| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
Posts: 8940
Back to top |
|
elsie
Joined: 08 Apr 2016
Posts: 276
Back to top |
 Posted: 04/13/21 8:04 pm ::: |
Reply  |
|
now this is a conundrum....
do we just tell our little girls not to expect excelling at sports or trying for a college scholarship because no way in hell are they going to beat out most bio males....males with male dna, which can not be changed, and high levels of testosterone as well , despite "treatments"....
how many female track stars will not be getting scholarships now....
why aren't women standing up for girls and other women?
do we watch womens sports because they play like men?.....not me....otherwise just watch the men, period....
wake up folks....this trend will destroy our young girls and womens chances.....it is about scholarship/prestige/respect/ self esteem and MONEY....
|
|
adamj95
Joined: 09 May 2014
Posts: 2302
Location: East Grand Forks, MN
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/13/21 8:27 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Unless i’m mistaken, how many elite transgender male to female athletes are there out there? There can’t be many.
_________________
4 time WNBA Champion, 3rd all time in Assists, Minnesota's own: LINDSAY WHALEN.
|
|
Hoopsmom
Joined: 05 Apr 2017
Posts: 680
Back to top |
|
undersized_post
Joined: 01 Mar 2021
Posts: 2864
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/13/21 10:59 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| elsie wrote: |
| t is about scholarship/prestige/respect/ self esteem and MONEY.... |
Do you know any trans women athletes and can personally speak to what their motivations are? If not I suggest you take a step back.
|
|
NFL1
Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 144
Location: Ithaca, NY
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/14/21 7:40 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| adamj95 wrote: |
| Unless i’m mistaken, how many elite transgender male to female athletes are there out there? There can’t be many. |
As Megan Rapinoe said: I've played sports with transwomen and the world has not combusted... I see this as a non-issue. As many say - why would anyone choose to be LGBTQ? Life is so much harder based on all the discrimination, one would not choose to transition just for prestige, money, anything!
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11139
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/14/21 8:55 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| NFL1 wrote: |
| adamj95 wrote: |
| Unless i’m mistaken, how many elite transgender male to female athletes are there out there? There can’t be many. |
As Megan Rapinoe said: I've played sports with transwomen and the world has not combusted... I see this as a non-issue. As many say - why would anyone choose to be LGBTQ? Life is so much harder based on all the discrimination, one would not choose to transition just for prestige, money, anything! |
I agree. We're talking about a very small pool of people to begin with, and then an even tinier percentage are interested in athletics.
It is, however, a great cultural flashpoint for conservatives who want to create controversy over their concern about the blurring of traditional gender roles, and traditional values in general.
_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7821
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/14/21 10:34 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| This is such a BIG SCARE issue, and the hate is entirely directed at transwomen. Or has anyone not noticed that? Nobody says anything about transmen, who might be pretty good at sports like cross-country, being small and light-boned, or the lighter weights in wrestling....because those sports "don't count"...at least not in the minds of the dinosaurs making the stupid laws. It's just another way of policing women's bodies, although they call it "protecting our girls" (funny, that), and you DO NOT want to get me started on that issue, which doesn't belong here anyway.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
PlayBally'all
Joined: 17 Oct 2013
Posts: 271
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/14/21 12:28 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| NFL1 wrote: |
| adamj95 wrote: |
| Unless i’m mistaken, how many elite transgender male to female athletes are there out there? There can’t be many. |
As Megan Rapinoe said: I've played sports with transwomen and the world has not combusted... I see this as a non-issue. As many say - why would anyone choose to be LGBTQ? Life is so much harder based on all the discrimination, one would not choose to transition just for prestige, money, anything! |
I understand what you are saying, but the issue of "choice" is a grey area as it relates to someone that is truly trans. Many will point out that deciding to transition is by its very definition a choice. Being trans means taking drugs that alter the body's physical traits, in addition to making surgical alterations to the body in order to align that person's physical appearance with their mental disposition.
I am in no way trivializing their plight. However, I do believe that their argument conflicts in many ways with the arguments made by gay and lesbian men and women(the gay community) for acceptance. The gay community has long argued that they should be accepted for who they are and the number one reason for that has been that they had no choice in the matter. They were born wired that way. It is difficult to argue that being gay is not something that should be corrected while also arguing that trans men and women are correcting some sort of birth defect.
Unfortunately, the far right is using this very complicated issue to scare a large portion of the population. Even though their motivation is known, the issues do persist and if the only answers come from those that are stirring the controversy, those answers control the debate.
My personal opinion is that protecting women's sports is important. While I don't believe that the number of trans athletes is so great as to impact the competitive nature of female sports overall, I can understand the arguments made by female athletes that argue against their participation. Being an athlete and having the talent to play competitive sports has never been a circumstance where everyone starts at the same place. By its nature, it isn't always fair. One kid can work harder than everyone else, but never grow past 5'4", while another can be 6'4" with the ability to pivot and have scholarship offers.
|
|
undersized_post
Joined: 01 Mar 2021
Posts: 2864
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/14/21 1:02 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| PlayBally'all wrote: |
I understand what you are saying, but the issue of "choice" is a grey area as it relates to someone that is truly trans. Many will point out that deciding to transition is by its very definition a choice. Being trans means taking drugs that alter the body's physical traits, in addition to making surgical alterations to the body in order to align that person's physical appearance with their mental disposition.
I am in no way trivializing their plight. However, I do believe that their argument conflicts in many ways with the arguments made by gay and lesbian men and women(the gay community) for acceptance. The gay community has long argued that they should be accepted for who they are and the number one reason for that has been that they had no choice in the matter. They were born wired that way. It is difficult to argue that being gay is not something that should be corrected while also arguing that trans men and women are correcting some sort of birth defect.
Unfortunately, the far right is using this very complicated issue to scare a large portion of the population. |
So we're in agreement on the part I bolded, and I respect that and don't want it to become lost in the part where I disagree.
I think your definition of what being trans means as overly reductive and narrow and certainly not reflective of the entire trans community, so just be careful in generalizing. Some trans people experience gender/body dysmorphia and desire to make changes to their body, but some do not. It's not as clear cut as you're making it out to be.
For that reason I feel your point about being gay is not being a choice but trans is a choice is a bit misguided.
(After all, as a gay person, I very much assure you it is a choice to come out, publicly, day after day, even when it isn't easy. The internal feeling is not a choice, but the expression of the feeling is a choice. For both gay people and trans people.)
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66896
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/14/21 1:14 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| PlayBally'all wrote: |
| Being trans means taking drugs that alter the body's physical traits, in addition to making surgical alterations to the body in order to align that person's physical appearance with their mental disposition. |
The two kids in Connecticut that Hoopsmom posted about have done no hormone therapy or surgery. They just said "Man, I feel like a woman" and they were allowed to run and win against girls instead of the running and losing against boys they had been doing.
_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
|
|
purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 2819
Location: Indiana
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/14/21 1:32 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| pilight wrote: |
The two kids in Connecticut that Hoopsmom posted about have done no hormone therapy or surgery. They just said "Man, I feel like a woman" and they were allowed to run and win against girls instead of the running and losing against boys they had been doing. |
And that is what I have an issue with (I assume others do as well).
I have a good friend who has a daughter that is 8 or 9, but about 4 years ago told her mom that she wants to be a boy. So, she has raised him as a boy. Mind you, he is kinda overweight and physically starting to get bigger in some areas (hips, chest, etc). I don't know what they are going to do but things are going to get tougher here soon. But my point in bringing this up...does a 5 yr old really know what they are or want to be? I mean, I'm sure as a kid I thought it would be fun to throw on a dress or something and I have tons of female friends that would have been described as "tomboys" back in the day. Sure, they loved to hang out with us boys, play hoops, tag, kickball, etc and I wonder if some of them didn't outwardly think man it would be cool to just be a boy. Some turned out to gay/lesbian while others not. Hell, I'm married to one actually lol. I don't know...are 5 or 6 year olds really able to make a decision like that? I support her and her family and treat him just like a boy with no thought so don't think I'm anti-trans or whatever. It's just a unique situation.
|
|
bucks4now
Joined: 28 Feb 2006
Posts: 723
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/14/21 5:17 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I have followed this issue for a while. My favorite reporter about this is Sharyl Attkission. She does straight reporting and does a good job of looking at both side. If you are interested, I've included a link to my search for trans athletes on her website.
My answer is a third category
Search Results for “trans athletes” | Sharyl Attkisson
|
|
FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 3510
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/14/21 6:54 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I wanted to bring this point up....
"The NCAA has a long-standing policy that provides a more inclusive path for transgender participation in college sports. Our approach — which requires testosterone suppression treatment for transgender women to compete in women’s sports — embraces the evolving science on this issue and is anchored in participation policies of both the International Olympic Committee and the U.S. Olympic and Paralympic Committee...."
The NCAA has no business legislating medical treatment, and I don't think setting a precedent for medical treatment to counter physical athletic advantages is a road they ought to go down. I'd bet that requirement will be challenged in court, both by the trans athletes who are mandated to take that therapy as well as the biologic women who object to competing against them.
|
|
PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020
Posts: 426
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/14/21 7:11 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| pilight wrote: |
| PlayBally'all wrote: |
| Being trans means taking drugs that alter the body's physical traits, in addition to making surgical alterations to the body in order to align that person's physical appearance with their mental disposition. |
The two kids in Connecticut that Hoopsmom posted about have done no hormone therapy or surgery. They just said "Man, I feel like a woman" and they were allowed to run and win against girls instead of the running and losing against boys they had been doing. |
Though taking hormones and altering one's body is not required and does not define one's trans status, according to the two Connecticut transgender girls and their lawyer, they were doing hormone therapy when they were competing.
|
|
PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020
Posts: 426
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/14/21 7:32 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| summertime blues wrote: |
| This is such a BIG SCARE issue, and the hate is entirely directed at transwomen. Or has anyone not noticed that? Nobody says anything about transmen, who might be pretty good at sports like cross-country, being small and light-boned, or the lighter weights in wrestling....because those sports "don't count"...at least not in the minds of the dinosaurs making the stupid laws. It's just another way of policing women's bodies, although they call it "protecting our girls" (funny, that), and you DO NOT want to get me started on that issue, which doesn't belong here anyway. |
I agree with you that a lot of hate is directed toward trans women but you can't lump everybody together who has concerns about the potential for unfair competitive advantage and say they're haters. It's one thing to talk about social inclusion but when you talk about sports, biology is a factor. Hormones, muscle mass, body build, etc. make a difference. Unfortunately, the cis gender girls and others who are concerned about an unfair competitive advantage are lumped in with the far right trans-phobes. This is not a simplistic issue. One of the reasons you don't hear as much about trans men competing with/against cis men is because, on the whole, trans women have competed at higher levels in their respective sport and gotten more media attention because of it than trans men.
|
|
PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020
Posts: 426
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/14/21 8:03 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| NFL1 wrote: |
| adamj95 wrote: |
| Unless i’m mistaken, how many elite transgender male to female athletes are there out there? There can’t be many. |
As Megan Rapinoe said: I've played sports with transwomen and the world has not combusted... I see this as a non-issue. As many say - why would anyone choose to be LGBTQ? Life is so much harder based on all the discrimination, one would not choose to transition just for prestige, money, anything! |
Rapinoe's exact quote was "And as someone who has played sports with someone who is trans I can assure you all is well, nothing is spontaneously combusting.” She was speaking in the context of trans athletes' inclusion and not the issue of whether there is potential for unfair competitive advantage. Those are two different (but related) issues.
|
|
PickledGinger
Joined: 04 Oct 2013
Posts: 1362
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/14/21 10:45 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| PG4ever wrote: |
| Life is so much harder based on all the discrimination, one would not choose to transition just for prestige, money, anything! |
This. This is such a non-issue for me that I offer this question to those opposed to trans inclusion: Do you know any Trans people? Like, have you ever actually had a conversation with one? Because maybe if you did you wouldn't be threatened by them. They're not trying to take anything away from women, they're just trying to be comfortable in their own body. And, yes, this is overly reductive but I've said it before and I'll stand by it: I'm gay, I know a lot of gay men and trans women...lets just say the interest level in sports in those communities is generally not high, particularly among the trans women and effeminate men who spent their childhoods being picked last for kickball and bullied for running like a girl (whatever TF what means). A lot of us actually hate/resent sports (except for WBB of course  ) because we were so left-out by the masculinity of the culture. So, yeah, again...non-issue for me. I just don't see it ever being substantially impactful, and this whole thing just reeks of victim-blaming. And let's be real... the war on drugs... black crime... anti-Muslim propaganda... immigrants of any and all non-white races... gay men during the AIDS epidemic... it goes on an on. It's pretty obvious that victim-blaming has become the modus operandi of the GOP, and this is their latest stop in a losing cultural warpath.
Also consider that we're getting to the point where kids are starting to identify/transition before starting or early on in puberty (shout out to all the young parents of LGBT children that are giving their children the space to be authentic...I certainly didn't have that), so these potential body physiology issues were debating right now are eventually going to be virtually obsolete.
_________________
Unspoken expectations are just premeditated resentments.
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7821
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/15/21 3:57 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| PG4ever wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| This is such a BIG SCARE issue, and the hate is entirely directed at transwomen. Or has anyone not noticed that? Nobody says anything about transmen, who might be pretty good at sports like cross-country, being small and light-boned, or the lighter weights in wrestling....because those sports "don't count"...at least not in the minds of the dinosaurs making the stupid laws. It's just another way of policing women's bodies, although they call it "protecting our girls" (funny, that), and you DO NOT want to get me started on that issue, which doesn't belong here anyway. |
I agree with you that a lot of hate is directed toward trans women but you can't lump everybody together who has concerns about the potential for unfair competitive advantage and say they're haters. It's one thing to talk about social inclusion but when you talk about sports, biology is a factor. Hormones, muscle mass, body build, etc. make a difference. Unfortunately, the cis gender girls and others who are concerned about an unfair competitive advantage are lumped in with the far right trans-phobes. This is not a simplistic issue. One of the reasons you don't hear as much about trans men competing with/against cis men is because, on the whole, trans women have competed at higher levels in their respective sport and gotten more media attention because of it than trans men. |
Have you taken a good look at the size and muscle mass of some of the Presumably) cis women playing sports these days? I mean, a really GOOD look? I'm not talking about the Caitlin Clarks and the Paige Bueckers, I'm talking about your power forwards and centers. Like Kasi Kushkituah, for instance. Definitely cis, AFAIK. About your field event athletes like Michelle Stewart, and some of the women playing rugby. Yeah. That.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
Phil
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 1274
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/16/21 6:16 am ::: |
Reply |
|
The girl in the middle, Chelsea Mitchell, also known as the "Mitchell missile", is my next-door neighbor. A boy in her class decided to identify as female, and has beaten her and all but one race in which they appeared together. Chelsea has received a track scholarship for college, but one has to wonder whether she could have one at a more prestigious school and she won of her races. What would've happened if a couple more boys decided they wanted to compete as girls, and she typically finished fourth in a race. Is that going to earn her a track scholarship? Should she be prevented from using her athletic ability to earn an athletic scholarship simply because a few boys decided to compete as girls?
Don't get me wrong; I have enormous sympathy for a person who grows up as a biological male but feels she is actually female and wants to live as a female. I can support that decision while simultaneously not wanting to see the end of women's sports. I honestly do not know the complete solution to this conundrum, and I respect the reasonably respectful way it is being discussed in this forum; it is a subject not fully conducive to intelligent discussion among quasi-random people in an Internet forum.
|
|
Phil
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 1274
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/16/21 6:16 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| sigh, duplicate, please remove
|
|
Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
Posts: 8940
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/16/21 8:02 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| Phil wrote: |
The girl in the middle, Chelsea Mitchell, also known as the "Mitchell missile", is my next-door neighbor. A boy in her class decided to identify as female, and has beaten her and all but one race in which they appeared together. Chelsea has received a track scholarship for college, but one has to wonder whether she could have one at a more prestigious school and she won of her races. What would've happened if a couple more boys decided they wanted to compete as girls, and she typically finished fourth in a race. Is that going to earn her a track scholarship? Should she be prevented from using her athletic ability to earn an athletic scholarship simply because a few boys decided to compete as girls?
Don't get me wrong; I have enormous sympathy for a person who grows up as a biological male but feels she is actually female and wants to live as a female. I can support that decision while simultaneously not wanting to see the end of women's sports. I honestly do not know the complete solution to this conundrum, and I respect the reasonably respectful way it is being discussed in this forum; it is a subject not fully conducive to intelligent discussion among quasi-random people in an Internet forum. |
I get what you're trying to say, but I'm not sure that this is the best example. I could be wrong about this, but wouldn't the college coaches look at her times to evaluate her and not her event placement? Wouldn't they look at her times vs. her placements and wonder why that time wasn't placing higher? And then look into it further?
Wouldn't they look at her technique to see if there is something that can be improved there to make her even faster and more valuable to her team?
Track and swimming (among others) are competitions that are against a clock more than an opponent, IMO.
_________________
"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
|
|
PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020
Posts: 426
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/16/21 10:00 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| summertime blues wrote: |
| PG4ever wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| This is such a BIG SCARE issue, and the hate is entirely directed at transwomen. Or has anyone not noticed that? Nobody says anything about transmen, who might be pretty good at sports like cross-country, being small and light-boned, or the lighter weights in wrestling....because those sports "don't count"...at least not in the minds of the dinosaurs making the stupid laws. It's just another way of policing women's bodies, although they call it "protecting our girls" (funny, that), and you DO NOT want to get me started on that issue, which doesn't belong here anyway. |
I agree with you that a lot of hate is directed toward trans women but you can't lump everybody together who has concerns about the potential for unfair competitive advantage and say they're haters. It's one thing to talk about social inclusion but when you talk about sports, biology is a factor. Hormones, muscle mass, body build, etc. make a difference. Unfortunately, the cis gender girls and others who are concerned about an unfair competitive advantage are lumped in with the far right trans-phobes. This is not a simplistic issue. One of the reasons you don't hear as much about trans men competing with/against cis men is because, on the whole, trans women have competed at higher levels in their respective sport and gotten more media attention because of it than trans men. |
Have you taken a good look at the size and muscle mass of some of the Presumably) cis women playing sports these days? I mean, a really GOOD look? I'm not talking about the Caitlin Clarks and the Paige Bueckers, I'm talking about your power forwards and centers. Like Kasi Kushkituah, for instance. Definitely cis, AFAIK. About your field event athletes like Michelle Stewart, and some of the women playing rugby. Yeah. That. |
Actually, I have but the build of (some) cis gender athletes doesn't change the question of whether trans women athletes have an unfair competitive advantage. As I said earlier this is a complex issue. I don't think there's one and only one fair solution for every athlete, situation, and sport.
|
|
Phil
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 1274
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/16/21 11:35 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| I assume they are looking at times which is why she may have received a scholarship. However, the male she competed against has generally better times and if colleges except trans athletes, isn't this person going to be more likely to get a scholarship? There are only so many scholarships to go around and while the specific instance may affect only a single scholarship, what happens when there are dozens or hundreds in the state? Not to mention the fact that for an athlete, having your name in the record books is an understandable honor, and if the record books say you competed in a dozen events and did not win 11 of them, that's very different than winning 12. (I don't know the exact number of competitions but I trust you get my point.) Again, this happens with one individual. If there are three, record books typically record the first three results so maybe her younger sister ends up being faster, but doesn't place for second or third in any event. Is this what we want?
|
|
bucks4now
Joined: 28 Feb 2006
Posts: 723
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/18/21 8:51 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| bucks4now wrote: |
I have followed this issue for a while. My favorite reporter about this is Sharyl Attkission. She does straight reporting and does a good job of looking at both side. If you are interested, I've included a link to my search for trans athletes on her website.
My answer is a third category
Search Results for “trans athletes” | Sharyl Attkisson |
Sharyl updated her reporting this week on her show, just local listings...
|
|
|
|
