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| Will You Be Getting the Coronavirus Vaccine? |
| Yes |
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40% |
[ 6 ] |
| Hell to the Yeah |
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20% |
[ 3 ] |
| Throw a dart and aim for my ass, yes |
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20% |
[ 3 ] |
| Use a blowgun and hit me in the neck as I drive by the ER |
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6% |
[ 1 ] |
| No, personal health reasons |
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6% |
[ 1 ] |
| No, I don't trust/believe in it. |
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6% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Total Votes : 15 |
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Luuuc
#NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 21928
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 Posted: 01/15/21 9:21 pm ::: |
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Biting my tongue hard.
Shit is real out there. That is certainly true.
_________________
Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15738
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 01/15/21 10:14 pm ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| The jab was personal. Bringing up past shit at a time when we’re all literally trying to survive. Literally. Trying. To. Survive. Physically and emotionally. Let’s think about the person on the other end of our jabs. |
Well, it's bound to be 'personal' when interfacing and responding....that's kinda inescapable when we address each other here, jammer. But it's not *nasty*, nor intended in a mean-spirited way. Yes, we're all (hopefully) wiser with hindsight, but I'd suggest we re-think how what we put out as "factual" information supported with manipulate-able 'data' can come back to bite us.
I re-quote your signature line: "Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin"
"Falsehoods" can only be defeated if acknowledged and addressed, no? I personally think Truth DOES have the 'vigor' to prevail. It simply must.
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Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 01/15/21 10:23 pm ::: |
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Truth has a way of imposing itself on those who might have been initially inclined to turn away from it. But this thread is for discussing our collective national struggles to understand the vaccination processes and share our opinions and personal experiences with that process.
Ask your questions in the thread where that discussion occurred._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8227
Location: Heisenberg
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| Posted: 01/16/21 12:50 am ::: |
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Howee, I don't think highlighting four sentences I wrote 10 months ago when there were 29 deaths in the U.S., none of which sentences contain an untruth or falsity, has anything to do with the Covid vaccine.
Like so many other things about this disease and its attempted palliatives, there are very few things that are universally agreed to be "truths" or "facts" about the the vaccine supply, distribution, priorities or administration. In my opinion, these vaccine aspects of the pandemic saga, like just about all the rest, are becoming unnecessarily politicized in the media. Here, in this thread, I'm just sharing my personal experiences, opinions, and interpretations of what I agree with Jammer is poorly reported information.
I want no hard feelings with anyone, and don't hold any toward you. I will not comment about things outside the vaccination topic beyond the the remainder of this sentence, but for your contextual information, my initial instincts and current views on the pandemic overall are generally in agreement with the medical viewpoints expressed in the Great Barrington Declaration and its associated FAQ. |
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calbearman76
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 5155
Location: Carson City
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| Posted: 01/16/21 1:01 am ::: |
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A few points on the administration of the vaccine. The Trump administration punted the distribution of vaccine to states with no money and little guidance. The CDC guidelines are out there, but remember that this is a CDC that has been decimated by Trump. In addition to their lack of money the states were also not given accurate numbers for the amount of the vaccine they would receive and when they would receive it. I have dealt with public health officials (no, I am not one) and I find them to be extremely competent when provided a task and reasonable resources. In other words Trump had no idea what should be done so he screwed it up, passed the buck and has no interest in getting it fixed.
As to who should get the vaccine, I believe the government should determine who should get the vaccine as long as it is a scarce resource. There are so many competing interests. It is not so simple as to say who is most susceptible to death or serious complications, though that is a consideration. People who necessarily must come into contact with Covid as a part of their job, such as health workers and first responders are also top candidates. Essential workers, including teachers, grocery workers and others who by the nature of their jobs put them in a position to both contract and spread the disease, must be given special consideration. People who live in congregate settings such as prisons, nursing homes and even college dorms should also be given preference. Government is the appropriate place to weigh these considerations in the best interest of society as a whole.
Not only do these considerations need to be addressed. they also have to be communicated to the public. That takes planning and money which has not been authorized. President Elect Biden at least understands the scope of the issue. Time will tell how well he handles this but it has to be better than what Trump has done.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 01/16/21 7:14 am ::: |
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LATimes: Nursing homes are left behind
Public health officials have been scrambling to step up their vaccination game by getting more doses out of vials and into arms. But even as they open up access to the shots, new data show they’ve failed to quickly get the lifesaving doses to the vast majority of the state’s most vulnerable population — residents of long-term care facilities, who were supposed to be the priority.
As of Sunday, only about 5% of those living in the 17,400 skilled nursing homes and assisted living centers enrolled in the state’s vaccination program had been inoculated, my colleague Jack Dolan reports. And only 3% of California facilities had been scheduled for their first visit from a vaccination team.
“I find that infuriating,” said Lee Collins, whose 91-year-old mother is in a Beverly Hills assisted living facility where nobody had been vaccinated as of midweek and no date had been scheduled for vaccinations to begin, according to the state data. “I thought the elderly were supposed to be the priority, but clearly that has not happened.”
The data obtained by The Times list California long-term care facilities enrolled in the vaccine program run by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the pharmaceutical chains CVS and Walgreens. Nearly 360,000 people reside in these facilities, which typically house elderly folks who can no longer care for themselves. And almost none of them had been vaccinated as of Sunday._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 01/16/21 9:33 am ::: |
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So if there’s something close to one reason why I started this thread, this last post from the LA Times would be that reason. And believe me, I would love to be making posts here saying, “Whoa, look how good things are going!” But I’m afraid good is not how things are going._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 3515
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| Posted: 01/16/21 10:45 am ::: |
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| calbearman76 wrote: |
A few points on the administration of the vaccine. The Trump administration punted the distribution of vaccine to states with no money and little guidance. The CDC guidelines are out there, but remember that this is a CDC that has been decimated by Trump. In addition to their lack of money the states were also not given accurate numbers for the amount of the vaccine they would receive and when they would receive it. I have dealt with public health officials (no, I am not one) and I find them to be extremely competent when provided a task and reasonable resources. In other words Trump had no idea what should be done so he screwed it up, passed the buck and has no interest in getting it fixed.
As to who should get the vaccine, I believe the government should determine who should get the vaccine as long as it is a scarce resource. There are so many competing interests. It is not so simple as to say who is most susceptible to death or serious complications, though that is a consideration. People who necessarily must come into contact with Covid as a part of their job, such as health workers and first responders are also top candidates. Essential workers, including teachers, grocery workers and others who by the nature of their jobs put them in a position to both contract and spread the disease, must be given special consideration. People who live in congregate settings such as prisons, nursing homes and even college dorms should also be given preference. Government is the appropriate place to weigh these considerations in the best interest of society as a whole.
Not only do these considerations need to be addressed. they also have to be communicated to the public. That takes planning and money which has not been authorized. President Elect Biden at least understands the scope of the issue. Time will tell how well he handles this but it has to be better than what Trump has done. |
Trump did punt to the states, and some states, like most of those in New England, the Dakotas, and and WV, have done well at getting the vaccines out, although their govs. have been complaining about not receiving enough doses since the beginning. Other states have been a disaster.
The considerations you listed as being important in vax administration are exactly the ones evaluated in the ACIP's guidelines. Having the govt override the CDC and revamp the requirements now is increasing the chaos and public fury exponentially. If Trump had stood behind his scientists, we would have been better off. Ditto for Biden.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 3515
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| Posted: 01/16/21 11:23 am ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| ... I will not comment about things outside the vaccination topic beyond the the remainder of this sentence, but for your contextual information, my initial instincts and current views on the pandemic overall are generally in agreement with the medical viewpoints expressed in the Great Barrington Declaration and its associated FAQ. |
I want to comment specifically on the GBD as it relates to vaccinations. The GBD proposed that lockdown policies were too restrictive and produced "devastating effects on short and long-term public health” that we should let low risk people out to acquire herd immunity, and that this would improve public health. High risk people should be put in strict isolation.
The GBD was countered by the John Snow Memorandum which was signed by thousands of physicians, public health experts, researchers etc, who pointed out that we had nothing to support the effectiveness of herd immunity and focused isolation in controlling this pandemic, and stated "controlling community spread of COVID-19 is the best way to protect our societies and economies until safe and effective vaccines and therapeutics arrive within the coming months”.
Following much acrimonious debate about herd immunity, quarantines, lockdowns, and Sweden, the public took the matter out of our hands, unwittingly followed the GBD and came out of isolation for Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year's, while we high risk people cowered in our homes. We can see how well that worked out. Our ICU's are full and our cases and deaths have skyrocketed.
The proof is in the pudding, as they say, and the GBD's approach failed. They were also taken to task for their affiliation with a right-wing think tank funded by a pro-big-business billionaire and for the fake signatures on their petition.
Now we're working on the JSM approach, or trying to. The isolation component was shot in the foot, but masking and vaccines are the other important factors. Unfortunately, they are both subject to politicization as well.
We need the vax program to work because we can't repeat our recent mistakes. Biden has recently appointed Dr. Rochelle Walensky, MD, MPH, an infectious disease expert from Harvard and MGH and one of the co-authors of the JSM, as the new head of the CDC. Hopefully he's smart enough to listen to her.
This Lancet article summarizes the position of the GBD and JSM with links to their respective websites and full texts.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30555-5/fulltext
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8227
Location: Heisenberg
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| Posted: 01/16/21 4:40 pm ::: |
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| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| ... I will not comment about things outside the vaccination topic beyond the the remainder of this sentence, but for your contextual information, my initial instincts and current views on the pandemic overall are generally in agreement with the medical viewpoints expressed in the Great Barrington Declaration and its associated FAQ. |
I want to comment specifically on the GBD as it relates to vaccinations.
The GBD was countered by the John Snow Memorandum which . . . pointed out that we had nothing to support the effectiveness of herd immunity . . . . |
A non-political, non-emotional and informed discussion about the issues raised in the GBD and JSM would be an interesting separate thread, but I most emphatically disagree that any country in the world has undertaken the Focused Protection approach recommended in the GBD.
Here in this thread, I first want to focus on the complete misunderstanding of "herd immunity" that seems to be rampant in the media and hence in people's minds. And then relate herd immunity to vaccines.
Herd immunity is not a strategy or tactic to combat pandemics. Herd immunity is simply a scientifically proven empirical fact. In fact, herd immunity is the only way any pandemic or epidemic can end, and is the way that all pandemics/epidemics will end.
Herd immunity only occurs and inevitably occurs when enough people in the population (the "herd") have immunity so that most infected people cannot find new uninfected people to infect, leading to the end of the epidemic/pandemic. This means that the epidemic/pandemic will end before everyone is infected, although it will continue in endemic form with low rates of infections.
The herd immunity percentage for any disease is not fixed, but varies from population to population, from location to location, and is completely unknown for Covid-19.
Before vaccines were invented, the only way herd immunity could be reached was by natural infections. And, in all of human history, all pandemics and epidemics ended this way. The Black Death is a famous example.
In the age of vaccines, all epidemics and pandemics end by herd immunity achieved by a combination of natural infections and vaccinations. These diseases then continue to exist in the world as endemics, periodically rising and falling, just another disease we must learn to live with. The only disease that I can think of that has reached 100% herd immunity via vaccinations and natural infections, and thus completely stamped out, is smallpox.
So, if there were no Covid vaccine, the best medical and moral strategy would be the one that allows the world to reach herd immunity through natural infections with the fewest overall public health costs -- overall costs which must include not only lives lost to the infection, but also lives lost to other diseases while fighting the infection (plus whatever amount of economic costs one factors in). What this "best" strategy should be is part of GBD vs. JSM, and is what should be vigorously debated in public by scientists with differing opinions, and reported in an intelligent, non-political and non-hysterical manner by the media.
But now we have a vaccine. Can it, by itself, result in the necessary worldwide herd immunity? That's highly unlikely, especially given the supply constraints and administration problems even in the richest countries such as the U.S and U.K. Herd immunity, the only way to end all pandemics, must be achieved for Covid by an ongoing combination of vaccinations and natural infections and a medical strategy for each.
I'll skip the issue of what is the best ongoing strategy for natural infections, because that belongs in a GBD/JSM type of thread. Here, the question is what should the strategy be for a limited supply vaccine? There is no scientific, medical or political consensus on this.
Shouldn't the most vulnerable, the very old, be vaccinated first? That seems reasonable, but consider this: If the old are successfully isolating, they will not be contacting any carriers of the disease, and hence these old folks will have what one might call "isolation immunity". Vaccinating the isolated old may also give them biological immunity, but this won't contribute to herd immunity because isolated old people are not carriers.
An alternative vaccination strategy would be to vaccinate the group that is most likely to be carriers, regardless of their low mortality risk. These would be the people who are the most circulating in society, the people having the most human-to-human contacts -- in other words, the least isolated. By eliminating the carriers of the disease, we ultimately protect the vulnerable old folks because there eventually will not enough carriers to infect them, and then the old folks can come out of isolation.
There are other vaccine strategies, some being compromises of the two discussed above.
Does anyone hear intelligent debates on these subjects? I don't, unless I dive deep into obscure literature and highly specialized websites. |
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9624
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| Posted: 01/16/21 11:37 pm ::: |
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| Can't wait till these vaccines have been fully distributed.
Last edited by tfan on 01/17/21 5:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 01/17/21 4:17 am ::: |
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I give up._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 01/19/21 6:00 am ::: |
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LA Times (My comments follow)
New L.A. County order gives older residents vaccine access by Thursday
Amid widespread confusion over when and how senior citizens can get the coronavirus vaccine, Los Angeles County supervisors are urging that people 65 and older be inoculated immediately.
In an executive order late Monday, Hilda Solis, chairwoman of the L.A. County Board of Supervisors, directed county health officials to make COVID-19 vaccination appointments available to residents 65 and older beginning Thursday.
“The COVID-19 vaccine rollout has been an enormous undertaking, especially during an unprecedented surge where cases, hospitalizations, and deaths continue to skyrocket,” Solis said in a statement. “However, if we are to ever get out of this dark winter, it is critical that we make headway vaccinating people 65 years of age and older as soon as possible.”
So within the confines of Los Angeles County the highest governmental authority is the five-member Board of Supervisors. Period. As you can see by the bolded words ‘executive order’ and ‘directed’ above.
And it bears reminding that the CDC changed its guidelines to allow the vaccination of those over 65 at this time. That change was implemented I believe everywhere in California immediately with the exception of LA County.
And I should add that I had applauded the change in plans and I’m certainly applauding this (albeit late) adherence to that change by the supervisors.
Our hospitals here are overrun not with grocery workers or front line healthcare providers who aren’t sick. They are overrun with those over the age of 65 who are very sick and dying and that is what must be stopped. To bring LA back from this healthcare crisis we have to clear those ICUs and beds and allow the staff of our hospital systems, who are exhausted, to catch their breath.
Someone dies of COVID every six minutes in LA County and a new more contagious parent strain and four offspring strains have all been identified in California and are both fueling this surge and projected to make matters even worse here in the next two months.
So here... targeting the demographic filling our hospitals and our morgues with a vaccination shot that could keep all of those people at home watching television and slow this medical catastrophe down is a no brainer.
Speaking of no brainers, I’ve got to give a shout out to Hilda Solis. She did the right thing here.
But wow. First seniors can’t get the shot even after the CDC changes its guidelines. Now they can. The county supervisors are politicians and Hilda Solis is not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree. A broken clock and all that but it does give pause that people like this were and are the ones making these kinds of life and death decisions.
Right this time. IMO. But just a little unnerving nonetheless._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66914
Location: Where the action is
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| Posted: 01/21/21 11:31 am ::: |
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| Got my first dose today
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I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 01/21/21 2:58 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Got my first dose today |
Good for you, p-daddy.  _________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 6798
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| Posted: 01/21/21 11:55 pm ::: |
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In NYC about a week ago teachers and other 1b folks were getting the vaccine because they were having trouble finding enough 1a status folks willing to take it
Today NY1 is reporting that appointments are being cancelled and the city will be out of doses tomorrow.
I am not equating these two facts just pointing out they were having trouble getting people to take it at first and once they opened it up to more people they quickly ran out of the limited doses we received in the first place.
Last edited by J-Spoon on 01/22/21 12:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9624
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| Posted: 01/21/21 11:56 pm ::: |
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In my area in California the County website is showing one healthcare provider (Stanford) that will give vaccines to people 65 and up. Everyone else is at 75+ or still at 1a. But when I first looked at it I could swear that there was only one 65+ and it was Kaiser and even mentioned that to someone I know who has Kaiser. Anyway, it is curious there is a variance. I guess they don't all have the same proportion of health care workers and 75+ patients, but all get vaccines in proportion to their patient totals.
The 11:00pm news just reported that the State of California is considering switching to a vaccine system based solely on age. Someone said "that was what the UK did". And it was referred to as a simpler system.
This was followed by a report saying that law enforcement departments in Oakland and other cities are demanding to get the vaccine.
I doubt Howee is over 75 as he mentioned the other day that he is active on Grindr. But if he is 75+ - much respect!
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 3515
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| Posted: 01/22/21 7:26 am ::: |
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| Has Biden addressed the supply issues that have been evident from the beginning, other than a vague promise to fix the problem?
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 19760
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| Posted: 01/22/21 2:07 pm ::: |
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| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| Has Biden addressed the supply issues that have been evident from the beginning, other than a vague promise to fix the problem? |
The big thing he's going to do is the Defense Production Act, which should help a lot.
Apparently though, there was absolutely no plan in place from Cheeto - so my guess is beyond the Defense Production Act, they have to look at all the problems first to see what they can do.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 3515
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| Posted: 01/22/21 6:42 pm ::: |
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| mercfan3 wrote: |
| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| Has Biden addressed the supply issues that have been evident from the beginning, other than a vague promise to fix the problem? |
The big thing he's going to do is the Defense Production Act, which should help a lot.
Apparently though, there was absolutely no plan in place from Cheeto - so my guess is beyond the Defense Production Act, they have to look at all the problems first to see what they can do. |
NH is just opening its vax registration to the 1b group, but there's a little problem....
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Vaccine supplies are limited
Please note that approximately 300,000 New Hampshire residents meet the criteria for 1b, but currently, fewer than 20,000 doses are delivered to the state each week. It will take many weeks to get everyone who is eligible vaccinated. |
I have an appt for the end of Feb, but who knows if there will actually be any vaccines available that day.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 01/22/21 7:27 pm ::: |
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| My mother (75+ group) called her doctor this week and found out she had to sign up at her doctor's medical group to get the vaccine. It turns out to be Stanford Healthcare which is the only group in the area taking 65+ (not everyone is doing 75+). She has to wait for an access code to be mailed to her, but her doctor thinks she won't get an appointment till March, and it will be at the fairgrounds.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18030
Location: Queens
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| Posted: 01/22/21 7:47 pm ::: |
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| v. disappointed no one has shortened the thread title to VACCI-NATION
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Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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