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calbearman76



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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Location: Carson City


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PostPosted: 06/08/20 11:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Moved from another thread:


The issue of defunding police is obviously complex. Over the past 20 years the role of police has grown dramatically. Get police out of schools, I agree, but what takes its place. Get police and jails out of mental health and alcohol and drug abuse, but what takes its place.

I agree that the police should not have been militarized; repurposing tanks and other tools of war was a mistake and that should be undone for all but the most serious situations. I agree that the Rehnquist standard that gave rise to institutional immunity (Graham vs. Connor) must be tightened. I also believe that chokeholds and other similar police tactics should be banned. And I believe that police accountability must be increased through civilian review boards, public information on complaints and perhaps even a 3 strikes policy on officer misconduct.

But overall I believe defunding of the police is very likely to create more, not fewer, problems. Accountability costs money, training costs money, and getting more competent police costs money.


Shades



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PostPosted: 06/09/20 8:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/P4Y7gp32Ong" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



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Shades



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PostPosted: 06/09/20 2:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The City That Remade Its Police Department
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-04/how-camden-new-jersey-reformed-its-police-department

Quote:
“What we’re experiencing today in Camden is the result of many years of deposits in the relationship bank account,” says Scott Thomson, Camden’s chief of police until 2019. He led the city’s high-profile pivot to community policing from 2013 until last year and oversaw what turned out to be a steep decline in crime. Homicides in Camden reached 67 in 2012; the figure for 2019 was 25. Over the past seven years, the department has undertaken some of the most far-reaching police reforms in the country, and its approach has been praised by former President Barack Obama.


Quote:
While many departments define “reasonable” force in the line of duty vaguely, Camden’s definition is much clearer. The department adopted an 18-page use-of-force policy in 2019, developed with New York University’s Policing Project. The rules emphasize that de-escalation has to come first. Deadly force—such as a chokehold or firing a gun—can only be used in certain situations, once every other tactic has been exhausted. “It requires that force is not only reasonable and necessary, but that it’s proportionate,” says Farhang Heydari, executive director of the Policing Project. Most important, “they’re requirements. They’re not suggestions.”


Quote:
By the department’s account, reports of excessive force complaints in Camden have dropped 95% since 2014.


Quote:
“I think the challenge is that you have 18,000 police departments” in the U.S., says Thomson. “It’s an industry that generally is averse to any type of change. The only time change comes is when it’s compelled.”



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Genero36



Joined: 24 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: 06/10/20 7:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<embed><iframe width="907" height="510" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/T3YsNu6PWz4" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe></embed>

https://youtu.be/T3YsNu6PWz4



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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 06/11/20 9:21 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

2016 regarding the Philando Castile shooting:

jammerbirdi wrote:

We're doing this all wrong on so many levels. It's truly tragic. Get a license plate and issue the citation by mail for a busted tail light. If you have a bad address and it doesn't get to the owner of the vehicle OH WELL. It's a freaking busted tail light.

Train the police not better but DIFFERENTLY. TO DO DIFFERENT THINGS. Give them less options to fire into a car with a woman and a kid when you are requiring them to reach for a drivers license. Put a fucking copy of the drivers license on some kind of display like a taxi driver. So cops aren't initiating this physical transaction of a citizen with a busted tail light having to reach for something which freaks out Barney fucking Fife who then shoots him. Let's do some things differently.



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Genero36



Joined: 24 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: 06/11/20 8:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote




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Genero36



Joined: 24 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: 06/13/20 9:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Retired NYPD spokesman says ‘we killed Eric Garner’ in emotional post



https://nypost.com/2020/06/13/ex-nypd-spokesman-says-we-killed-eric-garner-in-emotional-post/amp/?__twitter_impression=true&fbclid=IwAR2PQ1BiWgKLD0IffWuBEolI0SaNWeNsn2U5XQrwLeJsuBcAVvssMy33Bgs

I guess there is something about a tax payer funded full benefits retirement package that just frees the soul.



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Genero36



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PostPosted: 06/15/20 5:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Trump says he will sign police reform executive order on Tuesday

Quote:
WASHINGTON, June 15 (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump said on Monday he will sign an executive order on police reform and hold a news conference on Tuesday, after several weeks of nationwide protests sparked by the death of African-American George Floyd while in police custody in Minneapolis.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-says-he-will-sign-police-reform-executive-order-on-tuesday/ar-BB15waM6?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout



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Genero36



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PostPosted: 06/18/20 7:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote




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pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 06/18/20 7:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Glad we heard from somebody in the "superpredator" administration

Another symptom of the problem...




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The power of the police to fulfill their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behavior, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect
Shades



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 57250



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PostPosted: 06/25/20 11:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

3 North Carolina police officers fired over racist rants
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/nation-world/national/article243779512.html

Quote:
Three members of a North Carolina police department have been fired after a department audit of a video recording captured one of the officers saying a civil war was necessary to wipe Black people off the map and that he was ready.

The Wilmington Police Department took the action on Tuesday against Cpl. Jessie Moore, and officers Kevin Piner and Brian Gilmore. Each was accused of violating standards of conduct, criticism and use of inappropriate jokes and slurs.


Quote:
According to documents released by the police department, a sergeant was conducting a video audit as part of a monthly inspection and was reviewing footage from Piner’s car that had been classified as “accidental activation.” After the sergeant listened to the conversation and determined comments made by Piner and Moore were “extremely racist,” she contacted the department administrator for the camera system.

At the 46-minute mark of the video, Piner and Gilmore began talking from their respective cars, at which time Piner criticized the department, saying its only concern was “kneeling down with the black folks.” About 30 minutes later, Piner received a phone call from Moore, according to the investigation, a segment in which Moore referred to a Black female as a “negro.” He also referred to the woman by using a racial slur. He repeated the use of the slur in describing a Black magistrate, and Moore used a gay slur to describe the magistrate as well.

Later, according to the investigation, Piner told Moore that he feels a civil war is coming and that he is ready. Piner said he was going to buy a new assault rifle, and soon “we are just going to go out and start slaughtering them (expletive)” Blacks. “I can’t wait. God, I can’t wait.” Moore responded that he wouldn’t do that.

Piner then told Moore that he felt a civil war was needed to “wipe them off the (expletive) map. That’ll put them back about four or five generations.” Moore told Piner he was “crazy,” and the recording stopped a short time later.


<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/1cjAHqRoG-k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



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Last edited by Shades on 06/26/20 8:23 am; edited 1 time in total
pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 63226
Location: Where the action is


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PostPosted: 06/26/20 7:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Campaign To Remove NYPD From Traffic Enforcement Gains Steam

https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2020/06/25/campaign-to-remove-nypd-from-traffic-enforcement-gains-steam/

Quote:
Streetsblog recently reported that of the 440 tickets police issued to people for biking on the sidewalk in 2018 and 2019, 374 — or 86.4 percent — of those where race was listed went to Black and Hispanic New Yorkers. The wildly disproportionate stats followed another report showing that cops issued 99 percent of jaywalking tickets to Black and Hispanic people in the first quarter of this year.



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The power of the police to fulfill their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behavior, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect
Force10rulz



Joined: 11 Apr 2009
Posts: 1954
Location: Puget Sound


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PostPosted: 07/01/20 11:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Tear the system down, fire racist cops, they should be easy to find by their history. Then who is left needs to be retrained. New officers need a rigorous background check and then 2 years of training. Other countries have two to three years training and they don’t have the problems this country has.



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Shades



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 07/13/20 9:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/G7qZLb3jW4I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



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pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 63226
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PostPosted: 10/30/20 9:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Speaking of police training, let's take a look at some...

https://manualredeye.com/90096/news/local/police-training-hitler-presentation/

Quote:
One slide, titled “Violence of Action,” in addition to imploring officers to be “ruthless killer[s],” instructs troopers to have “a mindset void of emotion” and to “meet violence with greater violence.”

A line from Adolf Hitler’s fascist and anti-Semitic manifesto, Mein Kampf, is featured in the slide: “the very first essential for success is a perpetually constant and regular employment of violence.”

The presentation also links to a Hitler page on Goodreads, a database of quotes and books.

Two other slides quoting Hitler bring his total to three, making him the most quoted person in the presentation.



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The power of the police to fulfill their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behavior, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect
pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 63226
Location: Where the action is


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PostPosted: 02/22/21 7:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Most Ambitious Effort Yet to Reform Policing

https://www.gq.com/story/ithaca-mayor-svante-myrick-police-reform

Quote:
In a nearly 100-page report obtained by GQ, Mayor Svante Myrick will propose replacing the city’s current 63-officer, $12.5 million a year department with a “Department of Community Solutions and Public Safety” which would include armed “public safety workers” and unarmed “community solution workers,” all of whom will report to a civilian director of public safety instead of a police chief.



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The power of the police to fulfill their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behavior, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 02/22/21 8:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
The Most Ambitious Effort Yet to Reform Policing

https://www.gq.com/story/ithaca-mayor-svante-myrick-police-reform

Quote:
In a nearly 100-page report obtained by GQ, Mayor Svante Myrick will propose replacing the city’s current 63-officer, $12.5 million a year department with a “Department of Community Solutions and Public Safety” which would include armed “public safety workers” and unarmed “community solution workers,” all of whom will report to a civilian director of public safety instead of a police chief.


That’s interesting. The armed public safety workers thing. Is that just semantics? Will they have bulletproof vests and body cams and blue uniforms so that people can differentiate between them and private citizens? Will they have a union? Will their training in terms of the use of deadly force be different? How will they handle a person who is violently resisting arrest, fighting them, trying to take away their weapons, etc? Will they be classified as being law enforcement in terms of their career paths so that they can seek employment in the same field should they move to other states or municipalities? Will this trend around the country?

I would call that just the tip of the iceberg in terms of questions.



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
calbearman76



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 4900
Location: Carson City


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PostPosted: 02/24/21 6:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:

That’s interesting. The armed public safety workers thing. Is that just semantics? Will they have bulletproof vests and body cams and blue uniforms so that people can differentiate between them and private citizens? Will they have a union? Will their training in terms of the use of deadly force be different? How will they handle a person who is violently resisting arrest, fighting them, trying to take away their weapons, etc? Will they be classified as being law enforcement in terms of their career paths so that they can seek employment in the same field should they move to other states or municipalities? Will this trend around the country?

I would call that just the tip of the iceberg in terms of questions.


Very good questions, all. In particular the issue of police unions is most interesting, in large part because the establishment of unions is generally supported by the left, but the manner in which police unions have protected themselves in collective bargaining is far more supported by the right. There are no simple answers, particularly when local government budgets are continuously squeezed. It is often much easier for negotiators to give in on work rules rather than increase pay, and that is how the unions get their protections. But then when problems arise that require disciplinary action those "protections" become an impediment to reform.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 02/24/21 5:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So many oppose the death penalty, which comes after an ostensibly qualifying crime, a trial, and a conviction... I’m surprised I haven’t heard more, or even any, suggesting something around why don’t we just forbid law enforcement’s use of deadly force in the field on citizens altogether? Take away their firearms. Give them back night sticks and tell them to do the best they can.

And in this present political climate, I’m not even kidding. And even realistically I would have to think that there are some municipalities somewhere where this might even work to some extent and who might have the type of economic situations and social factors where this might even be plausible... for about a half a minute.

Why not try it in high crime areas? Let’s see how that goes. Experiment a little. I mean people wanted to eliminate the police entirely so this wouldn’t even be going as far as some have suggested. Thoughts? Cool



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
Conway Gamecock



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PostPosted: 02/28/21 12:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The first thing that needs to be done, is change the culture, and that's typically the hardest thing to do regarding ANYTHING. Something doesn't become culture without being allowed and even accepted as standard modus operandi over many long years, even generations.

It becomes something that is all that anyone knows, so its not just making adjustments or changes, its wiping everything clean and starting over, in many mind's thinking, and that's just too hard to embrace.

But when you look at it - when you analyze crime in the USA, going back to the very beginning, even perhaps before this country WAS a country. If you were able to take ALL the criminal acts that have ever been committed, and take the people that have committed them, and look at what means of wage earnings each person engaged in. What were their jobs, their careers, what did they make their livings from. And then, make a list categorizing all those people who have committed crimes in the history of this nation, into categories based on their career descriptions.

What would be the #1 career description on that list of criminals, that the most people who committed crimes grouped into the same career descriptions. What would be the #1 category on that list, that had the most people in it?

Clearly, the #1 career description on that list, is career criminals. The people who essentially made their livings off of committing crimes, breaking laws. They robbed, they stole, they looted, they thugged. They would get caught, sure - but as soon as they did "their time", and were released, they'd get right back into it, and start committing crimes again. And they keep on and on and on, because its the only thing they know.

That's the easy one, right? It practically answers itself. But what is the #2 career category on that list?

Actually, when you stop and think about it, that's easy too: It's law enforcement. It's the cops, the policemen, the sheriffs, the constables, the commissioners, the detectives, the inspectors, etc. etc. They've ALWAYS been knee-deep - sometimes even hip-deep - in corruption and crime in the background. We've written more novels and made movies and TV shows about dirty cops than we'll ever be able to count. and it goes back all the way to the very birth of this nation.

So, who is #3 on that list?? This is a little tougher, but just a little. It's politicians. The grifters and the grafters, the boodlers and the sharpers.

And it's interesting to take note of this. The career criminals, we understand. Their nature defines their purpose. Without career criminals, would there be NO crimes? Their very function is to violate the laws.

But #2 on the list are the law enforcement - those tasked with ensuring that laws are NOT broken, but obeyed and complied with.

And then #3 on the list - the LEGISLATORS. The very authors of those same laws.

So, the three most relevant and consequential categories of peoples in the United States for making laws of the land relevant at all, are in fact the very same peoples most guilty of violating those laws. They are NOT the foxes guarding the hen houses, they are the ROOSTERS who have the bloody feathers in their beaks.

So, how do we break down these cultures? When the ones most guilty are in fact the same ones who crafted and built up the cultures to begin with?

To start, we need to get the police forces to be more like the military branches. They are different from each other. In the military, it wasn't so much about brotherhood. Sure, soldiers in the military consider each other as brothers - especially during war. But they hold their faith to the federal branch of military with which they serve.

The typical soldier are governed by other typical soldiers. They are isolated and segregated to a degree, from the civilian politician or political appointee who decides their fate with little to no regard for their lives. Yes, they know when they enlist, that they could very well end up going off to a great war, and could lose their lives. In this way, they understand that they are expendable to a degree, and understand this - to a degree - when they sign up. They train and are indoctrinated to fully accept this fate, as heroes for a potential sacrifice that may never come, but could.

Policemen are not built this way. While there are MANY former soldiers who make up their ranks, they do not enlist to become policemen to someday possibly sacrifice themselves in battle. They fully expect to survive and live their lives, to raise families and have a career, in law enforcement. To be every-day heroes, meaning there needs to be "every day" every day, on and on and on.

So while the typical military soldier defends the honor of the military life and credo, the typical policeman does NOT have this same kind of "loyalty" to their branch of service known as their police force. These are in fact run and commanded by civilian appointees and political animals decade after decade, and they could give a shit about the policemen.

So the policemen give a shit about themselves. And they do this to the degree, that they create emotional walls and layers of loyalty between their fellow cops and the "administration" of the police forces and departments they are employed by. In a unique way that typical soldiers do NOT create between themselves and their military superiors - at least below the very top, the brass-sprinkled generals and admirals and so forth.

In short, if a "cop" committed a corrupt act, like a crime, his/her fellow cops in his/her departments would most likely protect that cop from exposure and punishment. They would lie to their superiors. They would look the other way. Perhaps they might even join in the participation of said corrupt actions.

And because of this "culture", if another cop told on those criminal acts to the higher authorities, they would risk being labeled as a "traitor", a "squealer", and would suffer recriminations or worse from their fellow cops.

Think of this: these are supposed to be enforcers of the law, and members of their forces are knowingly committing violations of said law, and they protect them? And if someone else deems it wrong and seeks to expose them to proper superiors, they are attacked? And this is considered some sort of "honor" system???

What honor is this???

Now, during peaceful times, federal military soldiers become little more than policemen themselves, with time on their hands. But compare this circumstance: during war, a soldier is supposed to be an enforcer of the United States sovereign rights and interests, to protect and defend freedoms and democracy as we define them. With every inch of their lives. Suppose they find a fellow soldier has been allying with the enemy - giving them critical confidential intel, helping to put other soldiers in harm's way. Would those fellow soldiers side with him and defend him, and refuse to expose him to their superiors, and attack other soldiers who choose to do so?

No, depending on the degree of betrayal, every soldier down to the last one would be enraged at the act of the one soldier. They may in fact kill that soldier themselves. It is after all, during war.

But the typical police do NOT act nor think that way. They work more like bouncers at the local club, than soldiers. Or more like mercenaries. They sell their loyalties and allegiances to the highest bidder.

So we need to find a way to change this hard-ingrained culture of the typical "Cop". They don't hold such noble ideals of being "heroes". They are only doing it to benefit and provide for themselves and their immediate loved ones.

So, even police unions and commissioners and other "highers-up" have been raised in this culture. They say, "look the other way, don't rat anyone out, and look out for me and I'll look out for you". It's not much better than organized crime, with the exception of these mob guys are wearing badges.

Find a way to change this culture - get each and every policeman to stick to their jobs as they are trained, and respect other cops who inform on those who step outside of the lines, and punish those severely who attempt to punish the cops who uphold the laws by exposing their misdeeds, and eventually you may see the police forces start to become more trustworthy and diligent in their jobs. But this stuff was allowed to grow over literal centuries. It's not going to be an easy fix......


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