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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 04/08/20 10:16 am ::: |
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cthskzfn wrote: |
Schaeffer is in my wcb coach top tier. |
Mine as well. Great coach, built something from nothing at Miss St, great hire for Texas.
I didnt understand your comment though that Dawn was happy about this. Why?
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lynxmania
Joined: 18 Feb 2011 Posts: 10697 Location: Minnesota
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Posted: 04/08/20 10:38 am ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
cthskzfn wrote: |
Schaeffer is in my wcb coach top tier. |
Mine as well. Great coach, built something from nothing at Miss St, great hire for Texas.
I didnt understand your comment though that Dawn was happy about this. Why? |
I assume it would be because she wouldn't have to face him anymore in conference.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014 Posts: 3516
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Posted: 04/08/20 10:39 am ::: |
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Because Dawn won't have to face him 2-3 times/year? While that seems logical, I'm not sure she's that intimidated.
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ucbart
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 2815 Location: New York
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Posted: 04/08/20 11:40 am ::: |
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FrozenLVFan wrote: |
Because Dawn won't have to face him 2-3 times/year? While that seems logical, I'm not sure she's that intimidated. |
I think it pulls her further away as the clear front runner in the SEC. IMO, with similar talent level teams, Scaheffer can out coach Dawn by a country mile. Until this year, I didn't think Dawn was a good coach at all. And I still don't think she is that great of an X's and O's coach in the half court. SC was good because of speed, power, and athleticism. She is this generations Pat Summit.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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Posted: 04/08/20 2:23 pm ::: |
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FrozenLVFan wrote: |
Because Dawn won't have to face him 2-3 times/year? While that seems logical, I'm not sure she's that intimidated. |
I didn't say, nor do I think, Dawn was intimidated.
But, now there is no one to challenge her in the SEC.
_________________ Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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Davis4632
Joined: 14 Jul 2014 Posts: 861
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Posted: 04/08/20 2:28 pm ::: |
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ucbart wrote: |
FrozenLVFan wrote: |
Because Dawn won't have to face him 2-3 times/year? While that seems logical, I'm not sure she's that intimidated. |
I think it pulls her further away as the clear front runner in the SEC. IMO, with similar talent level teams, Scaheffer can out coach Dawn by a country mile. Until this year, I didn't think Dawn was a good coach at all. And I still don't think she is that great of an X's and O's coach in the half court. SC was good because of speed, power, and athleticism. She is this generations Pat Summit. |
I guess since it's all about UConn, I guess Dawn finally became a became a good coach because she finally defeated UConn. The narrative that Dawn was intimidated by Vic isn't true. Dawn has a winning record against Vic, including defeating him in the national championship game. Dawn went 7-1 against Vic in the A'ja Wilson era, Vic went 1-7 against Dawn he had Vivians and McCowan together. Dawn has won 5 regular and 5 tournament titles while Vic was the coach at Miss St.
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ucbart
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 2815 Location: New York
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Posted: 04/08/20 2:48 pm ::: |
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Davis4632 wrote: |
ucbart wrote: |
FrozenLVFan wrote: |
Because Dawn won't have to face him 2-3 times/year? While that seems logical, I'm not sure she's that intimidated. |
I think it pulls her further away as the clear front runner in the SEC. IMO, with similar talent level teams, Scaheffer can out coach Dawn by a country mile. Until this year, I didn't think Dawn was a good coach at all. And I still don't think she is that great of an X's and O's coach in the half court. SC was good because of speed, power, and athleticism. She is this generations Pat Summit. |
I guess since it's all about UConn, I guess Dawn finally became a became a good coach because she finally defeated UConn. The narrative that Dawn was intimidated by Vic isn't true. Dawn has a winning record against Vic, including defeating him in the national championship game. Dawn went 7-1 against Vic in the A'ja Wilson era, Vic went 1-7 against Dawn he had Vivians and McCowan together. Dawn has won 5 regular and 5 tournament titles while Vic was the coach at Miss St. |
That is NOT what I said, like at all. I said it widens the gap. And then I explained why. I actually think her win against UCONN did nothing for her ability to coach this year.....because frankly, she should've beaten us this year. I think it says more about her coaching that we've used SC like a snot rag every time we've played them, prior to this season.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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Posted: 04/08/20 3:03 pm ::: |
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Davis4632 wrote: |
ucbart wrote: |
FrozenLVFan wrote: |
Because Dawn won't have to face him 2-3 times/year? While that seems logical, I'm not sure she's that intimidated. |
I think it pulls her further away as the clear front runner in the SEC. IMO, with similar talent level teams, Scaheffer can out coach Dawn by a country mile. Until this year, I didn't think Dawn was a good coach at all. And I still don't think she is that great of an X's and O's coach in the half court. SC was good because of speed, power, and athleticism. She is this generations Pat Summit. |
I guess since it's all about UConn, I guess Dawn finally became a became a good coach because she finally defeated UConn. The narrative that Dawn was intimidated by Vic isn't true. Dawn has a winning record against Vic, including defeating him in the national championship game. Dawn went 7-1 against Vic in the A'ja Wilson era, Vic went 1-7 against Dawn he had Vivians and McCowan together. Dawn has won 5 regular and 5 tournament titles while Vic was the coach at Miss St. |
Mainly because there NEVER WAS such a narrative.
_________________ Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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RavenDog
Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Posts: 6878 Location: Home
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Posted: 04/08/20 3:29 pm ::: |
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Let the New Era Begin... Welcome Vic!
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Davis4632
Joined: 14 Jul 2014 Posts: 861
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Posted: 04/08/20 3:36 pm ::: |
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ucbart wrote: |
Davis4632 wrote: |
ucbart wrote: |
FrozenLVFan wrote: |
Because Dawn won't have to face him 2-3 times/year? While that seems logical, I'm not sure she's that intimidated. |
I think it pulls her further away as the clear front runner in the SEC. IMO, with similar talent level teams, Scaheffer can out coach Dawn by a country mile. Until this year, I didn't think Dawn was a good coach at all. And I still don't think she is that great of an X's and O's coach in the half court. SC was good because of speed, power, and athleticism. She is this generations Pat Summit. |
I guess since it's all about UConn, I guess Dawn finally became a became a good coach because she finally defeated UConn. The narrative that Dawn was intimidated by Vic isn't true. Dawn has a winning record against Vic, including defeating him in the national championship game. Dawn went 7-1 against Vic in the A'ja Wilson era, Vic went 1-7 against Dawn he had Vivians and McCowan together. Dawn has won 5 regular and 5 tournament titles while Vic was the coach at Miss St. |
That is NOT what I said, like at all. I said it widens the gap. And then I explained why. I actually think her win against UCONN did nothing for her ability to coach this year.....because frankly, she should've beaten us this year. I think it says more about her coaching that we've used SC like a snot rag every time we've played them, prior to this season. |
That some revisionist history because the perception of South Carolina coming into the season was their team it was just a couple of senior role players and some freshmen.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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Posted: 04/08/20 7:10 pm ::: |
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Davis4632 wrote: |
ucbart wrote: |
Davis4632 wrote: |
ucbart wrote: |
FrozenLVFan wrote: |
Because Dawn won't have to face him 2-3 times/year? While that seems logical, I'm not sure she's that intimidated. |
I think it pulls her further away as the clear front runner in the SEC. IMO, with similar talent level teams, Scaheffer can out coach Dawn by a country mile. Until this year, I didn't think Dawn was a good coach at all. And I still don't think she is that great of an X's and O's coach in the half court. SC was good because of speed, power, and athleticism. She is this generations Pat Summit. |
I guess since it's all about UConn, I guess Dawn finally became a became a good coach because she finally defeated UConn. The narrative that Dawn was intimidated by Vic isn't true. Dawn has a winning record against Vic, including defeating him in the national championship game. Dawn went 7-1 against Vic in the A'ja Wilson era, Vic went 1-7 against Dawn he had Vivians and McCowan together. Dawn has won 5 regular and 5 tournament titles while Vic was the coach at Miss St. |
That is NOT what I said, like at all. I said it widens the gap. And then I explained why. I actually think her win against UCONN did nothing for her ability to coach this year.....because frankly, she should've beaten us this year. I think it says more about her coaching that we've used SC like a snot rag every time we've played them, prior to this season. |
That some revisionist history because the perception of South Carolina coming into the season was their team it was just a couple of senior role players and some freshmen. |
Preseason SCar was 8/10, UConn was 5/4. By Week 11, SCar was 1/2 and UConn was 4/5. The game was played in week 15.
UConn was the obvious underdog and the game evolved that way. Massey predicted an 8 pt Cocks win and the final was 70-52.
_________________ Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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Conway Gamecock
Joined: 23 Jan 2015 Posts: 1900 Location: Here
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Posted: 04/08/20 7:45 pm ::: |
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ucbart wrote: |
FrozenLVFan wrote: |
Because Dawn won't have to face him 2-3 times/year? While that seems logical, I'm not sure she's that intimidated. |
I think it pulls her further away as the clear front runner in the SEC. IMO, with similar talent level teams, Scaheffer can out coach Dawn by a country mile. Until this year, I didn't think Dawn was a good coach at all. And I still don't think she is that great of an X's and O's coach in the half court. SC was good because of speed, power, and athleticism. She is this generations Pat Summit. |
Pretty interesting take. Schaefer was 3-12 versus Dawn Staley during his time at Miss State. He brought the Bulldog program to national status, but with his best talent he was 0-4 versus USC in the SECT championship game, and 0-1 in NCAAT championship games.
His best year against Staley and USC was the 2018-19 season which many can argue was Schaefer's best team in terms of depth and talent, and can also argue that that season was Staley's least-prepared team since the 2010-11 season. Schaefer won 2 of his 3 games that season - he was 1-12 in all other seasons. That is pretty much considered being dominated by most other standards.
Schaefer's signature strength that he brings to teams is his defensive philosophies. He handled the defense when he was Gary Blair's assistant coach at Texas A&M, that helped them win the national championship in 2011. He carried that over to Starkville, and it has been their primary team strength in his time there.
Dawn Staley's signature strength is also defense. Under Staley, USC's defensive rankings on a league and national scale have been elite:
Scoring Defense: - USC (SEC/WCBB) - MSU's ranking under Schaefer
08-09: 158th / 8th
09-10: 205th / 10th
10-11: 90th / 6th
11-12: 4th / 1st
12-13: 5th / 1st - 187th / 8th
13-14: 8th / 2nd - 72nd / 7th
14-15: 12th / 1st - 38th / 6th
15-16: 25th / 2nd - 27th / 3rd
16-17: 24th / 1st - 35th / 2nd
17-18: 81st / 5th - 21st / 1st
18-19: 227th / 9th - 39th / 2nd
19-20: 20th / 1st - 85th / 5th
FG % Defense:
08-09: 255th / 12th
09-10: 247th / 11th
10-11: 297th / 11th
11-12: 108th / 4th - 50th / 2nd
12-13: 32nd / 1st - 123rd / 7th
13-14: 5th / 1st - 177th / 10th
14-15: 10th / 1st - 56th / 5th
15-16: 11th / 1st - 94th / 8th
16-17: 19th / 1st - 153rd / 9th
17-18: 27th / 2nd - 101st / 5th
18-19: 143rd / 6th - 84th / 4th
19-20: 4th / 1st - 145th / 6th
Schaefer was never Staley's level at coaching consistent, stellar defense: only 1 team can lead a league at any one time, but Schaefer's teams only reached the top 25 national scoring defense once, compared to 7 times for Staley - plus 3 top 10 times, versus 0 times for Schaefer.
As for FG % D, Miss State only reached the top 50 national rankings once, and that was 50th, compared to USC having 7 top 50, 5 top 25, and 3 top 10 FG % D rankings under Staley.
Finally, this notion of "SC was good because of speed, power, and athleticism" - what team in the SEC doesn't have athleticism? That was what Pat Summitt brought to the SEC. And calling a Miss. State team with Morgan Williams a team without speed, or a Miss State team with Teaira McCowan a team without power, or a Miss State team with Victoria Vivians or Anriel Howard a team without athleticism, well......you might be trying a bit too hard there.....
Last edited by Conway Gamecock on 04/08/20 9:04 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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calbearman76
Joined: 02 Nov 2009 Posts: 5155 Location: Carson City
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Posted: 04/08/20 7:53 pm ::: |
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I really don't see how people can just assume Vic Schaeffer will be a total success at Texas. He has shown that he is a very good coach in Starkville, but coaching in Austin is a very different thing. Charlie Strong was a great young football coach who built Louisville into a national powerhouse. He went to Texas and 3 years later he was run out of town on a rail. Gail Goestenkors was at the top of women's college basketball, having gone 157-19 in her final 5 years at Duke (Geno was 157-22.) And Karen Aston came in under great fanfare, having had great success at Charlotte and winning 15 games in her 1 season at North Texas, more than the Mean Green had won in their previous 2 years combined.
Vic Schaeffer may be successful at UT, but Austin is a far cry from Starkville. I will wait and see.
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Conway Gamecock
Joined: 23 Jan 2015 Posts: 1900 Location: Here
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Posted: 04/08/20 8:54 pm ::: |
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Scoring Offense:
12-13: 183rd / 13th - 287th / 14th
13-14: 63rd / 4th - 93rd / 7th
14-15: 18th / 1st - 30th / 3rd
15-16: 33rd / 3rd - 82nd / 5th
16-17: 20th / 1st - 22nd / 2nd
17-18: 37th / 4th - 11th / 1st
18-19: 28th / 2nd - 2nd / 1st
19-20: 6th / 2nd - 12th / 3rd
FG %:
12-13: 155th / 11th - 271st / 12th
13-14: 6th / 1st - 199th / 12th
14-15: 4th / 1st - 171st / 9th
15-16: 16th / 2nd - 168th / 10th
16-17: 6th / 1st - 28th / 3rd
17-18: 10th / 1st - 14th / 2nd
18-19: 43rd / 5th - 5th / 1st
19-20: 10th / 2nd - 9th / 1st
Even offensively, Dawn Staley has out-performed Vic Shaefer: in scoring offense, MSU had 1 more top 25 ranking than USC, but USC had 6 consecutive top 50 rankings to MSU's 5 total top 50 rankings, and out-ranked MSU 6 seasons out of 8.
And USC was easily the better shooting team as well, with 4 first-place finishes in the SEC to MSU's 2, and 5 top 10 national finishes to 2 for MSU as well....
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8227 Location: Heisenberg
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Posted: 04/08/20 11:46 pm ::: |
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In general, generalizations are too general, but it's generally true that UConn fans dislike Dawn Staley.
I believe that's because they see her as a threat to their tribe, and tribalists don't like threats. I noticed this same UConn tribal phenomenon with other coaches who were treated neutrally or even favorably until they became a threat to UConn, such as Vivian Stringer, Gail Goestenkors and Muffet McGraw, at which point they became strongly disliked.
There is something about Staley that I don't like either. Maybe it's the way she dresses and talks, but I'm not sure.
However, to claim she's not an elite coach is puzzling. She turned around a struggling Temple program and turned it into a consistent A10 power, and then turned around a crappy S. Carolina program into a consistent national power. She's clearly one of the very top recruiters in the country -- which is the most important attribute for a coach -- and is also a very good defensive coach. Her offense is not as appealing to me as the best teams at UConn, Notre Dame, Stanford and now Oregon, but I can't name too many others beyond that. |
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013 Posts: 7842 Location: Shenandoah Valley
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Posted: 04/09/20 11:06 am ::: |
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GG didn't really have Texas connections. Vic is a TAMU grad. See the difference there?
_________________ Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 04/09/20 1:18 pm ::: |
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summertime blues wrote: |
GG didn't really have Texas connections. Vic is a TAMU grad. See the difference there? |
I don't see how being a TAMU grad alone means he has a Texas recruiting network or close relationships with key in-state coaches, players, handlers, etc. I don't recall him paying any special attention to Texas high schools. Fortunately for him, U of Texas largely recruits itself in Texas. But then again, Goestenkors enjoyed that same advantage and didn't do much with it.
He should consider hiring a well known Texas assistant or HS coach who already has those relationships.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 66916 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 04/09/20 1:25 pm ::: |
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Note that none of the players on Mississippi State are from Texas
_________________ I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
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Davis4632
Joined: 14 Jul 2014 Posts: 861
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Posted: 04/09/20 2:15 pm ::: |
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Vic's former center who is considered by many to be his best player, Teaira McCowan is from Texas. I believe Vic's daughter is from Texas too.
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Carol Anne
Joined: 09 Apr 2005 Posts: 1739 Location: Seattle
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013 Posts: 7842 Location: Shenandoah Valley
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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Posted: 04/11/20 10:58 am ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
summertime blues wrote: |
GG didn't really have Texas connections. Vic is a TAMU grad. See the difference there? |
I don't see how being a TAMU grad alone means he has a Texas recruiting network or close relationships with key in-state coaches, players, handlers, etc. I don't recall him paying any special attention to Texas high schools. Fortunately for him, U of Texas largely recruits itself in Texas. But then again, Goestenkors enjoyed that same advantage and didn't do much with it.
He should consider hiring a well known Texas assistant or HS coach who already has those relationships. |
He may have contacts from his Sam Houston State head-coaching days.
_________________ Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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