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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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 Posted: 03/12/21 11:32 am ::: |
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Ooh, I like Philadelphia Kites because they could use the Ben Franklin allusions but also the bird of prey (which fits alongside Eagles, and even kinda with Flyers). Doesn't immediately roll of the tongue, but we'd get used to it quickly. Could be a cool logo. |
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StevenHW
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 04/21/21 9:38 am ::: |
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Presumably there is enough of a lesbian community (that matches that in other big cities) to support a Philly team -- but the other side of the equation is families with basketball-playing daughters.
The Philly Catholic league (high school) has always been strong, which would lead me to believe that the CYO programs are strong as well, so the audience should be there as well.
But of course what's needed is an owner ... if one is available, then relocation makes the most sense, as expansion will cut into existing franchises ESPN and sponsor money and I don't know if existing owners are willing to do that.
It would be great from a business perspective to bring Philly and SF on at the same time and go to 14 teams -- but I'm in the camp that believes there's not enough talent to go around, especially with volleyball draining the talent pool more and more each year.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 04/21/21 11:07 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| -- but I'm in the camp that believes there's not enough talent to go around, especially with volleyball draining the talent pool more and more each year. |
It's interesting that volleyball is draining talent, but the volleyball pro league is not nearly as successful or visible as the WNBA. Clearly the motive to play pro ball as not that great if it is taking potentially WNBA level player away from basketball.
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mavcarter
#NATC
Joined: 02 Sep 2010
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| Posted: 04/21/21 11:15 am ::: |
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| Randy wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| -- but I'm in the camp that believes there's not enough talent to go around, especially with volleyball draining the talent pool more and more each year. |
It's interesting that volleyball is draining talent, but the volleyball pro league is not nearly as successful or visible as the WNBA. Clearly the motive to play pro ball as not that great if it is taking potentially WNBA level player away from basketball. |
Didn’t even know volleyball had pro league.._________________
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| Or maybe said poster should quit being a nuisance when people don’t agree? |
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blaase22
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
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| Posted: 04/21/21 12:51 pm ::: |
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| Randy wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| -- but I'm in the camp that believes there's not enough talent to go around, especially with volleyball draining the talent pool more and more each year. |
It's interesting that volleyball is draining talent, but the volleyball pro league is not nearly as successful or visible as the WNBA. Clearly the motive to play pro ball as not that great if it is taking potentially WNBA level player away from basketball. |
Well there is no nba in volleyball. Volleyball players do well in foreign leagues.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 04/21/21 1:27 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| I'm in the camp that believes there's not enough talent to go around, especially with volleyball draining the talent pool more and more each year. |
That’s the opposite camp from just about everybody else. There’s been a huge outcry on media and social media that too much talent is going to waste. Engelbert has been hearing it.
And your notion that volleyball is bleeding all the talent away from basketball belies the fact that the basketball talent is getting better and better for the next few years. People were bat-ish crazy about this year’s freshman class, starring Bueckers & Clark. What about Brink? If anything, basketball stole her away from volleyball.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 04/21/21 1:55 pm ::: |
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| mavcarter wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| -- but I'm in the camp that believes there's not enough talent to go around, especially with volleyball draining the talent pool more and more each year. |
It's interesting that volleyball is draining talent, but the volleyball pro league is not nearly as successful or visible as the WNBA. Clearly the motive to play pro ball as not that great if it is taking potentially WNBA level player away from basketball. |
Didn’t even know volleyball had pro league.. |
There are or were 2 recently.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volleyball_in_the_United_States
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huskiemaniac
Joined: 24 Nov 2004
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020
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| Posted: 04/22/21 7:32 am ::: |
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| There does seem to be a lot of press about the lack of roster spots. I would love 2 new teams. I live in Philly, so I would be very down for this. It'll all come down to interested ownership. I feel like it would be harder to find an owner willing to build a team from scratch then to take over a relocation team. I don't forsee the 76ers jumping in without heavy league pressure. We haven't seen an NBA team take on a W team since... 2003 when the Spurs took over the Starzz? That is the only instance of a NBA team jumping in since the league shift away from NBA ownership in 2003. Technically, Tsai didn't own the Nets yet when he took over the Liberty but I guess it could be possible with that model.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 04/22/21 9:35 am ::: |
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| Randy wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| -- but I'm in the camp that believes there's not enough talent to go around, especially with volleyball draining the talent pool more and more each year. |
It's interesting that volleyball is draining talent, but the volleyball pro league is not nearly as successful or visible as the WNBA. Clearly the motive to play pro ball as not that great if it is taking potentially WNBA level player away from basketball. |
Decisions are made about which sport to play in middle school, by and large, and are determined primarily by what middle school friends are playing. A professional career is very seldom part of the process ...
Club volleyball coaches make their living from their teams, and they insist that girls spend the winter playing volleyball and not basketball. And if a girl's middle-school friends are playing volleyball, that's what she wants to do.
As for the excitement about Bueckers and Clark (and Brink), all well-deserved. But adding a team or two requires not only 20 players, but replacements for those who age out must also be found somewhere. And WNBA drafts generally deliver four or five legit starters, at best.
But I understand that some feel there is more talent than I do -- that's debatable. The numbers of youth participants in volleyball and basketball, and the trends, are simply facts.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 04/22/21 1:09 pm ::: |
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Here's an article about why girls are leaving basketball for volleyball.
https://www.espn.com/espnw/sports/story/_/id/18659764/why-young-athletes-flocking-volleyball-not-basketball-record-numbers
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| " More than that, White cringed, "I hated being touched. I'm a germ freak, so a sweaty person touching me freaked me out." |
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| "It appeals not just to the super tall but the super small. The super small has a niche with the libero and the [defensive specialist] position where they can find success at a very high level." |
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| "I wanted to compete against someone, but I didn't want that physical contact," she said. "Volleyball allows you to be a little more of a girl. You get to wear the ribbons, wear pink, wear your hair however you want and still be dainty when you play the sport. That draws a lot of young athletes to the sport." |
So, we're losing short germophobes who like being dainty. Somehow, I don't think that's going to result in a dilution of talent in women's professional basketball.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 04/22/21 1:22 pm ::: |
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| There are many girls who stay away from basketball because they don't want to be tagged as lesbians and even more parents who steer their girls away for that reason
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 04/22/21 2:25 pm ::: |
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A basketball coach kept trying to convince a tall athletic girl to at least play some basketball as well as volleyball.
"I don't like contact," she said, "and I don't like to run."
I think it's disingenuous to think that losing talent to other sports won't hurt basketball. To come back to my point about middle school, that's when decisions are made, and middle school girls go with their friends. If the "dainty germophobe" plays volleyball, then her BFF will too.
And as I've said before, the toxic culture on the sidelines and in the stands is a serious negative for basketball. Screaming at refs, yelling at players ... you don't see that in volleyball. The atmosphere at youth volleyball tournaments is much different than basketball.
In the long run, this is perhaps the biggest test facing women's basketball and the WNBA. If the pool of available talent keeps draining away from basketball into volleyball, soccer, water polo and lacrosse, it will make a huge difference down the road.
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020
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| Posted: 04/22/21 2:56 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| "I don't like contact," she said, "and I don't like to run." |
Sounds like we're missing out on an athletic phenom.
Seriously though, competition for athletic talent among women's sports is important but I wouldn't be too concerned about it. Baseball is way less popular than football or basketball but it still has a talent pool that supports MLB. Every sport is losing out to soccer it seems but they're all still competitive for talent.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 04/22/21 5:06 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
A basketball coach kept trying to convince a tall athletic girl to at least play some basketball as well as volleyball.
"I don't like contact," she said, "and I don't like to run."
I think it's disingenuous to think that losing talent to other sports won't hurt basketball. To come back to my point about middle school, that's when decisions are made, and middle school girls go with their friends. If the "dainty germophobe" plays volleyball, then her BFF will too.
And as I've said before, the toxic culture on the sidelines and in the stands is a serious negative for basketball. Screaming at refs, yelling at players ... you don't see that in volleyball. The atmosphere at youth volleyball tournaments is much different than basketball.
In the long run, this is perhaps the biggest test facing women's basketball and the WNBA. If the pool of available talent keeps draining away from basketball into volleyball, soccer, water polo and lacrosse, it will make a huge difference down the road. |
I disagree. All we are seeing is an early stage of the screening process take place even earlier than before. The unsuitable personalities are being weeded out -- which probably includes their BFFs. It may affect the sport at lower levels where the competition is weak, but anyone who is so easily discouraged will not get anywhere near a pro career -- probably not even the upper echelons of college. Also, athletes who are truly good enough and competitive enough for multiple sports usually find a way to participate in more than one. We may eventually lose her permanently to the other sport, but not in middle school. For instance, Marta Sniezak was DC high school player of the year in both basketball and soccer. She chose basketball for college but it didn't lead to a pro career. Now, she's trying a comeback in soccer. To be successful at higher levels, you have to love the sport and work your tail off. When I read interviews with the coaches of star players, they always say so-and-so is the hardest worker they've ever seen. You need to be very determined to even get a chance at pro sports.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 04/22/21 6:10 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
A basketball coach kept trying to convince a tall athletic girl to at least play some basketball as well as volleyball.
"I don't like contact," she said, "and I don't like to run."
I think it's disingenuous to think that losing talent to other sports won't hurt basketball. To come back to my point about middle school, that's when decisions are made, and middle school girls go with their friends. If the "dainty germophobe" plays volleyball, then her BFF will too.
And as I've said before, the toxic culture on the sidelines and in the stands is a serious negative for basketball. Screaming at refs, yelling at players ... you don't see that in volleyball. The atmosphere at youth volleyball tournaments is much different than basketball.
In the long run, this is perhaps the biggest test facing women's basketball and the WNBA. If the pool of available talent keeps draining away from basketball into volleyball, soccer, water polo and lacrosse, it will make a huge difference down the road. |
I disagree. All we are seeing is an early stage of the screening process take place even earlier than before. The unsuitable personalities are being weeded out -- which probably includes their BFFs. It may affect the sport at lower levels where the competition is weak, but anyone who is so easily discouraged will not get anywhere near a pro career -- probably not even the upper echelons of college. Also, athletes who are truly good enough and competitive enough for multiple sports usually find a way to participate in more than one. We may eventually lose her permanently to the other sport, but not in middle school. For instance, Marta Sniezak was DC high school player of the year in both basketball and soccer. She chose basketball for college but it didn't lead to a pro career. Now, she's trying a comeback in soccer. To be successful at higher levels, you have to love the sport and work your tail off. When I read interviews with the coaches of star players, they always say so-and-so is the hardest worker they've ever seen. You need to be very determined to even get a chance at pro sports. |
I couldn’t find anything of Marta Sniezak currently playing soccer, but I found something that says she is playing pro basketball in Spain. Is she also playing pro soccer in Spain? If she is that’s pretty cool she can do both.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 04/22/21 11:42 pm ::: |
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| GEF34 wrote: |
I couldn’t find anything of Marta Sniezak currently playing soccer, but I found something that says she is playing pro basketball in Spain. Is she also playing pro soccer in Spain? If she is that’s pretty cool she can do both. |
Someone else on Rebkell had posted that Sniezek is preparing to try out for a team -- I believe in the US. However, I'm not sure if it was something coming up soon or more of an intermediate six months to a year type goal.
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ClayK
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| Posted: 04/23/21 9:10 am ::: |
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The participation numbers are brute facts.
Basketball is flat or declining; volleyball and soccer are up. To imagine that will have no impact on the quality of play at higher levels ignores the fact that there aren't that many elite athletes, and every one that plays volleyball or soccer is one less that plays basketball.
This is a major problem for women's basketball, and denial is an easy response -- but as athleticism rises in volleyball, it can't help but decline in basketball because the two sports draw from the same talent pool: Tall, explosive athletes.
And it's not just contact and running that drive girls away -- and you are right that those players will never succeed anyway -- but the culture around the sport, from uniform styles to the attitude and actions of coaches and fans, has a major impact on which sport a young girl will choose. And once that choice is made, usually in eighth grade, it's difficult to change.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 04/23/21 11:41 am ::: |
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I'm not denying anything. If you look at achievement, it's not simply about the size of the pool. Australia's women have had arguably the second-best basketball team in the world for the last 25 years. Is that because Australia is a big country with lots of women playing basketball? Let's look outside of sports. If numbers are so important, why do children of East Indian ancestry dominate the spelling bee competitions? Indian-Americans are 1.2% of the population. Obviously, things like pride, determination, competitiveness, effort, etcetera are factors that influence success.
And while there is proof that kids are leaving basketball for volleyball, where is your proof that so many elite athletes are leaving? Is the US a rising volleyball power? I see that we're ranked #2 in the world, but we've been ranked high for a while -- #1 for most of 2012 through mid-2016. Meanwhile, are we seeing a drop-off in the quality of American basketball players? Maybe the best WCBB freshman class we've ever seen just arrived this year. But even if we are actually losing American players, there are plenty of good players from foreign countries -- many of them rising powers -- who can fill the void. I think the doom and gloom is really premature.
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johnjohnW
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| Posted: 04/23/21 12:28 pm ::: |
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Honestly, let's just shut down the WNBA.
Clay, what are your proposed solutions to the reasons you've outlined?
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 04/23/21 12:47 pm ::: |
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| johnjohnW wrote: |
Honestly, let's just shut down the WNBA.
Clay, what are your proposed solutions to the reasons you've outlined? |
There's the question ... and there are no easy answers.
1) From the club level on up, be very, very strict on coaching behavior and fan behavior. Limit screaming at officials by calling more technicals and kicking fans out of the gym.
Limit taunting and showboating, because the humiliated kid (and parents) are likely to find another form of activity.
Start to change the culture so it is not as obstreperous and not as focused on yelling at refs after every call.
Make it fun to sit in the stands at games at all levels. Encourage camaraderie between opposing teams and fans.
2) This may seem trivial, but it's not to teenage girls: Quit using NBA styles of uniforms (loose and baggy) for girls teams. Most girls prefer the volleyball spandex to the baggy shorts, but because the elite girls' players (and clubs) want to emulate NBA players, the uniforms are NBA-like.
Many, if not most, youth players don't follow the NBA and could care less what Zion wears. They just want to feel like they're looking good, and in fashion.
3) This is difficult, and likely too hard to implement, but it would help: In volleyball, there is no control over who touches the ball, especially in serve/receive. In fact, the server will often target the weakest player, who then is involved in the action. And during rallies at all but the highest level, the ball could be hit to anyone so everyone is involved.
In a lot of youth basketball, the plan is simple: Give the ball to the star and let her go to work. (If she doesn't get the ball enough, she goes to another team.) And of course, that's the best way to win, and winning is critical. Parents don't want to pay for a team that doesn't win.
Unlike volleyball, though, the coach can control who touches the ball, more or less, and who shoots it, and a lot of systems limit who can shoot, where they can shoot from, and how often they can shoot. The same with handling the ball.
This is a tough one, but maybe if people started to realize women's basketball needs help, they would start to see they need to change some things.
Mainly, though, I think it's important to realize there is a problem and start to think about trying to solve it, rather than hoping the numbers will change all by themselves.
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blaase22
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
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| Posted: 04/24/21 9:49 pm ::: |
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| Watching Texas half their starters look more explosive than Charli Collier and they still lost.
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singinerd54
Joined: 18 Feb 2009
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| Posted: 04/24/21 10:26 pm ::: |
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| blaase22 wrote: |
| Watching Texas half their starters look more explosive than Charli Collier and they still lost. |
I imagine you're referring to the women's volleyball championship that finished a bit ago on ESPN2 between Kentucky and Texas. I was also watching that match, so it's an interesting perspective coming to this thread from that.
Jermaine O'Neal and Brian Skinner, who both played in the NBA for over a decade, had daughters (2 in the case of Skinner) in the game. Would be interested to hear and how Asjia, Madi, and Avery all ended up as volleyball stalwarts, rather than basketball players. I assume basketball was in there at some point, but I didn't hear anything about that from the broadcast.
I don't watch much college volleyball, but it seems there are more 6'2"+ players than in college basketball. Texas has 7 players listed at 6'2"+ (50% of roster) while Kentucky has 5 (33%). Baylor basketball (chosen since they are particularly known for their post play) has 4 (31%). From my limited viewing, tall female volleyball players are more agile than their basketball counterparts. Yes, they don't have to run up and down a court, but they are constantly jumping and reacting very quickly to the play on the court. The sports do require quite different skill sets and I would argue that volleyballs are more straightforward (that does not mean easier), which may account for some of the differences in player perceptions.
I'm not informed like ClayK, and these thoughts are not in service of a specific point, but it is interesting to think about. It's a shame they are the same season, because I imagine some of these volleyball players would be great basketball players. I think Clay's points about youth sports culture and attire are important considerations that I hope USAB (or whomever the appropriate organizing body) is considering.
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