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BCBG25
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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 Posted: 11/21/05 8:29 pm ::: Garnett to the Knicks? |
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From ESPN Insider:
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One source told ESPN.com that the New York Knicks had made Minnesota an offer that included the expiring contracts of Penny Hardaway ($15.7 million) and Antonio Davis ($13.9 million). But for such a trade to work under salary cap rules, the Knicks would also have to take back Sczcerbiak. While that deal would be stunningly lopsided talent-wise, it would relieve the Wolves of $102 million in salary obligations over the next three seasons, allowing them to enter the 2006 offseason with approximately $25 million of cap space.
One source close to several NBA players insisted that the viability of the Knicks' offer should not be dismissed, going so far as to say Garnett was making a private push through back channels to be dealt to New York and reunite with former teammate Stephon Marbury.
"I'd bet money he'll be wearing a Knicks uniform by the end of February," the source said. |
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harlem_basketball
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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| Posted: 11/21/05 10:06 pm ::: |
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Never trust ESPN Outsider.
They will have you believe this is new information when it was floating around all summer that Kevin was worried about where the Wolves were going.
I can't believe they make people subscribe for recycled information. Should be illegal.
Unless a lot changes, Kevin will most likely be out of Minnesota by the All Star break. The Knicks are contenders in the derby along with a couple of other teams. Right now it looks like it's between the Knicks, Pistons, and Nets.
There's always teams like Toronto, Charlotte, Boston or Atlanta but Stern would have a shit fit and I don't think Kevin wants to completely start all over.
I'd look for the Lakers and Bulls to be thrown in there at some point even if it's only to oil the rumor mill. The Nets don't want to do anything before the summer.
I wouldn't look for him to go to the Pistons unless he really wants to reunite with Flip that bad. Kevin has said repeatedly that he doesn't want to go to a ready made situation. He doesn't really want to leave Minnesota in the first place. He just wants them to act like they're committed to winning.
But they know their vision and his vision aren't the same and they see an opportunity to go in another direction if they must.
The hold up for the Knicks could be Davis. Part of getting him to the Knicks was telling him he probably wouldn't be traded before the end of the season. I'd look for the Knicks to switch him with Malik Rose or Mo Taylor and sweeten the deal with a pick or one of their young players other than Frye.
You could also see a smaller deal mid December to bring in Wally without Kevin. The Knicks have been trying to get him since his rookie year and they need him now more than ever.
I can't see McHale giving away Kevin AND Wally to Isiah of all people. Even getting one of them is going to cost the Knicks a pick that will most likely be a lottery pick or real close to it. If they get Kevin, it'll be with some stiff unless Isiah's game is that tight or he gives up Curry or Frye. So Knick fans can stop offering Hardaway, James and Barnes for KG and Wally.
The longer this goes on with Kevin pouring his heart out to Cheryl and Coach Thompson on TNT every couple of months, the more the Knicks are the team most capable of packaging the best deal for Kevin with any real chance of getting him. They're the only team that could make a run at him without leaving their whole roster in pieces. They have the expiring deals and Isiah the con man.
In today's NBA, expiring deals and the potential of next year signing a new superstar is more important than getting players you actully want out of the deal. Webber, Carter, and Shaq all got out of dodge on trades that never would have happened 10 years ago.
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hoopladreams
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| Posted: 11/21/05 10:36 pm ::: |
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Trading an uber-super-star like KG for cap space is crazy. Beyond crazy! Cap space is too unpredictable. The Bulls cleared major cap space in 2000 and our big free agent acquisition turned out to be...Ron Mercer. RON MERCER! We were supposed to have Duncan or TMac or Grant Hill...and we got RON MERCER!
Anyway, the Lakers are trying to clear cap space too so that they can sign big-name people this summer as well. Ummm...LA or Minneapolis? Hmm...I dunno, tough choice  .
Not to mention that the biggest free-agents have already re-upped with their teams...Yao and Amare. Who else can the T-Wolves sign that can replace KG? The rule is, you only trade superstar for superstar...not superstar for a bunch of good players. Their options would be severely limited.
They need to trade him for somebody. Like I said in the other thread...trade him for JONeal and Granger. Or trade him for Dirk. Trade him for a bonified superstar.
If Isaiah somehow pulls this off, he deserves GM of the Year for the next 10 years. If he can get KG and keep Marbury, Curry, the rookies and all the rest of the key Knickerbockers, then he is a genius.
Anyway, this trade is likely not gonna happen. There are 28 other teams that can put together better packages for KG... |
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harlem_basketball
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| Posted: 11/21/05 11:16 pm ::: |
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| hoopladreams wrote: |
Anyway, this trade is likely not gonna happen. There are 28 other teams that can put together better packages for KG... |
No there aren't.
No trade clauses. Veto trade clauses. Preferred cities clauses. You don't think every superstar in this league has one in his contract? There's a reason you rarely see star for star trades anymore unless both are unhappy. Last I checked everyone wasn't clamoring to go to Minnesota to reprise Kevin's role as the lone star. You can't just trade guys anymore. Then you have to think about the teams in the league.
Everyone doesn't want Kevin for one. Some teams aren't willing to blow up half their roster for one player who is coming up on the other side of 30. Otherwise Kevin would have been a Net a month ago for Jefferson and Carter. Neither side was willing to do it just yet. Carter's only playing well because of Kidd and the newfound attention. The Wolves don't know if he'll revert back to his old half man half a season self. And the entire league from the players to us employees know Richard is the most overrated 3 in the game.
Two, there is no such thing as equal value for Kevin Garnett. No such thing at all. Vince Carter was traded for a bunch of nothing. Shaq was traded for Caron Butler and Lamar Odom. Caron's not even in LA anymore so Shaq was traded for one of the most inconsistent players in the league, LO. Chris was traded for 97 players, 95 of which don't even belong in the league. The Wolves are not going to get equal value for Kevin. They know that. The league knows that. Fans can't seem to understand that.
Finally, Minnesota is willing to do right by Kevin. They know they screwed up with Spree, Flip and Cassell. They don't want the public relations nightmare of keeping him there if he's unhappy. A deal with LA was in the works during the offseason. Both the Lakers and Nets deals weren't done in part because Minnesota didn't want the cap obligations.
Odom was on his way to Minnesota. Phil Jackson saw Scottie in Lamar and the deal was dead. Unless the Wolves want Kwame or Phil wants to write another book with LO as the main character, the Lakers have nothing to offer. If the deal happened at this point it would be because Phil or Glen Taylor had a major change of heart.
Two weeks ago, the Wolves could have had Frye and expirings. The longer they wait, the less they get. Even without Frye, from a financial standpoint...'cause contrary to popular belief among fans, this is a business...the Knicks have the best package. The question is whether the Wolves want it but to think Kevin won't have a 75% say in where he goes is ridiculous. They might not even have a choice other than the conference given what Kevin wants and what the market is.
Teams don't just say, Kevin Garnett's on the market, let's trade our biggest star. If you're Larry Bird, why would you call McHale to trade Jermaine O'Neal when the Wolves are calling teams like the Knicks and only asking for expiring contracts? You think Larry doesn't know that? The Mavs? Every GM in the league? You think Thorn doesn't know he's better off if he waits until the offseason?
Cap space is golden in this league. It doesn't just mean potentially signing another superstar. That's money an owner doesn't have to pay. Every owner doesn't want to pay 70 million dollars for a roster. This isn't monopoly money we're talking about. Cap space isn't just space for the sake of improving a team. To think winning is the motivation for every team in the league is way off. Some like to go on the cheap if it means making a profit every year. See the Clippers before 2004.
If the Wolves really are ready to rebuild, it's not like Ben Wallace and Peja Stojakovic won't be available soon.
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hoopladreams
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| Posted: 11/22/05 12:03 am ::: |
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Whoa, harlem_basketball, that previous post was a great read 
I'll take your word on a lot of stuff cuz clearly you know a heckuva lot more than me, but I guess I just have a hard time believing that an organization like the t-wolves would be willing to give up KG for cap space without any kind of guarentee that there would be big-time free agents that could be signed with it. This is an organization that gave KG a 6-year, $127 million before those exorbitant contracts became the norm (and before the new CBA made them impossible). I don't see them as cheap. And if they're trying to avoid a public relations nightmare by trading an unhappy Garnett, would they be willing to create an even bigger pr fracas by being cheap and hoarding cap space? Probably not.
Anyway, I'm just talking off the cuff right now cuz I don't really know what I'm talking about. But I loved your last post and it was hella informative. Thank you for all the great info and insight . You gave me a lot more stuff to think about... |
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Admiral_Needa
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BCBG25
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| Posted: 11/22/05 7:58 am ::: |
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Whoa, I'll subscribe to harlem_basketball Insider instead
Good thing I'm not paying anything for that info 
Interesting, the Knicks situation resemble the Liberty situation in a lot of ways. A bunch of rookies and 2nd year players and still no cap flexibility.
I don't know if T-Mac can co-exist with KG, he's been doing his best to co-exist with Yao already and it ain't working. KG is a hard worker and NY loves them hard workers. It's the perfect fit. Too bad Zeke had to give Crawford that mammoth contract, otherwise it'd be great if we could dump him on Minny and take Wally as well. The team would look a lot like the Wolves of the late 90's, but it's worth trying, it's not like we're going anywhere and Larry needs veterans to be happy. A starting 5 of Marbury, Wally, Ariza, KG and Curry isn't half bad. What is bad is that that is my starting 5, Larry wouldn't start Ariza even tho the kid gets his system better than everyone on the team...and buys into it, which is even more important.
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harlem_basketball
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| Posted: 11/22/05 9:03 am ::: |
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Kevin won't go to a ready made situation if he has his way so you can count out any team that has already been mentioned as championship contenders. He still wants to be the franchise player and get his. He just doesn't want to have to play all five positions and coach.
Minnesota won't give him away to a contender either. Whoever it is in that case would have to be willing to give back a large piece, making most of those teams unlikely to do it.
The Knicks may have the best, most flexible package but the question is whether Minnesota takes it. They could do like Toronto did and take less for various reasons.
Kevin doesn't want to force his way out of Minnesota. He would much rather the Wolves make moves like they did 3 summers ago so he can win there. All things point to that not happening. I'm not saying there can't be some blockbuster deal where you see some other team willing to give up an All Star, but it would be amazing if there were.
If Trevor developed a decent jumper, he'd start consistently. The kid can't shoot. A lot of Larry's offense calls for Marbury to drive off of a pick and roll. Once he gets deep enough, he's supposed to kick it out to the open fowards. He can't penetrate if Ariza's man is sagging off of him. And Ariza can only cut once or twice before his man finally picks up on it. If he cuts too much at the wrong time, Marbs has nowhere to go. That's why all the shots Tayshaun Prince used to get are going to Malik Rose, Channing Frye and Tony Davis. The Knicks don't have a real small forward that can shoot so Steph has to kick it out to the 4's where Tayshaun used to be open for the 3 once Chauncey penetrated.
Larry doesn't have a rotation because he's not done. Don't listen to BSPN or the NY writers who don't even show up to the games. When Larry takes over a bad team, he tears them down and builds them back up. He breaks guys down to the point where they wonder if they can even play basketball. Then he teaches them and has them thinking they're the best team in the world. Notice how Larry's teams are always close off the court. He almost forces them to get to know each other. The Knicks haven't been this close as a group since Ewing and Oak were suiting up. He's sacrificing games to get the team to do it his way. He's also showcasing some players on behalf of Isiah.
Once he feels they're out of their old ways, he'll settle on his rotation and he'll let them just play. That's why you see Frye, Davis, Rose and Crawford's roles starting to get consistent. Marbs is starting to get it. That's why Richardson is so frustrated. His injuries have kept him from really being able to find his way into the system. If Larry can, he'd love to keep David Lee on the team and in the rotation. And you don't really think Jerome James is injured do you? Isiah's just waiting for dumb luck and some contending team in need of a 6 foul big man to take his contract so he can thank his lucky stars James is 7 feet.
Once Larry's ready, you'll start seeing the avalanche of trades he's notorious for pressuring GMs into. Eric Snow will probably be arriving shortly.
Can you see now why I think something is wrong with Coyle if she watched this man for 4 hours and didn't take notes?
Marshmellow Anthony is also on Isiah's radar so they say.
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hyperetic
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| Posted: 11/22/05 10:21 am ::: |
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| harlem_basketball wrote: |
Kevin won't go to a ready made situation if he has his way so you can count out any team that has already been mentioned as championship contenders. He still wants to be the franchise player and get his. He just doesn't want to have to play all five positions and coach.
Minnesota won't give him away to a contender either. Whoever it is in that case would have to be willing to give back a large piece, making most of those teams unlikely to do it.
The Knicks may have the best, most flexible package but the question is whether Minnesota takes it. They could do like Toronto did and take less for various reasons.
Kevin doesn't want to force his way out of Minnesota. He would much rather the Wolves make moves like they did 3 summers ago so he can win there. All things point to that not happening. I'm not saying there can't be some blockbuster deal where you see some other team willing to give up an All Star, but it would be amazing if there were.
If Trevor developed a decent jumper, he'd start consistently. The kid can't shoot. A lot of Larry's offense calls for Marbury to drive off of a pick and roll. Once he gets deep enough, he's supposed to kick it out to the open fowards. He can't penetrate if Ariza's man is sagging off of him. And Ariza can only cut once or twice before his man finally picks up on it. If he cuts too much at the wrong time, Marbs has nowhere to go. That's why all the shots Tayshaun Prince used to get are going to Malik Rose, Channing Frye and Tony Davis. The Knicks don't have a real small forward that can shoot so Steph has to kick it out to the 4's where Tayshaun used to be open for the 3 once Chauncey penetrated.
Larry doesn't have a rotation because he's not done. Don't listen to BSPN or the NY writers who don't even show up to the games. When Larry takes over a bad team, he tears them down and builds them back up. He breaks guys down to the point where they wonder if they can even play basketball. Then he teaches them and has them thinking they're the best team in the world. Notice how Larry's teams are always close off the court. He almost forces them to get to know each other. The Knicks haven't been this close as a group since Ewing and Oak were suiting up. He's sacrificing games to get the team to do it his way. He's also showcasing some players on behalf of Isiah.
Once he feels they're out of their old ways, he'll settle on his rotation and he'll let them just play. That's why you see Frye, Davis, Rose and Crawford's roles starting to get consistent. Marbs is starting to get it. That's why Richardson is so frustrated. His injuries have kept him from really being able to find his way into the system. If Larry can, he'd love to keep David Lee on the team and in the rotation. And you don't really think Jerome James is injured do you? Isiah's just waiting for dumb luck and some contending team in need of a 6 foul big man to take his contract so he can thank his lucky stars James is 7 feet.
Once Larry's ready, you'll start seeing the avalanche of trades he's notorious for pressuring GMs into. Eric Snow will probably be arriving shortly.
Can you see now why I think something is wrong with Coyle if she watched this man for 4 hours and didn't take notes?
Marshmellow Anthony is also on Isiah's radar so they say. |
So do you think that makes him a candidate for Atlanta? Joe Johnson is banking much loot but I don't think you can call him a franchise player. |
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BCBG25
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| Posted: 11/22/05 11:03 am ::: |
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| I am a fan of David Lee. A rookie averaging over 6 RPG in less than 15 MPG is money. I was impressed by his numbers during preseason, but I was kind of skeptical regarding his PT. He will be a core member of whatever Larry is doing in NY. I am really starting to like this team. I was totally devastated when they traded Cotton Bambi and Nenê, but that ultimately allowed them to trade for Marbury, so all we need now is a cohesive group to take off. I am pretty sure Larry knows what he's doing, not so sure about Zeke and sure as hell that Patty doesn't have a clue if she can't borrow a page from Larry's book.
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harlem_basketball
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| Posted: 11/22/05 11:51 am ::: |
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Atlanta's always a possibility, but they really don't have much to give other than Al Harrington. Nobody wants those young guys they have and Kevin would go from carrying one franchise to another.
Isiah knows what he's doing when it gets down to finding talent. His problem is finding talent that will work together. His draft record is stellar. His free agent record is terrible because he overspends. He had to trade Van Horn because Marbs refused to play with him and truth be told, as shady as Steph is, Keith is no walk in the park. He just gets a pass because he's quiet. Isiah didn't do much with the Marbs trade because he just signed off on it by taking Penny's contract. Various Marbury deals were already on the table before he got there.
Everyone's talking about what will happen if Larry and Isiah clash over Steph. Don't worry about Steph. Larry will fall in love with him and turn him into a 20 and 12 guy who plays defense and Steph will remain a Knick. The real battle between Isiah and Larry will be over David Lee. Larry has loved him since he was at Florida. He plays Larry's way and he has Mason, Oakley, Rodman hybrid written all over him. Rebounding isn't even the half of his game.
Isiah isn't adverse to trading anyone if he thinks it will make the team better. Isiah doesn't get emotionally attatched to guys. To him, they're like chess pieces. Larry is the exact opposite. Once Larry starts loving his players, you don't want to be the GM. He's worse than a fan. Once he starts hating them, you can't get rid of them fast enough until you realize he's the one you need to get rid of. By that time he's usually already plotted his next destination.
Coyle just doesn't know. There is a reason why his practices and clinics are well attended. And he is always willing to teach anyone. Player, coach, fan, male, female. If you can't learn something from him, you just can't learn. That's like someone playing with Magic and not becoming a better player.
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Admiral_Needa
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Admiral_Needa
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missjoy28
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| Posted: 11/22/05 2:02 pm ::: |
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| KG to the Knicks! Yeah right! Isiah changes more rosters more than any GM I know. This is the main reason why the Knicks have losing season. Team chemistry and they are still over the salary keep.I was laughing when Thomas said that he changes rosters because he wants to win a title. With this team, how are you going to win a title with this squad. Isiah is on something alright. Glad Joe Dumars isn't like him.
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hyperetic
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| Posted: 11/22/05 2:17 pm ::: |
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| Let me throw another team in the mix. They may not have a snowball's chance in hell but what about the Hornets. They are a team on the brink. I don't know what they have to give but I think if they get a legit guy like KG it would put them over the top. |
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This Garnett for Hardaway and Antonio Davis deal sounds like something Scott Layden would propose...
Dallas might have more to offer MIN in return, but the team can't play defense, and defense wins championships. HOU unfortunately has a bad habit of not aquiring contracts for the sole purpose of trading them when they expire... One of the main reasons why they lost out on getting Baron Davis for themselves...