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Indiana Fever 2021
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PUmatty



Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 08/27/21 3:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
The difference between New York and teams like Indiana & Atlanta – considering they were all at the basement a year ago, New York even more so – is that New York was ultra-aggressive and insistent on getting/paying for top free agent talent, namely Howard & Laney. (Betting on Whitcomb to be more productive in a bigger role also paid off, too.) It may not be coming together this year, but one can certainly detect a clearer path forward into title contention than Indiana & Atlanta – and the current standings reflect that. Because while New York was getting top talent, Indiana got several middling free agents who were never gonna have the collective talent to overachieve into anything close to a title contender, especially considering neither Teaira McCowan nor Kelsey Mitchell are anything close to superstars. Atlanta imo did a little better than Indiana in free agency, but not by much – and with the Carter limbo situation combined with other absences, the Dream have now become just as messy as the Fever (though that's neither here nor there). Lottery picks oozing with potential are great pieces to build up around, but you need top veteran talent to win in this League, period.


Do you think that Indiana didn't try to sign Howard or Laney? I would be shocked if they didn't. But this is another way that top draft picks matter. Would you rather go play with: Ionescu or Tiffany Mitchell?

(Setting aside for a minute that Howard and Laney were traded for Deveraux Petters and waived, respectively, by Indiana in past seasons. Catchings isn't the first terrible GM we have had.)


PUmatty



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PostPosted: 08/27/21 3:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
myrtle wrote:
I look at this team and just don't know what to say. They are such a mess. How can they improve and become truly competitive? Even before all the injury outs they weren't good. Does anybody have solid ideas that are actually doable?


Better luck in the draft. That's it. That's the answer.

I do think there's a little more to it than that, although that would obviously be huge. New York have gone from abysmal to at least half-decent largely via low picks, free agency and dealing (with Sabrina Ionescu on top, but it's not like she's the one who's single-handedly dragged them upwards). The new cap looks like it might help a bit as well, because teams genuinely can't just pay every vet the max. That should force talent to spread out more than it used to if players want to get paid (and negate some of the advantage that cities like New York and LA have). It also makes your space more valuable, like when they got a pick for taking Sims off Minnesota's hands (and still screwed up the next part of that deal by insta-waiving her).

But to take advantage of stuff like that, you have to not give Jantel Lavender and Danielle Robinson nearly a million dollars in combined guaranteed money. You wait until there's someone out there actually worth giving your money to who wants to take it.

So basically yes, draft luck, but doing smart GM stuff can also help.


I oversimplified. I am not sure I would trust Catchings with the No. 1 pick if they got it.


Stormeo



Joined: 14 Jul 2019
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PostPosted: 08/27/21 4:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
Do you think that Indiana didn't try to sign Howard or Laney? I would be shocked if they didn't. But this is another way that top draft picks matter. Would you rather go play with: Ionescu or Tiffany Mitchell?

(Setting aside for a minute that Howard and Laney were traded for Deveraux Petters and waived, respectively, by Indiana in past seasons. Catchings isn't the first terrible GM we have had.)

Considering it’s Catchings we’re talking about, I personally would not be shocked if she didn’t lay it all out on the line to get talent like that. When it comes to this front office, you have to wonder how much help Catchings & Co. thought the team needed entering free agency. Maybe they thought McCowan & Cox would be further along in their development than they ended up being, and that a healthy Vivians coming off of a normal overseas season would be able to contribute semi-consistently. And I mean, Jantel Lavender’s signing was announced on the first day of free agency – DRob’s on the second. Now I’ll admit, it’s possible that things happened so fast in the preceding negotiation weeks, where the top free agents had already agreed to deals with other teams, that Catchings had to act fast on who was still available. However, it’s also possible that she was only focused on who she ended up signing from the very beginning.



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Randy



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: 08/27/21 6:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
The difference between New York and teams like Indiana & Atlanta – considering they were all at the basement a year ago, New York even more so – is that New York was ultra-aggressive and insistent on getting/paying for top free agent talent, namely Howard & Laney. (Betting on Whitcomb to be more productive in a bigger role also paid off, too.) It may not be coming together this year, but one can certainly detect a clearer path forward into title contention than Indiana & Atlanta – and the current standings reflect that. Because while New York was getting top talent, Indiana got several middling free agents who were never gonna have the collective talent to overachieve into anything close to a title contender, especially considering neither Teaira McCowan nor Kelsey Mitchell are anything close to superstars. Atlanta imo did a little better than Indiana in free agency, but not by much – and with the Carter limbo situation combined with other absences, the Dream have now become just as messy as the Fever (though that's neither here nor there). Lottery picks oozing with potential are great pieces to build up around, but you need top veteran talent to win in this League, period.


Most teams are limited in cap space every year, or blow it quickly. In the end the best players probably all get offers at or close to max - so it comes down to where they would like to live and what team the like the best. NY is highly desirable destination for FA's. NY is one of the worlds greatest cities - the kind of place anyone would want to live (esp. if their living quarters are paid for). NY had Sabrina Ionescu and good players are attracted by other star players.

Indy and Atlanta have had none of the above. Indy and Atlanta have also been in the lottery most of the time for years now. Lacking the glamor of NY (and most other WNBA cities) the Dream and Fever had to overpay for the second rate FA's they got. Dream couldn't even sign their best player (Laney). To make matters worse - Atlanta made some terrible choices: NoGlory, Hawkins, Stricklen, and Parker all of whom have been pretty useless up to this point (along with most of the existing players.) Atlanta's best FA signings in 2021 were Crystal Bradford and Sims. What FA is going to want to come to Atlanta or Indy next year? Probably nobody very good. What player will want to join a team that had 3 coaches in year? Or has Stanley as head coach?


readyAIMfire53



Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 5956
Location: Durham, NC


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PostPosted: 08/27/21 6:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
The difference between New York and teams like Indiana & Atlanta – considering they were all at the basement a year ago, New York even more so – is that New York was ultra-aggressive and insistent on getting/paying for top free agent talent, namely Howard & Laney. (Betting on Whitcomb to be more productive in a bigger role also paid off, too.) It may not be coming together this year, but one can certainly detect a clearer path forward into title contention than Indiana & Atlanta – and the current standings reflect that. Because while New York was getting top talent, Indiana got several middling free agents who were never gonna have the collective talent to overachieve into anything close to a title contender, especially considering neither Teaira McCowan nor Kelsey Mitchell are anything close to superstars. Atlanta imo did a little better than Indiana in free agency, but not by much – and with the Carter limbo situation combined with other absences, the Dream have now become just as messy as the Fever (though that's neither here nor there). Lottery picks oozing with potential are great pieces to build up around, but you need top veteran talent to win in this League, period.


Most teams are limited in cap space every year, or blow it quickly. In the end the best players probably all get offers at or close to max - so it comes down to where they would like to live and what team the like the best. NY is highly desirable destination for FA's. NY is one of the worlds greatest cities - the kind of place anyone would want to live (esp. if their living quarters are paid for). NY had Sabrina Ionescu and good players are attracted by other star players.

Indy and Atlanta have had none of the above. Indy and Atlanta have also been in the lottery most of the time for years now. Lacking the glamor of NY (and most other WNBA cities) the Dream and Fever had to overpay for the second rate FA's they got. Dream couldn't even sign their best player (Laney). To make matters worse - Atlanta made some terrible choices: NoGlory, Hawkins, Stricklen, and Parker all of whom have been pretty useless up to this point (along with most of the existing players.) Atlanta's best FA signings in 2021 were Crystal Bradford and Sims. What FA is going to want to come to Atlanta or Indy next year? Probably nobody very good. What player will want to join a team that had 3 coaches in year? Or has Stanley as head coach?


Agree that NY and LaLa Land are top destinations, but isn't Atlanta a pretty cool place also? 9 months of nice weather and then playing inside for the summer. And plenty of historically significant sights. Admitedly, the Dream organization has not made the best decisions, but look at LA...drowning in top/down stupidity.



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dreamfan11



Joined: 11 Oct 2017
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PostPosted: 08/28/21 11:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
The difference between New York and teams like Indiana & Atlanta – considering they were all at the basement a year ago, New York even more so – is that New York was ultra-aggressive and insistent on getting/paying for top free agent talent, namely Howard & Laney. (Betting on Whitcomb to be more productive in a bigger role also paid off, too.) It may not be coming together this year, but one can certainly detect a clearer path forward into title contention than Indiana & Atlanta – and the current standings reflect that. Because while New York was getting top talent, Indiana got several middling free agents who were never gonna have the collective talent to overachieve into anything close to a title contender, especially considering neither Teaira McCowan nor Kelsey Mitchell are anything close to superstars. Atlanta imo did a little better than Indiana in free agency, but not by much – and with the Carter limbo situation combined with other absences, the Dream have now become just as messy as the Fever (though that's neither here nor there). Lottery picks oozing with potential are great pieces to build up around, but you need top veteran talent to win in this League, period.


Do you think that Indiana didn't try to sign Howard or Laney? I would be shocked if they didn't. But this is another way that top draft picks matter. Would you rather go play with: Ionescu or Tiffany Mitchell?

(Setting aside for a minute that Howard and Laney were traded for Deveraux Petters and waived, respectively, by Indiana in past seasons. Catchings isn't the first terrible GM we have had.)


HERE IS THE DEAL: NY had more money available in their cap with low level players and the youngest roster - they could afford higher contracts. ATL did offer Laney max, but she wanted to be closer to home; the Coach for NY was an assistant at MIN when Howard was there - there are rumblings that he was interfering last summer in the bubble on getting her to NY. In fact, back to ATL, they offered her max as well, but she ONLY wanted to go to NY, part of that due to personal reasons (family); also, if you are Joe Tsi, it is not the have's and the have nots - Joe has the Players on the Net's side engaged; he is creating new spaces for the team and he can promise things other teams can not. If you have talent and can make more in the off season because of deals and the NBA, why play elsewhere? The GM In NY is not a guru by any stretch - in fact, most in the W question his ability. That said, unfortunately, it is the same for Catchings - her selections over the last years, the trades, the cuts - ugh! Makes no sense. NY is lucky ATL has has three coaches, trouble with CC, Parker out with pregnancy, Hayes playing limited games and an owner that made them pick Airee rather than the likely ROY currently playing for NY. Lots of undercurrent - this is not like making a sandwich - it is not simple layer, there are stories and reasons for every action, move and trade in the W.


undersized_post



Joined: 01 Mar 2021
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Location: midwest/indiana/iowa


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PostPosted: 09/13/21 8:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Any gossip or guesses as to what personal reasons have kept Gondrezick out for so many games?


pilight



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PostPosted: 09/13/21 8:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Jessica Breland will miss the rest of the 2021 season with a left thumb injury



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Milks26



Joined: 25 Mar 2021
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PostPosted: 09/13/21 9:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

undersized_post wrote:
Any gossip or guesses as to what personal reasons have kept Gondrezick out for so many games?


When I heard she left 1st thing that came to my mind was her sister's DV case against Steelers QB or she might be preggo.



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root_thing



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: 09/13/21 10:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

While I was looking up Kalabrya Gondrezick's spat with husband Dwayne Haskins, I stumbled across the fact that Kysre missed the end of her freshman season at Michigan due to personal reasons. Then she missed most of her first season at West Virginia after taking a leave for personal reasons. So, this seems to be a pattern with Kysre.

We know she, her sister, and her mother got into a horrific car accident when Kysre was 14. Supposedly, Kalabrya even flatlined briefly in the ambulance. It's possible something like this could have a long-term effect either physically or psychologically. Just tossing it out there. But personal leaves at three straight stops definitely sends up a red flag.



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Stormeo



Joined: 14 Jul 2019
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PostPosted: 09/14/21 12:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
personal leaves at three straight stops definitely sends up a red flag.


And yet, the Fever overdrafted her as a Lottery pick anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



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myrtle



Joined: 02 May 2008
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PostPosted: 09/14/21 7:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
root_thing wrote:
personal leaves at three straight stops definitely sends up a red flag.


And yet, the Fever overdrafted her as a Lottery pick anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


It wasn't just red flags over behaviour. Her play/skill wasn't a first round pick anyway. The totally weird thing is that she likely would have been there for them in the second round. The thing that makes it look not quite so bad (unlike Dallas taking Akhator) is that there haven't been standout performances from anybody taken later...although some of them might have had a better chance at playing time if they had gone to Indiana.


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