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Guess how many 2020 Liberty rooks make it to the 2021 roster
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Predict how many Liberty rookies from 2020 make it to their 2021 roster!
All 7 make it
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
6
3%
 3%  [ 1 ]
5
19%
 19%  [ 6 ]
4
35%
 35%  [ 11 ]
3
22%
 22%  [ 7 ]
2
12%
 12%  [ 4 ]
1
6%
 6%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 31

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Stormeo



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 10:46 pm    ::: Guess how many 2020 Liberty rooks make it to the 2021 roster Reply Reply with quote

By popular demand! Wink How many of the Liberty's rookies of the past season end up on their 2021 roster at the beginning of the regular season? How many don't get cut or traded before the Liberty's season opener?

The rookies in question:
#1 Sabrina Ionescu, 5'11 G – 3 Games (3 Games Started), 26 Minutes Per Game, 18 PPG, 45% FG, 35% 3PT, 4.7 RPG, 4.0 APG
#9 Megan Walker, 6'1 F – 18 G (0 GS), 11 MPG, 3 PPG, 32% FG, 14% 3PT
#10 Jocelyn Willoughby, 6'0 F/G – 22 G (5 GS), 17 MPG, 5 PPG, 35% FG, 40% 3PT
#12 Jazmine Jones, 6'0 G – 20 G (2 GS), 21 MPG, 10 PPG, 40% FG, 33% 3PT, 4.1 RPG
#13 Kylee Shook, 6'4 F – 20 G (0 GS), 14 MPG, 4 PPG, 40% FG, 17% 3PT
#15 Leaonna Odom, 6'2 F – 22 G (16 GS), 20 MPG, 5 PPG, 49% FG, 25% 3PT
#19 Joyner Holmes, 6'3 F – 19 G (0 GS), 10 MPG, 2 PPG, 30% FG, 10% 3PT

Discuss how many – and who – and why!



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 11:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I am going 5 (if we are including Ionescu)

Ionescu duh
Jones (Double digit rookie scoring and rising to the challenge after loss of Ionescu)
Odom (Fit with starters, seems to have the coaches trust)
Walker (Gets pass on 20 season for illness and reputation)
Shook (NY doesn't have enough posts, Shook is the only true post rookie who got a chance to prove herself)

leaving Willoughby as odd woman out
and
Holmes as just too much of a project

(notes I could see Willoughby make it over Walker and Holmes make it over Shook but I wouldn't bet on it)

with that said
other 7 spots to go with the 5 rookies
Clarendon, Durr, Nurse, Allen, Stokes, Lottery Pick, Free Agent

I see NY not being willing to pay Zahui enough (Minny and Atl seem like possible suitors, or maybe LV depending on what Laimbeer thinks of her, or Indy if they don't bring back Dupree) and bringing Allen back in as a stretch 4. The lottery pick will be a post Ch. Collier (early, Mack or R. Davis) the free agent will also be a post (I like the poaching Ch. Parker idea NY can offer her max, she is a 5 in NY system but also has the range Hopkins likes) I don't see NY especially if we are in another weird year having the appeal to get multiple free agents or the assets to pull off a big trade,

2021 becomes a reboot on the rebuild with Ionescu and Durr in for the season, a real season for Walker to prove herself and the remaining sophomores to develop. In 22 with Johannes and Han as possible returning players, as well as a decent draft pick )lottery or just outside) in a strong draft the remaining sophomores who don't take a big step forward will be out, or they will knock some vets Stokes, Clarendon, Allen (or even Nurse if she doesn't bounce back) out instead.




Last edited by J-Spoon on 10/01/20 11:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
Stormeo



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 11:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

From the other poll, including Ionescu, my vote was 4: Ionescu, Walker, Jones, and Shook.

Ionescu is untradeable, Walker has no trade value as of now, Jones to me brings enough to the table now as a slasher-scorer that she would mix well with the returning pure shooters, and Shook makes it over Holmes by virtue of the Liberty still needing post players.

I see Holmes getting cut (too raw), and one if not both of Odom and Willoughby getting traded (skilled enough to help other teams, but won't properly thrive on this team).

I meant to include a "none make it" option lol whoops, but it's not even realistic to predict less than 3 make it to next year (let alone zero!) imo.



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Stormeo



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 11:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon I like your group of 5! It's very realistic, especially since Allen and Talbot are still out of contract. And don't feel bad about writing too much, you know that's how you best express yourself. Very Happy

Sorry if this derails from racking up the pages on the Liberty 2021 thread! Embarassed



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 11:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yup this is impossible I am already questioning my own thought process

Not saying I am changing (I think my first thought is accurate in terms of who might show and what NY can attract) but hypothetical Zahui in Shook out

making it 4 including Ionescu with Jones, Odom and Walker

(NY has too many players I still want to work Kea in, damn, and what if Johannes want to play some in 21 that is another rookie gone)

Ionescu/Clarendon
Durr/Nurse/Jones
Allen/Odom
Lottery pick (Ch. Collier or Davis)/Zahui B/Walker
Free Agent(Ch. Parker)/Stokes

OK this
trying to increase wins and possibly competing for playoff spot while rebuilding and being OK with one more down year if it happens. Stokes, Zahui B and Nursse out of the starting line up is an interesting curve ball if we can improve all of their spots with other option while keeping them for depth (but I guess this is more for NY 21 thread).

Oh well I have been chatty the last few days


myrtle



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 12:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I chose 4...but not exactly knowing which 4. I think Ionescu and Jones and two more - call them x3 and x4 mostly because I don't think he will give up on the whole lot of them unless several really good players come knocking on the door and wanting to play for cheap. Even Jones is a question mark since I think she may have as good of trade value right now that she will ever have...maybe. And none of the rest of them have much, if any, trade value. Shook has a chance to stick since they are short (pun intended) on posts, but I wouldn't say that any of them are sure bets.



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Stormeo



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 12:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
I chose 4...but not exactly knowing which 4. I think Ionescu and Jones and two more - call them x3 and x4 mostly because I don't think he will give up on the whole lot of them unless several really good players come knocking on the door and wanting to play for cheap. Even Jones is a question mark since I think she may have as good of trade value right now that she will ever have...maybe. And none of the rest of them have much, if any, trade value.


It's hard because everyone other than Ionescu will be prone to being on the trade market. And while Jones clearly had the best rookie year, that also theoretically means she has the most value amongst the others (unless a team has like a morbid fascination with Walker or something – though even that doesn't seem impossible). So regardless of how this year unfolded for the Liberty's rookies, it sort of becomes a crapshoot anyway in how the LFO has to evaluate these players as it relates to who to try to trade and who to prioritize as part of their future. Like, if teams are only interested in Jones and no other rookie, and someone has something like an intriguing post player as a return, can the Liberty afford to pass it up? I don't think so. No idea how free agency unfolds for this team, or the rest of the League. Exciting times though! (for now, while nothing is set in stone yet!)

myrtle wrote:
Shook has a chance to stick since they are short (pun intended) on posts


Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 8:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The free agent offerings are pretty impressive this year and NY must have the cap space to sign a couple of big names. Then they can fill in the needs at the remaining spots. As Myrtle said, Ionescu and Jones plus ?two.


root_thing



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 10:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I’m officially on record as saying I have no clue what management will do. However, if you push me into a corner and beat me with a soft pillow, this would be my guess:

PG: Ionescu, Clarendon
SG: Durr, Jones
SF: Nurse, Odom
SF as PF: Allen, Willoughby
True posts: Free agent or trade acquisition, Stokes, 1st Rd Pick, Shook

Five sophomores and Walker gets traded. This is based on comments from Hopkins/Kolb during the year as well as my old standby measurement for coach's love: minutes played.



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 12:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
I’m officially on record as saying I have no clue what management will do. However, if you push me into a corner and beat me with a soft pillow, this would be my guess:

PG: Ionescu, Clarendon
SG: Durr, Jones
SF: Nurse, Odom
SF as PF: Allen, Willoughby
True posts: Free agent or trade acquisition, Stokes, 1st Rd Pick, Shook

Five sophomores and Walker gets traded. This is based on comments from Hopkins/Kolb during the year as well as my old standby measurement for coach's love: minutes played.


I dunno. This version of the team looks like a lottery special to me.



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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 12:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
The free agent offerings are pretty impressive this year and NY must have the cap space to sign a couple of big names.

Laughing So much cap space. If they want people and people want to go there, it's not going to be a problem.



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Stormeo



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 12:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
root_thing wrote:
I’m officially on record as saying I have no clue what management will do. However, if you push me into a corner and beat me with a soft pillow, this would be my guess:

PG: Ionescu, Clarendon
SG: Durr, Jones
SF: Nurse, Odom
SF as PF: Allen, Willoughby
True posts: Free agent or trade acquisition, Stokes, 1st Rd Pick, Shook

Five sophomores and Walker gets traded. This is based on comments from Hopkins/Kolb during the year as well as my old standby measurement for coach's love: minutes played.


I dunno. This version of the team looks like a lottery special to me.


It's really in New York's best interest to still finish outside the playoffs in 2021, no matter who they acquire. A 2022 lottery pick should be ultra-valuable.

Aww heck… I'll go on record saying I think they should highly consider trying to trade their lottery pick this year – even if it's another #1 overall – to a team for a 2022 first-rounder, ideally to a team that they believe will (still) be crappy in 2021. (They ought to wait until after free agency blows over to do that to get a better idea, but yeah). Even if it's another #1 Pick though, I don't know how many takers (and what kind of takers, at that) they'd have. I bet it's already an avenue Kolb/Hopkins are considering going down.



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WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 12:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
I’m officially on record as saying I have no clue what management will do. However, if you push me into a corner and beat me with a soft pillow, this would be my guess:

PG: Ionescu, Clarendon
SG: Durr, Jones
SF: Nurse, Odom
SF as PF: Allen, Willoughby
True posts: Free agent or trade acquisition, Stokes, 1st Rd Pick, Shook

Five sophomores and Walker gets traded. This is based on comments from Hopkins/Kolb during the year as well as my old standby measurement for coach's love: minutes played.


Where's Zauhi ?



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Stormeo



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 12:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
root_thing wrote:
I’m officially on record as saying I have no clue what management will do. However, if you push me into a corner and beat me with a soft pillow, this would be my guess:

PG: Ionescu, Clarendon
SG: Durr, Jones
SF: Nurse, Odom
SF as PF: Allen, Willoughby
True posts: Free agent or trade acquisition, Stokes, 1st Rd Pick, Shook

Five sophomores and Walker gets traded. This is based on comments from Hopkins/Kolb during the year as well as my old standby measurement for coach's love: minutes played.


Where's Zauhi ?


Not in New York, 09. Razz Many including myself think or predict that Zahui B. doesn't want to come back and/or by way of extending Stokes, the Liberty sent a message that they don't want her back. Maybe Zahui B. returns to the franchise that drafted her?



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WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 1:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
root_thing wrote:
I’m officially on record as saying I have no clue what management will do. However, if you push me into a corner and beat me with a soft pillow, this would be my guess:

PG: Ionescu, Clarendon
SG: Durr, Jones
SF: Nurse, Odom
SF as PF: Allen, Willoughby
True posts: Free agent or trade acquisition, Stokes, 1st Rd Pick, Shook

Five sophomores and Walker gets traded. This is based on comments from Hopkins/Kolb during the year as well as my old standby measurement for coach's love: minutes played.


Where's Zauhi ?


Not in New York, 09. Razz Many including myself think or predict that Zahui B. doesn't want to come back and/or by way of extending Stokes, the Liberty sent a message that they don't want her back. Maybe Zahui B. returns to the franchise that drafted her?


I would take her , but there's a reason she was traded so i doubt it happens. The reggie miller package turns me off Laughing



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 1:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I believe I was the person who first suggested having a poll, so I now feel a responsibility to vote and explain my list. Even though, to quote and agree with root_thing, "I have no clue what management will do." SO many variables: possible trades, possible free-agent signings, possible draftees, decisions by international players to come to New York or not, the state of Covid-19 and how that will affect the planned Olympics and other matters.

I believe that anyone under contract could perhaps be traded except for Ionescu and Nurse. Kia had such a bad season that her trade value is quite low. Kolb and Hopkins may as well bring her back and see what happens.

As for the other rookies:

I believe Megan Walker will be gone. This is just a guess, but I took her limited playing time in the second half of the season as meaning that Hopkins wasn't happy with her. Given that she was chosen ahead of five other rookies, it seemed noteworthy that she was given so little court time.
I see her traded or even just released if no one is willing to give up anything for her in a trade.

Conversely, I believe Willoughby will be back. Another guess, but I have a feeling that Hopkins really likes Willoughby.

I see Odom returning because of her strong defense and Holmes gone for reasons others have stated.

I view Shook as a "maybe," depending on what happens with Zahui B. (whom I suspect will be elsewhere) and what other post players Kolb and Hopkins are able to sign as free agents, trade for, or draft. Shook could be the last post player on the bench--or not.

I am far more ambivalent about Jones than some others here. At her best, she looked far better than some of the rookies named above--but that's no great tribute. Jones's worst was troubling. Part of it, of course, was the adjustment to sometimes playing point guard, but not all of it. I can see Jones back, but if I were Kolb or Hopkins I'd consider trading her since she'll have trade value.

So I'm concluding: Ionescu yes, Walker no, Willoughby yes, Odom yes, Holmes no, Shook maybe, Jones maybe. I'm voting for four rookies back, though I'm not certain which four.



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Last edited by Bob Lamm on 10/02/20 1:30 pm; edited 2 times in total
Stormeo



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 1:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
Where's Zauhi ?


Not in New York, 09. Razz Many including myself think or predict that Zahui B. doesn't want to come back and/or by way of extending Stokes, the Liberty sent a message that they don't want her back. Maybe Zahui B. returns to the franchise that drafted her?


I would take her , but there's a reason she was traded so i doubt it happens. The reggie miller package turns me off Laughing


Ugh I really wish you would start spilling your teaaaaa 😩😂



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 2:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
root_thing wrote:
I’m officially on record as saying I have no clue what management will do. However, if you push me into a corner and beat me with a soft pillow, this would be my guess:

PG: Ionescu, Clarendon
SG: Durr, Jones
SF: Nurse, Odom
SF as PF: Allen, Willoughby
True posts: Free agent or trade acquisition, Stokes, 1st Rd Pick, Shook

Five sophomores and Walker gets traded. This is based on comments from Hopkins/Kolb during the year as well as my old standby measurement for coach's love: minutes played.


I dunno. This version of the team looks like a lottery special to me.


Compared to what? Unless NY signs a bunch of free agents, next year's squad is going to look similar to this year's lottery team. You like most people guessed 4 returning rookies. One more 2nd year player off the bench vs a veteran off the bench is not going to make much difference. The rest of my projected roster is pretty much in line with everybody else. In theory, there are a lot of free agents available, but also a lot of competition for their services. New York has a lot of cap space, but so do the other rebuilding teams. I doubt the Liberty will be able to pull in more than one free agent. Trades will be very competitive too.

As for Megan Walker, I suspect some team out there will be interested. No one who tested positive and missed training camp had a good year except for Courtney Williams. And there were other rookies drafted ahead of Walker who had their struggles (Cox, Alarie, Herbert-Harrigan). I will also point out that Katie Lou Samuelson got traded after a dreadful rookie year. If coaches or GMs like a player, they'll look past bad seasons affected by injury or illness.



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 2:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I guess I was being hopeful that NY could sign at least one really good FA and another pretty good one. Together with Io coming back and (hopefully) the lottery pick, that would totally change the complexion of the team IMO. Your lineup is making very few moves and is maybe more realistic. I actually think losing Zahui is a bigger loss than most are making of it. And I agree that Walker should have value. Personally I'd keep her on the team if possible, even if it's at the expense of Odom or Willoughby. But yeah, if another team makes a big offer for her then sure, go for the trade.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 2:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I only evaluated the rookies; I didn't name a projected 12-player roster. But the roster posted by root_thing looks quite reasonable to me. "Lottery special"? Looks very unlikely to me that any 12-player roster for 2021 will be significantly better than the one posted by root_thing.

I can imagine the Liberty being better than a lottery team in 2021... but it'll require various players (not just this year's rookies) playing better than they have. Obviously Kia Nurse being one of them.



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 3:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Although not a rookie but a newcomer, where does Paris Kea end up? Any chance they'll keep her over Clarendon?


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PostPosted: 10/02/20 3:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

While I agree that we will keep 3/4 of the other sophomores and have a second rebuild year with Ionescu, Durr and the new lottery pick heavily featured

If management wants to make a bigger splash (or even has a mandate to) and not be a lottery team special there are some pretty achievable free agents

Ch. Parker looks poachable because of Chicago cap space (ideally they might want to save some for 22 as well with Deshields and Steven becoming RFA)

If Washington wants Meeseman and Charles and Cloud and EDD return Powers could be achievable for big money.

Bring back Zahui and Allen hold on to Kea and suddenly we look OK

Ionescu/Clarendon
Durr/Nurse/Kea
Powers/Allen
Zahui B/Lottery pick/*
Ch. Parker/Stokes

* leaves room for one sophomore (take your pick Jones, Walker, Willoughby, Odom, Shook or Holmes we can slide around enough with our wings that it doesn't really matter what position we the sophomore is, lets say Odom for now). Making 2 an easily achievable answer to this poll

with Ionescu, Durr, Nurse, Kea, lottery pick and 1 sophomore that is enough cheaper contracts to probably offer Powers and Ch. Parker max and Zahui and Allen biggish contracts


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PostPosted: 10/02/20 8:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I've already admitted above that I have no idea what's going to happen with the 2021 Liberty roster. But consider this. Suppose that when we have the 12-player roster to begin the 2021 season it includes Sabrina Ionescu plus only one other 2020 Liberty rookie. (Pick your favorite.)

Imagine a press conference with Kolb and Hopkins. Imagine that some journalist asks the question I'd love to ask: "So Jonathan, Walt, on 2020 draft night and soon thereafter you spoke glowingly of your six non-Sabrina rookies. Yet only ONE of those six players is on your roster for 2021. What should Liberty fans take from that?" Smile



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 10:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

As I’ve said before, if you dump most of the players from this past season, then what did you accomplish in 2020? All that supposed development – using real games as practice - goes down the toilet. We just endured the pain of watching the worst offense in WNBA history, and then management says, “oops, never mind.” There is no way they don’t bring back at least four of those rookies unless a bunch get traded.

As for the other players mentioned, I think I started the Cheyenne Parker bandwagon -- although it may have been on the other board. Razz Parker would be my top target based on basketball ability as well as the realistic chance of getting her. I’m also one of the original Paris Kea fans going back to before the 2019 Draft (I think Myrtle and WNBA 09 were the other two). However, I’d be surprised if management keeps her over Jones or Odom. Jazmine had a deceptively good rookie season. Her stats are better than those of Kia Nurse as a rookie. Jones reminds me of Tiffany Hayes, and Jazmine’s numbers are also better than those of Hayes as a rookie. In fact, Jones had a statistical year very similar to Jewel Loyd’s when the latter won ROY. Now, in fairness, it should be pointed out that Jones is two years older than Loyd and a year older than Hayes when those two players were rookies. Still, it’s something to think about. As far as Odom goes, she started 16 of 22 games, played the 6th most minutes, and took on the toughest defensive assignments among perimeter players. Maybe Odom gets traded, but there is no way management simply cuts her.

I’ve always liked Aerial Powers, but she has played in only 104 of her team’s 158 regular season games (65.8%). She also missed her true freshman season in college due to an ACL injury. Powers just seems like a big risk, and she’s probably going to cost a good amount of money. Maybe she’s a chance worth taking if you’re a contender looking for that final piece. But for a rebuilding team, I’d rather take my chances on our second-year players getting better.

It’s been mentioned many times before that Zahui and Stokes are a terrible offensive tandem, and that Amanda was probably the better player to keep. However, assuming management didn’t sign Stokes just to trade her, then she’s going to get minutes alongside whatever free agent post we hopefully sign. Therefore, also bringing back Zahui means she’ll block the developmental players from getting minutes. I’d rather our 1st Round pick or even Shook get the playing time.



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Last edited by root_thing on 10/02/20 10:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
tfan



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 10:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

New York may have the money to sign big name free agents but those players don’t normally sign with the last place team.


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