| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15734
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
 Posted: 02/18/22 1:42 pm ::: |
Reply  |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| .....Yet people lash out at my post as if I was calling for security to escort her off the campus this morning. |
Umm, I didn't hear/see/feel any *lashing out* of any sort - just opinions as to why she still deserves a 'grace period'.
_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
|
|
HomerCecil
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 1209
Back to top |
| Posted: 02/18/22 2:37 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Eh, I didn't think people were lashing out. I also think this thread can both be "people on the hot seat right now" and "uh oh, this is not a good sign for the long-term future of this coach," which is what I think you meant by Lawson.
(Seriously, how in the hell did they lose to Virginia?)
|
|
GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8225
Location: Heisenberg
Back to top |
| Posted: 02/18/22 3:26 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| How long is Kara Lawson's grace period? |
Because of her inertial celebrity status, I'd say five years even if she has losing records. I don't expect her to have losing records, however. Duke is one of the few prestige schools that can self-recruit above average talent even apart from the coach. |
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7822
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 02/18/22 3:57 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
All of which of course is a why I said:
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| I assume she's not on the hot seat this year, . . . |
And posed a QUESTION:
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| How long is Kara Lawson's grace period? |
Yet people lash out at my post as if I was calling for security to escort her off the campus this morning.
It seems like a legitimate question for this thread, considering the hype surrounding her hire and Duke's fading performance. Unless someone is proposing an entirely new "too soon for the hot seat but on the watch list" thread, which seems kind of pointless to me. It's not like this thread is being overwhelmed with current hot seat discussion. |
How long was Joanne P. McCallie's "grace period"? I don't exactly remember, but RAF can certainly tell us. I know it felt like at least 15 years but couldn't possibly have been. Or maybe it was. Anyway, Duke moves with, ahem. all deliberate speed, apparently.
Grace periods usually last at least 4-5 years.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 02/18/22 4:49 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| summertime blues wrote: |
How long was Joanne P. McCallie's "grace period"? I don't exactly remember, but RAF can certainly tell us. I know it felt like at least 15 years but couldn't possibly have been. Or maybe it was. Anyway, Duke moves with, ahem. all deliberate speed, apparently.
Grace periods usually last at least 4-5 years. |
McCallie didn't need a grace period. She was succesful from day 1, finishing 3, 3, 1,1,1,1, 2 in the ACC her first 7 years, with 4 Elite 8s. Her first year she was 10-4 in conference, not 7-11 as Duke is likely to finish this year. It was only at the very end of her tenure that the wheels came off, unless you think winning the ACC but not making a FF is reasonable grounds for dismissal.
Grace periods may have been 4 or 5 years in the past, primarily because contracts ran that long and most schools didn't care enough about WBB to pay an early buyout. I'm not sure that's true at high profile programs anymore, at least I hope it's not.
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7822
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 02/18/22 4:54 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Kara has a ways to go to pick Duke up out of the mess Coach P left behind. She was an abusive mess, thanks to her unmedicated (at least for awhile) bipolar disorder, and so was the program. It takes a few years to rebuild trust in a program that's gone down that far, let alone anything else. And with that I will yield the mic to people closer to the program.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 02/18/22 5:17 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| I don't expect her to have losing records, however. Duke is one of the few prestige schools that can self-recruit above average talent even apart from the coach. |
That suggests lack of talent is the root of Duke's problem. I'm not sure that's the issue. They have 6 or 7 McDonalds AAs and other highly rated recruits on the roster. They certainly have a lot more talent than UVA.
|
|
FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 3511
Back to top |
|
PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020
Posts: 426
Back to top |
| Posted: 02/20/22 10:42 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Hope that his suspension and Scoggin's leaving the team are not related.
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7822
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
|
undersized_post
Joined: 01 Mar 2021
Posts: 2864
Back to top |
|
PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020
Posts: 426
Back to top |
|
Marquette Fan
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 3575
Back to top |
| Posted: 02/20/22 10:03 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| I have to wonder about Kurt Godlevske at Butler - they are 1-23 this season overall and 0-15 in the Big East. In 8 seasons at Butler counting this season, he only has a winning record in two of those seasons.
|
|
NoDakSt
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 4929
Back to top |
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
|
PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020
Posts: 426
Back to top |
|
readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7370
Location: Durham, NC
Back to top |
| Posted: 02/21/22 1:44 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| summertime blues wrote: |
| Kara has a ways to go to pick Duke up out of the mess Coach P left behind. She was an abusive mess, thanks to her unmedicated (at least for awhile) bipolar disorder, and so was the program. It takes a few years to rebuild trust in a program that's gone down that far, let alone anything else. And with that I will yield the mic to people closer to the program. |
Thank you Summertime for bringing here what should have been painfully obvious to those without any bias. The entire DWB program was decimated and demoralized top to bottom from the "abusive mess" that was JPM. Most/all of the ongoing support staff stayed throughout her reign of terror and they're working hard to regain their mojo.
Only 4 players recruited by JPM remain on the squad and none are "go-to" type players by any measure. Coming in late (late summer before season's start), Kara only retained one recruit from JPM's last class and managed to find one recruit out of high school for this season. Next season is the first one we'll get to see a full class recruited by Kara.
The transfers in represent an upgrade over the bare cupboard JPM left. Some received accolades in high school, but none had been close to star level before transferring in. Yes, "second team All B10" and nice playing in the NCAA tournament show they are decent players, but not close to being star or "go to" level players. In addition, the players who played under JPM basically did not have any halfway decent coaching before Kara & Company arrived, but rather had bad habits and low morale that had to be undone.
JPM walked into a quality group of players, then turned out to recruit well. But, having successive top 5 recruiting classes led to exactly ZERO Final Fours, after Coach G had gotten to FOUR FF's in her last 8 years. To say JPM underachieved compared to the level of recruits would be a vast understatement.
Instead JPM pulled stunts such as complaining the tournament sent Duke to play her former team instead of preparing the team to actually play that game. In a game vs perennial softie Penn, JPM spent the pregame pitching a hissy fit over lack of access to a tennis court for herself instead of getting the team ready to play and they lost the game. This is all in addition to personally verbally attacking players with things like "I'd rather vomit than play with you" and "you're such a poor leader, you'll never make it into Medical School, let alone become an MD." Add in that JPM refused to ever take responsibility for poor performance and the professional longterm staff had to reach deep to find a positive spin. How any of them coped with the utter lack of professionalism of the head coach is beyond my ability to guess. I do know how excited they were when Kara arrived and began a new era of professionalism. They knew Duke had been the laughingstock of all who follow the sport closely and their own professional careers were affected by association.
It takes awhile to change and build an entire positive culture from a bare cupboard of players and demoralized professional support staff.
Are Duke fans upset and embarrassed by the loss to Virginia and all around less than stellar play in the ACC? Absolutely. But every fan of the program is looking forward to see what Kara can do over time. The suggestion that she belongs in this thread simply shows bias of the poster. That is all. It is utterly ridiculous but not unexpected based on past experience of biased ridiculousness of the poster.
Get a grip. Let Kara coach a season with some recruits she picked and a season she doesn't have to start from ground zero in building a positive culture.
_________________
Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
|
|
goforit77
Joined: 09 Jan 2015
Posts: 126
Back to top |
| Posted: 02/22/22 6:46 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
It doesn't help that Courtney Banghart is doing a better job down the road at hated UNC.
Are you seriously comparing CB who is in her third year to Kara?
I live in NC and plenty of Tar Heel fans are dissatisfied with where they are.
They play a soft non-conference schedule and they think they should be closer to elite which shares the same type of delusion as the thought that Kara is anywhere near a hot seat.
|
|
PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020
Posts: 426
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/03/22 9:28 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| Wondering how soon after the conference tournaments ADs will start moving on replacing some coaches. Two of the hottest seats:UVA (Thompson) plays Wake in the ACC tourney and Butler (Godlevske) plays Seton Hall in the Big East tourney. I think both UVA and Butler will lose. If they do, will announcements come quickly?
|
|
Marquette Fan
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 3575
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/03/22 10:01 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| PG4ever wrote: |
| Wondering how soon after the conference tournaments ADs will start moving on replacing some coaches. Two of the hottest seats:UVA (Thompson) plays Wake in the ACC tourney and Butler (Godlevske) plays Seton Hall in the Big East tourney. I think both UVA and Butler will lose. If they do, will announcements come quickly? |
If Butler doesn’t take action, it shows they don’t care at all about women’s basketball. They won one game all season and lost every league game. Their season should be over tomorrow - I give them zero chance to beat Seton Hall.
|
|
purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 2819
Location: Indiana
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/03/22 10:33 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| Marquette Fan wrote: |
| PG4ever wrote: |
| Wondering how soon after the conference tournaments ADs will start moving on replacing some coaches. Two of the hottest seats:UVA (Thompson) plays Wake in the ACC tourney and Butler (Godlevske) plays Seton Hall in the Big East tourney. I think both UVA and Butler will lose. If they do, will announcements come quickly? |
If Butler doesn’t take action, it shows they don’t care at all about women’s basketball. They won one game all season and lost every league game. Their season should be over tomorrow - I give them zero chance to beat Seton Hall. |
I don't understand how Butler can be that bad given Hinkle Fieldhouse, location in Indy, the Big East membership, the academic reputation, the fertile recruiting grounds within 3-4 hours, etc. I understand the proximity to Notre Dame/Indiana/Purdue/Louisville/Ohio State/DePaul, but there are plenty of excellent student-athletes in the region.
|
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15734
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/03/22 11:18 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| purduefanatic wrote: |
| Marquette Fan wrote: |
| PG4ever wrote: |
| Wondering how soon after the conference tournaments ADs will start moving on replacing some coaches. Two of the hottest seats:UVA (Thompson) plays Wake in the ACC tourney and Butler (Godlevske) plays Seton Hall in the Big East tourney. I think both UVA and Butler will lose. If they do, will announcements come quickly? |
If Butler doesn’t take action, it shows they don’t care at all about women’s basketball. They won one game all season and lost every league game. Their season should be over tomorrow - I give them zero chance to beat Seton Hall. |
I don't understand how Butler can be that bad given Hinkle Fieldhouse, location in Indy, the Big East membership, the academic reputation, the fertile recruiting grounds within 3-4 hours, etc. I understand the proximity to Notre Dame/Indiana/Purdue/Louisville/Ohio State/DePaul, but there are plenty of excellent student-athletes in the region. |
I think you just pointed out the largest challenge, COMPOUNDED by an administration that doesn't really care if their wbb program is competitive. And sadly, that typically comes down to budgets.
Just look at those powerhouses you named. If elite talent is recruited by these powerhouses - or beyond, when talent like Maddie Scherr and Sydney Parrish go west to Oregon, etc. - they'll be lucky to get a few mid-level players.
It seems as if it will always be that way; there will always be the teams like Delaware State (who won ZERO games this entire season), Canisius, or Chicago St. that just don't have a bright future for growth.
_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
|
|
purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 2819
Location: Indiana
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/03/22 12:57 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Howee wrote: |
| purduefanatic wrote: |
| Marquette Fan wrote: |
| PG4ever wrote: |
| Wondering how soon after the conference tournaments ADs will start moving on replacing some coaches. Two of the hottest seats:UVA (Thompson) plays Wake in the ACC tourney and Butler (Godlevske) plays Seton Hall in the Big East tourney. I think both UVA and Butler will lose. If they do, will announcements come quickly? |
If Butler doesn’t take action, it shows they don’t care at all about women’s basketball. They won one game all season and lost every league game. Their season should be over tomorrow - I give them zero chance to beat Seton Hall. |
I don't understand how Butler can be that bad given Hinkle Fieldhouse, location in Indy, the Big East membership, the academic reputation, the fertile recruiting grounds within 3-4 hours, etc. I understand the proximity to Notre Dame/Indiana/Purdue/Louisville/Ohio State/DePaul, but there are plenty of excellent student-athletes in the region. |
I think you just pointed out the largest challenge, COMPOUNDED by an administration that doesn't really care if their wbb program is competitive. And sadly, that typically comes down to budgets.
Just look at those powerhouses you named. If elite talent is recruited by these powerhouses - or beyond, when talent like Maddie Scherr and Sydney Parrish go west to Oregon, etc. - they'll be lucky to get a few mid-level players.
It seems as if it will always be that way; there will always be the teams like Delaware State (who won ZERO games this entire season), Canisius, or Chicago St. that just don't have a bright future for growth. |
There are literally hundreds of players from Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan and Kentucky that can help them. You only need to get a couple/year. I'm not talking about being a national championship contender. I'm talking about just being competitive at this point.
|
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15734
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/03/22 2:06 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| purduefanatic wrote: |
There are literally hundreds of players from Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan and Kentucky that can help them. You only need to get a couple/year. I'm not talking about being a national championship contender. I'm talking about just being competitive at this point. |
In looking at Butler's roster, they've gotten MORE THAN a couple/year, if you don't need *elite* players; I counted 7 or 8 that led their states' prep ballers in ppg, were nationally rated 3 or 4 star recruits, and some of the better ones came from WA, VA, LA or Australia. I'd say, with GOOD COACHING, that's enough talent to be way better than bottom-of-the-pile.
_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
|
|
funkdafied
Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 58
Back to top |
|
|
|
What did I miss?
Well, what had happened was... 