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hyperetic



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 09/23/20 8:18 pm    ::: I Don't Know Where Best This Goes But This B--ch... Reply Reply with quote

Loeffler!

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2020/09/gop-senator-introduces-bill-require-genital-exams-girls-competing-school-sports/#.X2uu5_YGDMY.facebook
Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 09/23/20 8:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote




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pilight



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PostPosted: 09/23/20 8:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Loeffler is mostly powerless. 28 sponsored bills and the only one that even got to the floor was a resolution designating March 25, 2020, as "National Cerebral Palsy Awareness Day".



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 09/23/20 10:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Loeffler is mostly powerless. 28 sponsored bills and the only one that even got to the floor was a resolution designating March 25, 2020, as "National Cerebral Palsy Awareness Day".


I've read, I think in a feature several years ago about Kirsten Gillebrand, that appointed Senators are basically persona non grata until then win an election. Only then do their colleagues take them at all seriously.


tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 09/24/20 1:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

What is the opinion here on transgender females competing in sports? They are typically dominant. Scott Adams made a case for them competing on the basis that most (I think a transgender track and field athlete was in the headlines) competitors lose, so any cisgender who loses out to a transgender just experiences what all the other cisgender would experience either way. But it also could mean that a cisgender doesn't get to compete. Although, then it could be said that there may already be cisgenders who didn't get to compete if there are more potential participants than spots


FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 09/24/20 8:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
What is the opinion here on transgender females competing in sports? They are typically dominant. Scott Adams made a case for them competing on the basis that most (I think a transgender track and field athlete was in the headlines) competitors lose, so any cisgender who loses out to a transgender just experiences what all the other cisgender would experience either way. But it also could mean that a cisgender doesn't get to compete. Although, then it could be said that there may already be cisgenders who didn't get to compete if there are more potential participants than spots


No love for a level playing field? Why bother to hold the competition at all? In your example, one additional cis-gender may lose but the one trans-gender most likely has an advantage in winning.

The problem is that we've moved away from a binary definition of gender into a continuum and no one knows where to draw the line in regard to the division of men's and women's sports.

And the appropriateness of transgenders competing is a separate issue from the genitalia exam to identify them.


tfan



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PostPosted: 09/24/20 1:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I am against transgenders competing. I would likely stop watching if the WNBA started to have them. The playing field is never level, but I have seen photos of transgender hurdlers just blowing away smaller less muscular cisgender. If the transgender is taking hormones it is supposed to lower their strength, but it still appears to be a very tilted playing field.


Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 09/24/20 1:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So, you'd rather that trans women be forced to compete against men, where the "playing field" is "tilted" in the opposite direction?



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FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 09/24/20 3:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't think there's any decision that will be fair for everyone. So then what?


Luuuc
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PostPosted: 09/24/20 6:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
I don't think there's any decision that will be fair for everyone. So then what?

Sounds like it's time for the TWNBA
Just think of how much less "go make me a sandwich huhhhuhuhuuh" trolling the WNBA will get once that is up and running!

(Serious answer - I have no idea what the best solution is, but I think that a somewhat level playing field is essential to maintain my personal respect for, and interest in, a competition)



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tfan



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PostPosted: 09/25/20 10:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
So, you'd rather that trans women be forced to compete against men, where the "playing field" is "tilted" in the opposite direction?


Yes. They also could postpone any operation and hormone injections until after their sports career ends, which is 12th grade for most people.


Conway Gamecock



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PostPosted: 09/26/20 4:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
So, you'd rather that trans women be forced to compete against men, where the "playing field" is "tilted" in the opposite direction?


If what we're talking about are transgender females who are merely females in name only, but have biological DNA of normal male homo sapiens, then what would be the issue of having genetically normal male homo sapiens competing with other genetically normal male homo sapiens, who simply perceive themselves as being male?

I mean, if all we're talking about here, are psychological perceptions of gender, how does that impact biological physicality in a competitive contest of physical strength and athleticism? How does that "level" the playing field?


PUmatty



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PostPosted: 09/26/20 4:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:
I don't think there's any decision that will be fair for everyone. So then what?

Sounds like it's time for the TWNBA
Just think of how much less "go make me a sandwich huhhhuhuhuuh" trolling the WNBA will get once that is up and running!

(Serious answer - I have no idea what the best solution is, but I think that a somewhat level playing field is essential to maintain my personal respect for, and interest in, a competition)


I don't know the best solution is either, but I am pretty sure it isn't federally mandated genital examinations of high school girls.


Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 09/26/20 8:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Conway Gamecock wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
So, you'd rather that trans women be forced to compete against men, where the "playing field" is "tilted" in the opposite direction?


If what we're talking about are transgender females who are merely females in name only, but have biological DNA of normal male homo sapiens, then what would be the issue of having genetically normal male homo sapiens competing with other genetically normal male homo sapiens, who simply perceive themselves as being male?

I mean, if all we're talking about here, are psychological perceptions of gender, how does that impact biological physicality in a competitive contest of physical strength and athleticism? How does that "level" the playing field?


Haven't you always wondered what all of those USSR and East German decathletes thought when Bruce Jenner became Caitlyn?



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FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 09/26/20 9:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ex-Ref wrote:
Conway Gamecock wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
So, you'd rather that trans women be forced to compete against men, where the "playing field" is "tilted" in the opposite direction?


If what we're talking about are transgender females who are merely females in name only, but have biological DNA of normal male homo sapiens, then what would be the issue of having genetically normal male homo sapiens competing with other genetically normal male homo sapiens, who simply perceive themselves as being male?

I mean, if all we're talking about here, are psychological perceptions of gender, how does that impact biological physicality in a competitive contest of physical strength and athleticism? How does that "level" the playing field?


Haven't you always wondered what all of those USSR and East German decathletes thought when Bruce Jenner became Caitlyn?


That he got caught and they didn't?


Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 09/26/20 11:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
I don't think there's any decision that will be fair for everyone.


What does "fair" actually even mean, in this context?



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Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 09/26/20 11:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
So, you'd rather that trans women be forced to compete against men, where the "playing field" is "tilted" in the opposite direction?


Yes. They also could postpone any operation and hormone injections until after their sports career ends, which is 12th grade for most people.


So, basically, you want for trans people to not exist. Or, rather, you want them to be forced to closet themselves, and/or commit self-erasure, if they want to participate in sports which, from my point of view, is the same thing.



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Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 09/26/20 11:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Conway Gamecock wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
So, you'd rather that trans women be forced to compete against men, where the "playing field" is "tilted" in the opposite direction?


If what we're talking about are transgender females who are merely females in name only, but have biological DNA of normal male homo sapiens, then what would be the issue of having genetically normal male homo sapiens competing with other genetically normal male homo sapiens, who simply perceive themselves as being male?


Wow, took you less than fifteen words to be transphobic as fuck. Congratulations.

Quote:
I mean, if all we're talking about here, are psychological perceptions of gender, how does that impact biological physicality in a competitive contest of physical strength and athleticism? How does that "level" the playing field?


I personally don't give a rat's ass about "leveling" the playing field. That was me using @tfan's words, with every single bit of the derision that I felt for them. I care about giving an opportunity for trans people to participate in athletic activities under the gender they identify as.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 09/27/20 2:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
tfan wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
So, you'd rather that trans women be forced to compete against men, where the "playing field" is "tilted" in the opposite direction?


Yes. They also could postpone any operation and hormone injections until after their sports career ends, which is 12th grade for most people.


So, basically, you want for trans people to not exist. Or, rather, you want them to be forced to closet themselves, and/or commit self-erasure, if they want to participate in sports which, from my point of view, is the same thing.


To repeat, I said they should compete with boys or men. But that could be as trans females. They could also compete against other trans females if there are enough of them.


gpark33



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PostPosted: 09/28/20 2:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

When I was slightly younger, I played rec (obviously very different than competitive) softball and American flag football in gay leagues. Transgender people were allowed to play with men or women, wherever they felt the most comfortable. It was a complete mixed bag based on personal choice and we all lived happily ever after.



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hyperetic



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PostPosted: 09/28/20 11:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think a lot of the uneasiness besides transphobia is what I will call the Juwanna Mann scenario. Some are against what they perceive to be an unfair advantage. Especially in pugilistic sports because of the apprehension that the damage a biological woman gets from a trans woman could be far greater and more severe than with other biological women.
calbearman76



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PostPosted: 10/10/20 10:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The real issue is women's sports in general. While I believe that girls and women's sports provide many benefits for the competitors, the very concept of women's sports runs counter to gender equality. I say that not as an opponent of women's sports but as a realist about the concept of "equality."

Women's sports need rules to determine who is eligible because an underlying assumption is that allowing "non-women" to compete would make it nearly impossible for women to be competitive. Breanna Stewart and Aja Wilson would find it difficult to even make a Division 1 college basketball team.

Once you make the decision to divide the sexes arbitrary determinations have to be made. While it may wind up discriminating against some it is a necessary evil. (And no, I don't think genital exams are necessary.)


Howee



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PostPosted: 10/11/20 6:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
....because an underlying assumption is that allowing "non-women" to compete would make it nearly impossible for women to be competitive. Breanna Stewart and Aja Wilson would find it difficult to even make a Division 1 college basketball team.


....you mean on a men's team?? Not clear on your point there, otherwise.

Re: the OP? Yes, Loeffler is an idiot. But that was established before this. Razz

Re: Trans in sports? It's a delicate concern, but it ISN'T a huge percentage of people. And the 'range' of situations could be pretty wide: Renee Richards, the trans tennis player decades ago made huge news, but she really wasn't advantaged in any way when she competed against women in pro tennis events. And....have there ever been any FTM trans athletes that have made any big impact in their chosen sport?

I have long wondered why they even separate genders in sports like: Archery, Ping Pong, Marksmanship, or Bowling, to name a few.



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