn’t coming out early. I tend to think she’d be the top pick if she did. That type of playmaker is one you get maybe once a decade in that 5’11 or 6’0” range. Brown might be the better choice for immediate improvement for a team like Indiana, but I look at Ionescu as the type that can get you to titles over the long-term.
I think everyone feels similarly that Brown is more immediately WNBA-ready than McCowan though.
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LibFan25
Joined: 01 Sep 2012
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| Posted: 07/25/18 1:53 pm ::: |
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Ionescu is talented player no doubt, but i'm still ridin with a post. we need meat down there. This season made me miss Bill laimbeer and appreciated what he did as the Liberty head coach. Defense and Rebounding Bill stress it and stress it even though he failed to get us further into the playoffs.
2019 Draft pool is deep, we should of been trading some players to load up on some picks
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 07/25/18 2:41 pm ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
Looking at Syl’s junior year stats, McCowan’s are slightly better across the board but radically similar. Low assists, poor free throw shooter. Basically an inside player. I agree about her not being instinctive but also think Syl’s rookie numbers (10.5 ppg, 7.8 rpg) would be pretty reachable given the ridiculous wingspan, height and quick jumping. Looking at how different a player Syl is today (better passer, body control, post moves, can score away from the basket), McCowan’s upside projects well. There’s so much to work with. And she’s like 230 pounds.
I could equally Brown developing along Cambage lines. 6’7” 245 with similar finishing ability at that developmental stage. The addition of these post players to the league will probably alter the landscape of the league that much more. This will bring the league up to 5 teams with these kinds of post players. Seattle and LA also have shorter players with extreme wingspans (Stewie, Parker). Next year’s WNBA is going to be even more radical in terms of post play. Hopefully the Libs have some good offseason fortune. To keep pace with a changing league while getting back to their defensive/rebounding identity...they’ll need it. |
I was thinking about McCowan the other day, and I also came up with Fowles as a comp. Syl was very raw offensively when she came out of college. I still remember that 2008 semifinal game against Tennessee where she had numerous chances to give LSU some breathing room toward the end but kept missing bunnies. I also remember that in her third year we discussed on this board how Syl should be a MIP candidate (knowing it was unlikely to happen) because her offensive game had greatly improved. So, Fowles definitely entered the league as an offensive work-in-progress. However, she was able to contribute right away on defense and off the boards. I feel the same will be true for McCowan. Her combination of size and leaping ability will translate at the next level. She'll help someone's interior defense right away. I disagree with the idea that McCowan just waits for opponents to come by to block their shot. I've seen Teaira move around to cover for teammates. It's just that in the college game, you're allowed to stand in the paint and play goaltender. Griner did it, and it's probably the most effective way for a team to use their shotblocker. Sliding in and out of the lane is an adjustment McCowan will need to make as a pro, but she certainly has the mobility to do it.
As for Brown, I think she'll work out, but I don't feel as sure about her as McCowan. Brown relies more on muscling people out of the way. Not only is she slower with less leaping ability than McCowan, but Brown is also noticeably less fluid in the way she moves. Overall, I like Kalani, but I'm not convinced she'll be as impactful on defense and off the boards as McCowan. To me, it's not now versus later between these two players. I see it as offense now versus defense and rebounding now. Personally, I would take the defense and rebounding.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
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| Posted: 07/25/18 3:50 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
Looking at Syl’s junior year stats, McCowan’s are slightly better across the board but radically similar. Low assists, poor free throw shooter. Basically an inside player. I agree about her not being instinctive but also think Syl’s rookie numbers (10.5 ppg, 7.8 rpg) would be pretty reachable given the ridiculous wingspan, height and quick jumping. Looking at how different a player Syl is today (better passer, body control, post moves, can score away from the basket), McCowan’s upside projects well. There’s so much to work with. And she’s like 230 pounds.
I could equally Brown developing along Cambage lines. 6’7” 245 with similar finishing ability at that developmental stage. The addition of these post players to the league will probably alter the landscape of the league that much more. This will bring the league up to 5 teams with these kinds of post players. Seattle and LA also have shorter players with extreme wingspans (Stewie, Parker). Next year’s WNBA is going to be even more radical in terms of post play. Hopefully the Libs have some good offseason fortune. To keep pace with a changing league while getting back to their defensive/rebounding identity...they’ll need it. |
I was thinking about McCowan the other day, and I also came up with Fowles as a comp. Syl was very raw offensively when she came out of college. I still remember that 2008 semifinal game against Tennessee where she had numerous chances to give LSU some breathing room toward the end but kept missing bunnies. I also remember that in her third year we discussed on this board how Syl should be a MIP candidate (knowing it was unlikely to happen) because her offensive game had greatly improved. So, Fowles definitely entered the league as an offensive work-in-progress. However, she was able to contribute right away on defense and off the boards. I feel the same will be true for McCowan. Her combination of size and leaping ability will translate at the next level. She'll help someone's interior defense right away. I disagree with the idea that McCowan just waits for opponents to come by to block their shot. I've seen Teaira move around to cover for teammates. It's just that in the college game, you're allowed to stand in the paint and play goaltender. Griner did it, and it's probably the most effective way for a team to use their shotblocker. Sliding in and out of the lane is an adjustment McCowan will need to make as a pro, but she certainly has the mobility to do it.
As for Brown, I think she'll work out, but I don't feel as sure about her as McCowan. Brown relies more on muscling people out of the way. Not only is she slower with less leaping ability than McCowan, but Brown is also noticeably less fluid in the way she moves. Overall, I like Kalani, but I'm not convinced she'll be as impactful on defense and off the boards as McCowan. To me, it's not now versus later between these two players. I see it as offense now versus defense and rebounding now. Personally, I would take the defense and rebounding. |
Great points. I agree about the trait description, especially when you’re talking about being able to defend in space, which is an extremely important attribute in today’s WNBA for a couple of reasons. First, the schedule tends to be condensed and travel is tougher. So sometimes the best defensive strategy a coach can employ is switching every screen. That’s an area where McCowan would upgrade the Libs enormously. Not only would she be a better deterrent defending smaller players than any of our Cs right now, (taking a hobbled Stokes into account since her D has been pedestrian at best) but she could also recover and help in the lane much more quickly if needed.
And I think McCowan’s size (bigger built than Syl) is intriguing as well. I’d be happy to get Brown too. But McCowan is definitely growing on me. Her rebounding, mobility, length and athleticism will enable her to impact on D and rebounding from day 1. Possibly even more so than Syl.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 07/25/18 4:07 pm ::: |
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| If you guys jump to #1 there are gonna be so many Ewing jokes... |
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
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| Posted: 07/25/18 4:22 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| If you guys jump to #1 there are gonna be so many Ewing jokes... |
Lol yup. Right up to those who somehow think a pro sports league would rig a draft lottery.
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WNBA 09
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| Posted: 07/25/18 4:27 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| If you guys jump to #1 there are gonna be so many Ewing jokes... |
The Lib fans have went from Wanting "KLS , Durr to Brown now to McCowan" I think any player in the 1st round next season can help this liberty team. Guards need an improvement along with the posts.
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pilight
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| Posted: 07/25/18 4:31 pm ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
| If you guys jump to #1 there are gonna be so many Ewing jokes... |
Lol yup. Right up to those who somehow think a pro sports league would rig a draft lottery. |
And rig it in favor of an owner who moved his team to a 50 seat arena in the boonies at that.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 07/25/18 4:36 pm ::: |
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| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
| If you guys jump to #1 there are gonna be so many Ewing jokes... |
The Lib fans have went from Wanting "KLS , Durr to Brown now to McCowan" I think any player in the 1st round next season can help this liberty team. Guards need an improvement along with the posts. |
It really depends who you ask. But I think we’ve considered the fact we are likely to draft 4th, where both post players are likely to be gone. I’ve wanted a post player all along and have maintained that a wing player would help only along with the acquisition of a post player.
Thing is, we can only draft one. Our offense and defense are ranked 10th. Our offense is one point per possession out of eighth. Our defensive points per possession are closer to 11th than 9th. Our rebound percentage is 8th. Our free throw differential is last. It’s logical to figure a McCowan can improve each of those areas. It’s kind of hard to figure on getting such a player if your chances of drafting first are 11% and your chance of drafting second is another 14% though. That’s why the discussion has centered around so many players.
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GlennMacGrady
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| Posted: 07/25/18 6:28 pm ::: |
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I have no idea nor prediction as to who will be available for the Liberty to draft, but I do have opinions about both Brown and McCowan. Neither show elite player skills or future potentials to me. They both strike me as galumphing galoots, whose primary merits are size and bulk. Neither has the athleticism, floor running ability or low post shot sophistication of Fowles, Griner, Leslie, Charles, Wilson, Jones, Cambage, Dolson, or maybe even Vadeeva and Gulich.
I think the Liberty should take the best basketball athlete-scorer available. |
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WNBA 09
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| Posted: 07/25/18 6:35 pm ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
| If you guys jump to #1 there are gonna be so many Ewing jokes... |
The Lib fans have went from Wanting "KLS , Durr to Brown now to McCowan" I think any player in the 1st round next season can help this liberty team. Guards need an improvement along with the posts. |
It really depends who you ask. But I think we’ve considered the fact we are likely to draft 4th, where both post players are likely to be gone. I’ve wanted a post player all along and have maintained that a wing player would help only along with the acquisition of a post player.
Thing is, we can only draft one. Our offense and defense are ranked 10th. Our offense is one point per possession out of eighth. Our defensive points per possession are closer to 11th than 9th. Our rebound percentage is 8th. Our free throw differential is last. It’s logical to figure a McCowan can improve each of those areas. It’s kind of hard to figure on getting such a player if your chances of drafting first are 11% and your chance of drafting second is another 14% though. That’s why the discussion has centered around so many players. |
Gustaffson could be the steal of this draft she will still be around along with Brianna Turner , Jessica Shephard.
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 07/25/18 6:39 pm ::: |
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| Liberty need to focus on either Samuelson, Collier or Durr.
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Shades
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| Posted: 07/25/18 7:05 pm ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
| Liberty need to focus on either Samuelson, Collier or Durr. |
Because they'll have no choice picking at #4? Maybe so....
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 07/25/18 7:38 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
Looking at Syl’s junior year stats, McCowan’s are slightly better across the board but radically similar. Low assists, poor free throw shooter. Basically an inside player. I agree about her not being instinctive but also think Syl’s rookie numbers (10.5 ppg, 7.8 rpg) would be pretty reachable given the ridiculous wingspan, height and quick jumping. Looking at how different a player Syl is today (better passer, body control, post moves, can score away from the basket), McCowan’s upside projects well. There’s so much to work with. And she’s like 230 pounds.
I could equally Brown developing along Cambage lines. 6’7” 245 with similar finishing ability at that developmental stage. The addition of these post players to the league will probably alter the landscape of the league that much more. This will bring the league up to 5 teams with these kinds of post players. Seattle and LA also have shorter players with extreme wingspans (Stewie, Parker). Next year’s WNBA is going to be even more radical in terms of post play. Hopefully the Libs have some good offseason fortune. To keep pace with a changing league while getting back to their defensive/rebounding identity...they’ll need it. |
I was thinking about McCowan the other day, and I also came up with Fowles as a comp. Syl was very raw offensively when she came out of college. I still remember that 2008 semifinal game against Tennessee where she had numerous chances to give LSU some breathing room toward the end but kept missing bunnies. I also remember that in her third year we discussed on this board how Syl should be a MIP candidate (knowing it was unlikely to happen) because her offensive game had greatly improved. So, Fowles definitely entered the league as an offensive work-in-progress. However, she was able to contribute right away on defense and off the boards. I feel the same will be true for McCowan. Her combination of size and leaping ability will translate at the next level. She'll help someone's interior defense right away. I disagree with the idea that McCowan just waits for opponents to come by to block their shot. I've seen Teaira move around to cover for teammates. It's just that in the college game, you're allowed to stand in the paint and play goaltender. Griner did it, and it's probably the most effective way for a team to use their shotblocker. Sliding in and out of the lane is an adjustment McCowan will need to make as a pro, but she certainly has the mobility to do it.
As for Brown, I think she'll work out, but I don't feel as sure about her as McCowan. Brown relies more on muscling people out of the way. Not only is she slower with less leaping ability than McCowan, but Brown is also noticeably less fluid in the way she moves. Overall, I like Kalani, but I'm not convinced she'll be as impactful on defense and off the boards as McCowan. To me, it's not now versus later between these two players. I see it as offense now versus defense and rebounding now. Personally, I would take the defense and rebounding. |
PM your way.
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J-Spoon
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| Posted: 07/25/18 8:50 pm ::: |
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I think if NY can draft one of Brown or McCowan they kind of have to. NY's post situation is desperate and I'm not sure if there is way out of it with Free Agency.
With that said I do worry a little bit about what Glen has said. While I think both Brown and McCowan have decent celings I don't think they are sure things.
Could Brown be closer to J. Davenport than Cambage? Could McCowan be closer to McGhee-Stafford than Fowles? If they end up in NY I hope they reach their potential, I probably still pick either if they are available because of our post situation.
McCowan vs Brown, I go with Brown, Brown can still get rebounds but her soft touch and probable double digit scoring at the 5 wins me over. Charles in her time with the Liberty has never had a true post scorer play alongside her, and with Charles game moving to the high post and all the way out to the arc having a true center who can score on the low block is what I want more than a shot blocker.
OTOH our offense is in bad shape if we ended up at #3 and #4 and the bigs are gone having a true large lead/scoring guard like Durr with a 3 point shot, who can create her own shot and will probably score 12-15 point a game from day one is something else NY has lacked since Cappie we moved on from Cappie. Durr is also the perfect fit between Boyd and Nurse and allows Boyd and Nurse to do what they do best. (I feel like Durr is K. Mitchell in D. Deshields body).
After Durr I would probably go with KLS because her range and size at the sf spot would be another first for NY. KLS is also another perfect fit with Boyd and Nurse filling out the perimeter.
Ogunbowale who is probably my favorite of the 3 and who I think would make NY better is currently running 3rd of the 3 just because of her size, while she is a lot better than Rodgers, Hartley, Zellous and Prince she is also the most similar of the 3 perimeter choices looking to be available at #3 or #4.
Last edited by J-Spoon on 07/25/18 9:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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J-Spoon
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| Posted: 07/25/18 8:51 pm ::: |
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| More Good news Washington is joining Conn and Minny as possible teams that could fall to the lottery if LV climbs out and would also move NY up to 3rd worst two season record increasing NY lottery odds and spot.
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J-Spoon
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| Posted: 07/25/18 9:03 pm ::: |
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Fun hypothetical on this topic
the lottery doesn't change
1. Indy Brown 2. Chi McCowan 3. LV Durr
So NY has the #4 pick and looks to take KLS
Conn is happy that Ogwumike is healthy and with the combo of Chiney and A. Thomas C. Miller thinks KLS might be the perfect fit at the 3 with those two players (a major upgrade over Stricklen and Tuck with UConn pull and pedigree).
Conn offers NY J. Jones for the #4 pick KLS and Stokes (who fits well as a backup center withthe Sun).
In simpler terms KLS and Stokes for J. Jones
Should NY make the trade?
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 07/25/18 9:34 pm ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
PM your way. |
Reply sent.
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Rock Hard
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
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| Posted: 07/25/18 10:23 pm ::: |
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| J-Spoon wrote: |
Fun hypothetical on this topic
the lottery doesn't change
1. Indy Brown 2. Chi McCowan 3. LV Durr
So NY has the #4 pick and looks to take KLS
Conn is happy that Ogwumike is healthy and with the combo of Chiney and A. Thomas C. Miller thinks KLS might be the perfect fit at the 3 with those two players (a major upgrade over Stricklen and Tuck with UConn pull and pedigree).
Conn offers NY J. Jones for the #4 pick KLS and Stokes (who fits well as a backup center withthe Sun).
In simpler terms KLS and Stokes for J. Jones
Should NY make the trade? |
If J. Jones can duplicate the successful season she had last year... New York should pull that trigger.
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Come on. There’s definitely 1,000 unobstructed seats in the place! Actually now that I think about it...