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Shades
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 Posted: 01/07/21 1:34 pm ::: |
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| Mack is listed as a senior. No early declaration needed with her. But she can declare to stay another year for that COVID bonus, but that applies to everybody. I’m leaning towards thinking the only players who will take advantage of that probably don’t see themselves as having a serious basketball career and would rather take advantage of that extra year of school, but each player will have their own individual priorities.
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Shades
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| Posted: 01/07/21 1:58 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| That said, Charli’s numbers are up, so he’s probably accomplishing both. |
I wouldn’t give Schaefer too much credit for that, if at all. With Holmes gone, Collier became the go-to post player, and she’s put in much work training in offseason.
| root_thing wrote: |
| NY specifically would be more comfortable taking Collier if she were making 3’s, but that’s not Vic’s problem. |
His problem is not fully utilizing an asset.
| root_thing wrote: |
| Hopkins definitely forced Stokes to shoot 3's |
I doubt he’d “force” it if it turned out she wasn’t particularly good at it.
| root_thing wrote: |
| but Zahui needed no encouragement. Remember, she shot 7-8 from long range against LA the season before when she scored a career high 37 points. |
If she’s capable of that kind of game, it’d be wise to encourage it. Question is why do Liberty fans seem to be done with her even after knowing what kind of game she’s capable of? Zahui’s got to be one of the most dedicated foreign players around, and she definitely wasn’t the Liberty’s biggest problem. I’d be surprised if she doesn’t return, unless they think that the #1 pick is going to come in and do a better job than her right away. I’m very skeptical of that.
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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| Posted: 01/07/21 5:19 pm ::: |
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The #1 pick wont be any better than any post the NYL currently have #Facts.
#TRADEIT
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 01/07/21 6:16 pm ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
| That said, Charli’s numbers are up, so he’s probably accomplishing both. |
I wouldn’t give Schaefer too much credit for that, if at all. With Holmes gone, Collier became the go-to post player, and she’s put in much work training in offseason. |
It doesn't mean she has to play in the low post exclusively. She can be a go-to player while taking more perimeter shots. Staying under the basket is probably what Schaefer wants. That puts her in better position to rebound, and a steady diet of layups usually helps the field goal percentage.
| Shades wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
| NY specifically would be more comfortable taking Collier if she were making 3’s, but that’s not Vic’s problem. |
His problem is not fully utilizing an asset. |
Yes and no. I like coaches who can adjust what they do according to their personnel. However, the reality is that most coaches are system coaches. If Vic's offense relies on a traditional post player, then that's what he knows and does best.
| Shades wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
| Hopkins definitely forced Stokes to shoot 3's |
I doubt he’d “force” it if it turned out she wasn’t particularly good at it. |
Stokes shot 23.5% from long range. I'd call that not particularly good. She's supposedly a great shooter in practice, but we've known that for years. There's a difference. Kiah knows this too, which is why she didn't shoot them before and why she has put up very few in Turkey this winter. Stokes has attempted 0.8 3s per game with Fenerbahce compared to 3.9 attempts with the Liberty.
| Shades wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
| but Zahui needed no encouragement. Remember, she shot 7-8 from long range against LA the season before when she scored a career high 37 points. |
If she’s capable of that kind of game, it’d be wise to encourage it. Question is why do Liberty fans seem to be done with her even after knowing what kind of game she’s capable of? Zahui’s got to be one of the most dedicated foreign players around, and she definitely wasn’t the Liberty’s biggest problem. I’d be surprised if she doesn’t return, unless they think that the #1 pick is going to come in and do a better job than her right away. I’m very skeptical of that. |
In 2019, Amanda scored 37 points in one game and 170 in the other 23 -- which works out to 7.4 ppg. I think it's safe to say the 37 points was an anomaly. As for Liberty fans wanting her off the team, you need to read more closely. What people don't want is Zahui AND Stokes starting TOGETHER. Most are fine with one or the other starting, and having both on the bench is OK too. However, with Stokes having signed an extension, and there being some speculation about Zahui's relationship with Hopkins after a late-season benching (reason unknown), a lot of fans are expecting Amanda to be gone.
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Stormeo
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Richyyy
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| Posted: 01/07/21 8:28 pm ::: |
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| Also, what are they trading it for? All the other teams can see the same selection of players that New York can see... |
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myrtle
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| Posted: 01/07/21 11:07 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| Also, what are they trading it for? All the other teams can see the same selection of players that New York can see... |
maybe they find a team that wants one of the non-post players in the draft?
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myrtle
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| Posted: 01/07/21 11:12 pm ::: |
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thought it interesting to look at the Wooden mid-season list. Looks pretty 'thin' and half of these aren't even coming out this year. Also interesting is that Natasha Mack is missing. And I think both she and Chelsea Perry will go in the first round before quite a few of these:
Aliyah Boston - South Carolina
Paige Bueckers - UConn
Caitlin Clark - Iowa
Charli Collier - Texas
Zia Cooke - South Carolina
Elissa Cunane - NS State
Rennia Davis - Tennessee
Chelsea Dungee - Arkansas
Dana Evans - Louisville
Arella Guirantes - Rutgers
Naz Hillmon - Michigan
Rhyne Howard - Kentucky
Rickea Jackson - Mississippi State
Ashley Joens - Iowa State
Haley Jones - Stanford
N'dea Jones - Texas A&M
Aari McDonald - Arizona
Olivia Nelson-Ododa - UConn
Michaela Onyenwere - UCLA
Lindsay Pulliam - Northwestern
Destiny Slocum - Arkansas
NaLyssa Smith - Texas A&M
Unique Thompson - Auburn
Christyn Williams - UConn
Kiana Williams - Stanford
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J-Spoon
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| Posted: 01/08/21 12:12 am ::: |
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I am not advocating this or against it but to fulfil Dw's vision I could see
NY trades the #1 pick to LA for N. Ogwumike
moving parts on this thought
1. NY's management being back in Barclay's is pressured by ownership for more wins now
2. Chiney decides to move onto broadcasting,
3. LA cores C. Gray and super maxes Parker and doesn't have the money to retain Nneka (I know there is some suggestion that Nneka would take less money but she is the President of the players association that just fought for the new CBA for players to get their respect reflected in their pay is she really then going to turn down being a super max player when she deserves it and this might be her last chance to get that kind of contract?
4. By not signing Nneka LA frees up enough money to probably bring back Sykes and R. Williams and they can fill out the last two spots with pick #1 and pick #10 or Gulich or Igiapova if Anigwe who plays with her overseas can help convince her to show up
Gray/Cooper
Toliver/R. Williams
Sykes/Weiss
Parker/#1 Collier
Vadeeva/Anigwe
5. You can argue that #1 might not be good enough for Ogwumike, or that Ogwumike is to old to be worth #1 but that kind of even its out, and if NY has win now pressure and LA needs cap relief it works for other reasons for both teams
Ionescu/Clarendon
Durr/Jones/(Johannes if she shows can be higher in depth chart)
Nurse/Allen
Ogwumike/(Zahui B)/Walker
Stokes/
that is not a bad core 9 or ten players (especially with Ogwumike as a mentor and star in the post to balance face of the franchise Sabrina on the perimeter. and you still have re-signing Zahui B s an option Zahui B should probably not start on this team but is still a strong option as a 15 - 20 minute a night player if she is backing up Nneka and the Center spot. NY could still try for Cheyenne Parker which could push the team into close to contender status, and of course we still have a bunch of sophomores in Willoughby, Odom, Shook and Holmes or maybe we get lucky with our #17 pick
In short while I think Drafting Collier at #1 and letting the younger Liberty players grow together over a couple more season seems very reasonable, swapping it for a player like Nneka while getting back a healthy Ionescu and Durr, getting Nurse back into her roll as glue player starter as opposed to 1st or 2nd option starter and NY could make some noise.
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myrtle
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| Posted: 01/08/21 9:55 pm ::: |
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I think this isn't totally unreasonable. It might be hard for LA to pull the trigger on that one but if Nneka and Parker are happy with it...maybe. You're trading a known very good 30 year old #1 for an unknown 22 year old #1. And as you say, it might save some of their $ issues.
It more immediately improves NY more than LA so there might need to be a bit more involved.
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myrtle
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| Posted: 01/09/21 9:16 pm ::: |
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| after her performance today, I'm not sure Collier is even close to being a #1. It will be interesting to see how she plays against Mack on the 27th, but so far she's had monster games against subpar opponents and ok, but not awesome games against most real opponents. Then there was today which is just one game, but it was really ugly.
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If only we’re brave enough to be it.
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Stormeo
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Queenie
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| Posted: 01/09/21 11:00 pm ::: |
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| myrtle wrote: |
| after her performance today, I'm not sure Collier is even close to being a #1. It will be interesting to see how she plays against Mack on the 27th, but so far she's had monster games against subpar opponents and ok, but not awesome games against most real opponents. Then there was today which is just one game, but it was really ugly. |
Someone's gotta get drafted first, unless you've got a time machine and a Mobius strip to mess around with.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 01/09/21 11:16 pm ::: |
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Yes, Collier would not be the #1 in a normal year. However, someone has to be the #1 pick. The question from Day 1 has been, “If not Collier, then who?” Rennia Davis had a big game against Arkansas recently, so her bandwagon started up again. But Arkansas is undersized and they generally have trouble defending. The Razorback's starting lineup goes: 6-1, 5-11, 5-9, 5-9, 5-7. They're a bunch of Smurfs. Davis pretty much scored all of her points in the paint – put-backs, post-ups, backdoor cuts. I don’t think she can do that at the next level. Then there’s the Michaela Onyenwere bandwagon, newly re-energized by her big game against Oregon. She basically did the same thing as Davis – score most of her points in the paint. In Onyenwere's case, she faced a Ducks team that does have size, but they lack athleticism. Michaela was able to blow past the bigger players and jump over the smaller ones. Can someone 6-0 tall consistently score most of her points around the rim at the pro level? Probably not.
It's clear that from now on teams are going to pack the paint against Collier. Vic Schaefer needs to come up with a different approach. Maybe the moment has finally come for Vic to let Charli spend more time away from the basket shooting jumpers. Unfortunately, Schaefer is a defensive guy, so I’m not sure how creative he can get with his offense. The one team that might not crowd Collier is Oklahoma State. Natasha Mack is a good enough defender that they may leave her one-on-one against Collier. Those two games (January 27th & February 10th) with Natasha matched up against Charli are going to be very telling. We may finally get a feel for what Collier can do in the pros. We will also see whether or not Collier has actually eclipsed Mack as everyone seems to assume. Mack was the better player last year -- maybe she still is. That second Kansas State game could also be a good test for Collier. Unfortunately, Ayoka Lee got into early foul trouble in the first game. Let's hope she can stay on the court this time around.
If all else fails, NY can roll the dice on Awak Kuier. Being only 19 and playing in a serious pro league for the first time, she doesn’t get a lot of touches. As a low usage player, her overall stats aren’t that impressive. However, given Walt Hopkins's desire to shoot a lot of 3s, Liberty fans might want to note that Kuier is 9-22 40.9% from long-range in 12 games while Collier is 4-10 40% in 10 games. Small sample size for both, but interesting that Kuier who does not have a reputation for shooting 3s is actually taking more than Collier.
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myrtle
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ClayK
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| Posted: 01/10/21 11:57 am ::: |
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| Which is why a lottery pick has almost no trade value ...
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Richyyy
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| Posted: 01/10/21 12:12 pm ::: |
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| If the top spot wasn't New York, and was just Team X, would the discussion about #1 be materially different? Are there perimeter players being overlooked because we all know that the Liberty already have 500 of them? Or if the Liberty roster was the other way round would we just be seeing the same "well I guess we have to take one of them" discussion around Guirantes, McDonald etc.? |
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root_thing
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| Posted: 01/10/21 1:17 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| If the top spot wasn't New York, and was just Team X, would the discussion about #1 be materially different? Are there perimeter players being overlooked because we all know that the Liberty already have 500 of them? Or if the Liberty roster was the other way round would we just be seeing the same "well I guess we have to take one of them" discussion around Guirantes, McDonald etc.? |
The discussion would be similar. If you go through this thread, there are skeptical posts about Guirantes and McDonald. The names might change, but the exchange would have a similar lack of enthusiasm.
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Stormeo
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| Posted: 01/10/21 6:22 pm ::: |
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| If New York gets its gluttony of wing players (aka 3/4s) sorted out and has a much more balanced roster by Draft Night, the pick will be less obvious. As it is, I'm not counting on them trading away some of that gluttony while simultaneously signing/trading for at least one 'upgrade' of a post player (however they'd define 'upgrade', which is a slight unknown in & of itself). I just know that they have no business trotting out the same exact post group as last season & expecting them to be better together with a year under their belt – they'll surely regret it, as the current group simply has little to no collective upside. They need to acquire at least one 'upgrade' in the form of a post player who's better than any post that they have now; and if that can't happen via a free-agent signing or a trade, it would have to happen with their #1 Pick by default. And no, even if Han Xu shows up with all else staying constant, her presence alone will not be enough.
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CamrnCrz1974
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| Posted: 01/12/21 6:10 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| Also, what are they trading it for? All the other teams can see the same selection of players that New York can see... |
Honestly, given Phoenix's salary cap situation plus the need to re-sign Taurasi and others (not to mention Griner's exiting of the Wubble), the Mercury might want to look at trading Griner for a package that would include the #1 pick, another first round pick, and some players.
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ClayK
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| Posted: 01/12/21 7:09 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
| Also, what are they trading it for? All the other teams can see the same selection of players that New York can see... |
Honestly, given Phoenix's salary cap situation plus the need to re-sign Taurasi and others (not to mention Griner's exiting of the Wubble), the Mercury might want to look at trading Griner for a package that would include the #1 pick, another first round pick, and some players. |
If the first pick looked to be an all-star, then maybe. But the first pick looks like like a rotation player, maybe a starter.
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mavcarter
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| Posted: 01/12/21 7:17 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
| Also, what are they trading it for? All the other teams can see the same selection of players that New York can see... |
Honestly, given Phoenix's salary cap situation plus the need to re-sign Taurasi and others (not to mention Griner's exiting of the Wubble), the Mercury might want to look at trading Griner for a package that would include the #1 pick, another first round pick, and some players. |
If the first pick looked to be an all-star, then maybe. But the first pick looks like like a rotation player, maybe a starter. |
Isn’t this what “stars” are usually traded for?
When’s the last time we seen an All Star for an All Star trade?_________________
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| Or maybe said poster should quit being a nuisance when people don’t agree? |
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root_thing
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pilight
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| Posted: 01/12/21 8:10 pm ::: |
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| mavcarter wrote: |
| When’s the last time we seen an All Star for an All Star trade? |
Last February when Briann January and Jessica Breland, both former All Stars, were involved in a three team trade. The third team, Atlanta, did not receive an All Star in the deal.
If you're looking for a straight trade it would be July of 2018 when Alex Bentley was traded for Layshia Clarendon.
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mavcarter
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