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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 20408



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PostPosted: 06/24/20 2:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Luuuc wrote:

Personally I think that there are few people better able - when it comes to personal experience, smarts, and ability to express themselves - to speak on racial issues than Trevor Noah.


Why anyone would, however, "think that there are few people better able - when it comes to personal experience, smarts, and ability to express themselves - to speak on racial issues than Trevor Noah" is, I believe something we need to explore.

So let's talk about this. Did you really mean to say, in your opinion, that there are few people better able to speak on racial issues IN AMERICA than Trevor Noah?

No.

America is not that special. I know many Americans live in a bubble like the rest of the world doesn't exist, and I know that plenty of details are specific to the US and to particular regions in the US. But plenty more is universal. Racism is universal. Groups of people picking on minorities who are different is universal.
I don't know how many South Africans you know. I know plenty because for decades Perth has a very popular destination for them to emigrate to. I've never seen anything like the levels of unabashed overt racism from the average American as I have from the average white South African. I'm probably working with a skewed sample, considering some of them probably come here for race-based reasons. Then we've got our own big original racism problem with our indigenous people (arguably worse than the US's problem), our more recent issue with south east Asians, our most recent one with Sudanese, and of course we can't help but be constantly updated with news from the centre of the universe - the USA.
At the heart of all of these are pretty universal themes IMO. So just as you said:
jammerbirdi wrote:
I think what you're asserting here, Luuuc, is coming from a place that's like, racism and bigotry is universal, here is a guy who has experienced a nightmare manifestation of it, he's smart and all that.

He's smart, he's lived both sides of it, but he's also a good communicator, which is the key part. Someone who has all the answers is still kinda useless if they are unable to get their point across.
Personally I like material that isn't in-your-face preachy, but rather prompts you to uncover the little epiphany moments yourself. I find that method way more effective when it comes to walking in someone else's shoes, and to me attempting to picture myself in someone else's shoes seems absolutely crucial in getting anywhere with an issue that is "us vs a different type of people" as this one is.
Some white guy like me can't walk in a black person's shoes. I have to rely on other people painting me the most vivid pictures possible, pictures that don't just have good detail, but inspire empathy. And I happen to think that TN is a damn fine painter, and his time living in several different pairs of shoes likely contributes to that.

jammerbirdi wrote:
So who better to scold Americans on the issue of race? Is that what you're saying to me?

Who said anything about scolding though? After everything that has been said and re-quoted and whatever, and based on the words I have written, why the f would you suddenly claim that I would think some foreigner scolding Americans is the best answer?
So I get we can both bristle at each others' suggestions now.

Just so there is no ambiguity here, my previously stated opinion about TN's value as a communicator on this topic is not based on a meme that I've already said I didn't think highly of, nor is it based on his Daily Show satire that is largely a preaching to the choir and mocking the other people role. It's based on attending his live show that was very much centred around race and was far from the "let's make sure it's just laughs and completely non-confronting to these white aussies" experience that you're likely assuming it was, and on reading his book.

Locale-specific issues relating to history or local laws or whatever... that's small stuff to me. It's the universal fundamentals that need to be fixed and they need to be fixed everywhere. The other stuff naturally takes care of itself.
You'll need to tell me more about what's so special about racial equality in Minneapolis or Atlanta that makes the fundamentals non-applicable to Perth, Australia. Why is it possible for a childhood story from a South African to be enjoyed by me but not by you? Maybe we're simply just different individuals and so different things resonate with each of us, and the fact that something resonates with me and not you does not necessarily mean that I was trying to be offensive to you.


I don't agree with much of this but that first thing I bolded? Yeah. This has always been about fundamental educational and economic inequality and the hoarding of all that opportunity and the happy prosperous lives it provides. That is what is going on here, there, and everywhere. Fix that, and the rest will take care of itself.

I'd absolutely love to fully explain to you why the details of the shared experiences of blacks and whites together in this country is so very different than Perth or South Africa and that thoroughly understanding and Americans discussing among themselves all the ramifications of those shared histories down to the personal stories and experiences of anyone who has something to say is essential to this country ever healing these fissures along what is now an ever growing racial divide.

This is our fight in America. To understand each other.

BUT, yeah, if we could snap our fingers and all the childhoods could be equal, all the educational systems were equal including the networking that begins with early childhood, if people were placed into the colleges they deserve to go to based on the grades and if somehow hiring for jobs from skilled labor all the way up to the professional class and those working in media and the arts, all that good stuff, if all that hiring was done BLINDLY based on the work that was presented to those doing the hiring, etc. lol. Yeah, you could skip the race relations therapy sessions. Things would work out.

But Luuuc, that shit is the whole point. Is anyone watching the videos I'm posting from Krystal Ball and Saager Enjeti? They're all over this. Racial division in America is a feature not a bug. It's how a select group keep their grip on power and opportunity and their class and how they continue to pass all that good stuff on to their progeny. There is NO talk in this country throughout anything that has happened in the last month on CNN or anywhere else about fixing American once and for all for black Americans. NOTHING.

So the second bolded part of your post. This sentence.

Quote:
Why is it possible for a childhood story from a South African to be enjoyed by me but not by you?


You've been going on in this thread about straw men. Maybe I just don't understand what a straw man argument is but I could have sworn I saw you firing them off like bottle rockets here on the Fourth of July.

I don't even know how to approach this question. Enjoyed? Possible. You, but not me? I just don't know.



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
Luuuc
#NATC


Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 20574



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PostPosted: 06/24/20 3:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Let's go back a step then.
jammerbirdi wrote:
This is our fight in America. To understand each other.
jammerbirdi wrote:
Racial division in America is a feature not a bug.


I'm not saying those things are not true.
I'm asking: where are those things NOT the case?

When it comes to race, I haven't seen anything that I wouldn't categorise as "same old shit, different location"
You happen to have a police problem on top of a race problem.
Down here we actually have a similar combo in slightly different proportions, but the victims of our race problem don't have numbers or cultural impact on their side so it took your movement to give ours some momentum. So thanks for that.
You've got your own high fructose corn syrup flavour of it, sure, but #BLM is global.



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justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8278
Location: Northfield, MN


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PostPosted: 06/24/20 9:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/wALwzjVwM7g" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>



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PickledGinger



Joined: 04 Oct 2013
Posts: 709



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PostPosted: 06/27/20 5:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
[Is anyone watching the videos I'm posting from Krystal Ball and Saager Enjeti?


Yeah, I did. And I stopped after the first video because nothing I heard rang true. I believe what I see, not what I watch.

As a 35 year old white male living on Capitol Hill, 4 blocks from CHOP, I am completely disgusted by the narrative that what is happening there is a war between order and chaos. Since the police left the East Precinct, the lack of police presence in my neighborhood is noticeable in that I actually feel SAFER being able to walk from my apartment to the grocery store that is 3 blocks away WITHOUT seeing a Reinforced Police Vehicle. Even as a VERY white man, I can easily identify that the influence and militarization of our police force borders on totalitarianism. The fact that protesters are being labelled by media as violent when they are defending themselves against rubber bullets, tear gas, flash bangs and full riot gear with umbrellas is just insane. False narrative. True definition of fake news.

If you want to label me as someone who is trying to deny conversation, than go ahead. But I have no doubt in my mind that you are the one doing just that. Society as a whole is rapidly moving past the world view that you are trying to propagate.

If you have questions about my experiences, ask away. That is what the actual ideals of free speech and honest communication are all about. But don't try to shut me down with one-sentance clap-backs - or try to deny someone's right to free speech through visual media - just because you disagree with their message. THAT is what freedom of speech is all about.


CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18227
Location: Phoenix


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PostPosted: 06/30/20 4:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
[Is anyone watching the videos I'm posting from Krystal Ball and Saager Enjeti?


I did not watch the videos, in part because in a thread where many posters have interpreted your actions/words as prohibiting their expression of thoughts through the sourced words of others, you posted multiple videos, presumably using them to express your thoughts through the sourced words of others.


mercfan3



Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 18814



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PostPosted: 06/30/20 9:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Okay Jammer, you asked what was racist about your post..I'm going to answer.

First off, in general..in your posts/analysis/novels..you write as if you do not understand white privilege.

In your follow up to my post, you mention some excruciating - traumatic - experiences of yours.

No one would ever say the white people do not experience trauma or haven't had bad experiences.

As I've said, I come from a white working class family. I have worked with poor and working class white kids. The trauma they have experienced makes me sick.

Many of these experiences and trauma occur because of economic class. I get that. We all get that.

What I am saying, is that those experiences do not and did not happen because people are white. They do happen because people are Black or Hispanic.

Furthermore, much of society has been crafted to create an inability for minorities to rise in social class. Meaning now, oppressive experiences occur because of both a lack of resources and race.

As for your specific post..

Why is it racist? It completely ignores the relationship between police and black people and people of color in this country.

Is being a police officer a dangerous job? Absolutely. Without question - they need more training. Three months to learn how to safely use weapons, de escalate situations, be a therapist, a social worker, evaluate dangerous situations..and do it on 14 hour shifts..All after being brainwashed by society to fear people of color. Yes. Absolutely. Significant training needs to be done.

People don't become racist when they join the police force. People are trained to be racist from the time they are children because of the society we all grow up in. There needs to be some major retraining.

Let's start with this:

"..that we all greatly benefit from someone else doing."

That's it. That's the whole point. We all DON'T benefit from someone else doing it. Black and Hispanic people absolutely do not benefit from cops or the criminal justice system in this country.

Black people are not protected by the police. The police do not arrest their murderers. If they are arrested, prosecutors do not seek the death penalty for the murder of black lives. The police do not arrest their rapists. The police question their ability to own valuable property instead of protecting their property.

The police target minorities. A black or hispanic man is 3X as likely to be the victim of violence by a police officer as a white man ..in the same setting. (place/situation etc..)

Yes, that man in the video did not behave as he should. That does not mean the police had a right to kill them.

Furthermore, what I am saying..what many people in this thread are saying..what data says...and what Trevor Noah is saying...it is unlikely that he would have died had he been white.

Fuck - if police officers can repeatedly manage to bring out white mass shooters alive, they could have managed to keep this man alive too.

So why was your post (and reaction) racist?

Reason #1: Your post lacked that understanding of conflict between Black/Brown people in this country and the police..or it was being intentionally ignorant to it. Bad actors don't deserve to die. And when it comes to the police and criminal justice system, it appears that - repeatedly - the only "bad actors" that die are minorities.

Second..the discussion of "criminals" completely ignores how loaded that term is.

As if we haven't historically criminalized Black and Hispanic males for the benefit of white people in this country.

Our society views Black and Hispanic kids as criminals for smoking weed, wearing a hoodie, and just existing..and yet white violent rapists are "good kids," white middle aged men have "mental health issues" and white women must be victims of something. It's ingrained in us. From the media. From our institutions. It just is.

Again - Police have to battle that brainwashing...that doesn't make the situation not racist. Cops react the way they do because they are afraid of black people - because that's what society taught them to be.

So when you say, "this election will come down to which side you are on..the police or criminals" ..what you are saying is.."this election will come down to which side you are on..the police or Black and Brown lives." Because white people aren't labeled as criminals no matter how violent their actions, and Black and Brown people are labeled as criminals without breaking the law.

Reason #2: Your post is racist because it completely ignores the historical labeling of the term "criminal." White people are rarely - if ever - labeled criminal. Excuses are always made for them. That term only applies to black people and Hispanic people, simply for existing.


That being said, in a round about way - I agree with you. I think this election will - yet again - be a battle for this nation's heart. Are we as racist as our past suggests - probably. Do we regret the past four years? The horrifically violent actions of this administration against people of color in this country? (From locking children up in cages, to refusing aid to Puerto Rico, to undoing Obama's Criminal Justice Reforms, to refusing to aid States when Covid is impacting Black and Brown lives the most..) Probably not. I expect white voters to vote the way white voters always vote..in a way that maintains white privilege.

I will continue to call out those thoughts for what they are. Because as I've said in the past - we have to address the racism in our thoughts and behavior in order to change it in society. You start by pointing it out.

Reason #3: your post is racist because - again - your post ignored many of the voices of this country. Your post painted Americans with a broad - and very white - stroke. There are other perspectives in this country. The very idea that those thoughts are what real Americans think - or whatever - is racist.

More importantly..however..Genero's response was not calling your post racist. It was a response to the excuses you made for police officers. It was a firm - No. These people would have had a much higher chance of survival if they were white.

Trevor Noah is 100% correct about that.



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readyAIMfire53



Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 5777
Location: Durham, NC


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PostPosted: 07/08/20 4:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
Okay Jammer, you asked what was racist about your post..I'm going to answer.

First off, in general..in your posts/analysis/novels..you write as if you do not understand white privilege.

In your follow up to my post, you mention some excruciating - traumatic - experiences of yours.

No one would ever say the white people do not experience trauma or haven't had bad experiences.

As I've said, I come from a white working class family. I have worked with poor and working class white kids. The trauma they have experienced makes me sick.

Many of these experiences and trauma occur because of economic class. I get that. We all get that.

What I am saying, is that those experiences do not and did not happen because people are white. They do happen because people are Black or Hispanic.

Furthermore, much of society has been crafted to create an inability for minorities to rise in social class. Meaning now, oppressive experiences occur because of both a lack of resources and race.

As for your specific post..

Why is it racist? It completely ignores the relationship between police and black people and people of color in this country.

Is being a police officer a dangerous job? Absolutely. Without question - they need more training. Three months to learn how to safely use weapons, de escalate situations, be a therapist, a social worker, evaluate dangerous situations..and do it on 14 hour shifts..All after being brainwashed by society to fear people of color. Yes. Absolutely. Significant training needs to be done.

People don't become racist when they join the police force. People are trained to be racist from the time they are children because of the society we all grow up in. There needs to be some major retraining.

Let's start with this:

"..that we all greatly benefit from someone else doing."

That's it. That's the whole point. We all DON'T benefit from someone else doing it. Black and Hispanic people absolutely do not benefit from cops or the criminal justice system in this country.

Black people are not protected by the police. The police do not arrest their murderers. If they are arrested, prosecutors do not seek the death penalty for the murder of black lives. The police do not arrest their rapists. The police question their ability to own valuable property instead of protecting their property.

The police target minorities. A black or hispanic man is 3X as likely to be the victim of violence by a police officer as a white man ..in the same setting. (place/situation etc..)

Yes, that man in the video did not behave as he should. That does not mean the police had a right to kill them.

Furthermore, what I am saying..what many people in this thread are saying..what data says...and what Trevor Noah is saying...it is unlikely that he would have died had he been white.

Fuck - if police officers can repeatedly manage to bring out white mass shooters alive, they could have managed to keep this man alive too.

So why was your post (and reaction) racist?

Reason #1: Your post lacked that understanding of conflict between Black/Brown people in this country and the police..or it was being intentionally ignorant to it. Bad actors don't deserve to die. And when it comes to the police and criminal justice system, it appears that - repeatedly - the only "bad actors" that die are minorities.

Second..the discussion of "criminals" completely ignores how loaded that term is.

As if we haven't historically criminalized Black and Hispanic males for the benefit of white people in this country.

Our society views Black and Hispanic kids as criminals for smoking weed, wearing a hoodie, and just existing..and yet white violent rapists are "good kids," white middle aged men have "mental health issues" and white women must be victims of something. It's ingrained in us. From the media. From our institutions. It just is.

Again - Police have to battle that brainwashing...that doesn't make the situation not racist. Cops react the way they do because they are afraid of black people - because that's what society taught them to be.

So when you say, "this election will come down to which side you are on..the police or criminals" ..what you are saying is.."this election will come down to which side you are on..the police or Black and Brown lives." Because white people aren't labeled as criminals no matter how violent their actions, and Black and Brown people are labeled as criminals without breaking the law.

Reason #2: Your post is racist because it completely ignores the historical labeling of the term "criminal." White people are rarely - if ever - labeled criminal. Excuses are always made for them. That term only applies to black people and Hispanic people, simply for existing.


That being said, in a round about way - I agree with you. I think this election will - yet again - be a battle for this nation's heart. Are we as racist as our past suggests - probably. Do we regret the past four years? The horrifically violent actions of this administration against people of color in this country? (From locking children up in cages, to refusing aid to Puerto Rico, to undoing Obama's Criminal Justice Reforms, to refusing to aid States when Covid is impacting Black and Brown lives the most..) Probably not. I expect white voters to vote the way white voters always vote..in a way that maintains white privilege.

I will continue to call out those thoughts for what they are. Because as I've said in the past - we have to address the racism in our thoughts and behavior in order to change it in society. You start by pointing it out.

Reason #3: your post is racist because - again - your post ignored many of the voices of this country. Your post painted Americans with a broad - and very white - stroke. There are other perspectives in this country. The very idea that those thoughts are what real Americans think - or whatever - is racist.

More importantly..however..Genero's response was not calling your post racist. It was a response to the excuses you made for police officers. It was a firm - No. These people would have had a much higher chance of survival if they were white.

Trevor Noah is 100% correct about that.


Extremely well stated MercFan!!!



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