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mavcarter
#NATC
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 Posted: 03/10/20 7:46 pm ::: Re: Penny Toler files suit against Sparks |
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Was low of me to put [Deleted]’s name, it’s been deleted._________________
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| Or maybe said poster should quit being a nuisance when people don’t agree? |
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 03/10/20 7:51 pm ::: |
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| I deleted my responsive post as well, and if anyone who quoted it would care to delete it, that would be good.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 03/10/20 7:52 pm ::: |
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| Much respect to you both for that!
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Luuuc
#NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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| Posted: 03/10/20 7:58 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| Much respect to you both for that! |
Ditto. Thanks.
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StevenHW
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 03/10/20 9:46 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
Well as to the material facts about whether or not there were these inappropriate sexual relationships, that would be something very, very odd--not to mention stupid--to lie about in a court filing. There are numerous people involved or who she claims knows about them who could be subpoenaed, and if she were making up the facts she would know these people would undercut her claims and her case would be thrown out in a heartbeat.
The legal question is almost certainly not whether these relationships happened or not, but rather whether her reporting them and confronting the individuals is what led to her being fired. |
To me, it looks like a vindictive and sensationalist filing. 'Let me flaunt everything I know or think I know about people I don't like and who did me wrong'
If there are people who saw Agler and x inflagrante I would be very surprised at that much indescretion, so really the only person to likely subpoenae would be x. Who knows how willing x would be to come forward. You could get people to surmise a lot just like we do here on the boards, but to actually know what happened is another matter. And in fact it seems pretty remote that whether or not Agler had an inappropriate relationship would have anything whatsoever to do with her firing. It might have to do with his moving on, and it would probably be a legitimate reason for x to file a metoo type lawsuit, but as for Toler, the other alleged relationships are more apt to have something to do with her firing. So why even include the Agler bit except for the sensational nature?
I would think the defendants could easily claim that her desire to trade Parker while they believed she was their franchise player and wanted to show loyalty was a primary reason she was fired...along with the aforementioned locker room speech. There are likely other choices she made where there were business related disagreements.
But whatever comes out of the lawsuit, a lot of people (like you) will assume all her allegations are true even if they are never proved or are dis-proved to have anything to do with her firing.
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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Location: Dallas , Texas
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| Posted: 03/10/20 9:53 pm ::: Re: Penny Toler files suit against Sparks |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
He would not be the first to do this and still be a coach in the WNBA right ? Back then it was ok to speculate about that duo or was it more appropriate because it was on the college platform ? I do agree its not fair to say players names without having facts . |
Yes, unfortunately this has happened before without much as far as long term ramifications. But I would hope that even in the last couple years since the #MeToo movement our understanding of the role power dynamics can play on consent and just how problematic these sorts of relationships are, has deepened.
As far as names, yes, I would stick to what is actually being reported and publicly shared. I get the impulse to try and figure it out, it's a pretty human response. It's just that when you step back and think about it, it's kind of gross, and really not what we should be about here. |
Well said JustNtyme I agree 100%
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Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019
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| Posted: 03/10/20 10:10 pm ::: |
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It seems like a fascinating cause-and-effect case study we have. Toler is able to get justifiably fired because of her own misconduct, which causes her to file her lawsuit that in the process airs out the Sparks' dirty laundry over her tenure - which the public otherwise likely wouldn't have ever known about. And whether or not her misconduct is the actual reason she was fired is of course at the root of her lawsuit.
So now because of all this, the collateral damage may spill into another organization. What should the Dallas Wings organization do with this information about their current head coach? Separately, I wonder what the org. will actually do with this, starting with any statement they may (have to) make.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 03/10/20 10:19 pm ::: |
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The idea that only two people know about a relationship is unlikely. The player never talked to friends? Teammates didn't know about it? According to the filing, the league actually brought the issue back up and asked Toler about it years later. So obviously someone in the league office can attest to having heard about it as well. And someone obviously went to the league, thus that's another person.
There are simply too many people out there that could either undercut or support the facts of this case for someone to outright lie about them. This is an offical court filing with her claims being made under the penalty of perjury, it'snot some tabloid rumor floating around social media. Lying about something that you know to be untrue and so easily refuted to top it off would be incredibly stupid.
Now even if all the who-slept-with-who facts are true, does that mean she was actually fired inappropriately? That's the part that is going to be an uphill climb and to prove.
As for why she included the Agler part it's essential to her case for gender based discrimination. She is saying, "They claimed I was fired for using an inappropriate term in a locker room setting from which no complaints arose from those present. But yet a male coach had said similar things on the sidelines leading to actual complaints and no discipline at all was levied his way. Not only that the team didn't even fire him after he had an inappropriate sexual relationship with a player and was accused of making inappropriate sexual advances. So obviously there are different standards for discipline between men and women, and thus they discriminated against me when they fired me."
If she was told that her reason for firing was due to the comments she made, and they didn't also include anything about her performance, she actually has a fairly strong case based upon this. If however they included the comments and referenced her job performance and/or other factors, her case becomes much weaker as she would have to demonstrate that those factors were not the ultimate reason she was fired and thus what differentiated her case with that of Agler.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 03/10/20 11:07 pm ::: |
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| The parties named may be able to counter sue claiming Toler slandered them with false claims if they were indeed false. Putting all that stuff in, whether relevant or not, was partly, as myrtle suggests vindictive, but may also have been calculated to push the Sparks into a quick settlement. Her lawyer's resume looks pretty credible so I don't think she would be inclined to put forth false claims in a lawsuit.
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jap
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jap
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| Posted: 03/11/20 12:19 am ::: |
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| Not exactly the kind of Sparks' news I was looking for. How is this going to affect the team moving forward?
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 03/11/20 8:51 am ::: |
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In all seriousness, if the allegations against Agler are true I don’t see how he survives. In the Me Too era, he becomes persona non grata and it doesn’t matter that he moved to another team. Look at the Astros sign-stealing scandal where the Red Sox felt obligated to fire manager Alex Cora and the Mets had to terminate newly hired Carlos Beltran. If the charges are confirmed, there is no difference between Agler and other higher-profile men who have been pushed out – like Charlie Rose, Louis CK or Garrison Keillor. Being blackballed at 61 (62 in August) also means that Agler’s career may be over in terms of coaching at any high visibility level.
Sorry, Dallas fans. Not picking on you or the Wings -- just trying to be realistic.
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DFWub2018
Joined: 24 Aug 2018
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| Posted: 03/11/20 9:18 am ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
In all seriousness, if the allegations against Agler are true I don’t see how he survives. In the Me Too era, he becomes persona non grata and it doesn’t matter that he moved to another team. Look at the Astros sign-stealing scandal where the Red Sox felt obligated to fire manager Alex Cora and the Mets had to terminate newly hired Carlos Beltran. If the charges are confirmed, there is no difference between Agler and other higher-profile men who have been pushed out – like Charlie Rose, Louis CK or Garrison Keillor. Being blackballed at 61 (62 in August) also means that Agler’s career may be over in terms of coaching at any high visibility level.
Sorry, Dallas fans. Not picking on you or the Wings -- just trying to be realistic. |
I completely understand what you are saying and to be honest, if he doesn't survive this issue here in Dallas, I would not be all that upset about it because honestly, I really feel there are several players on this team whom don't really care for Agler all that much, atleast judging by there interactions and reactions with him during games! There have been times when he and Arike have had words and it was blatantly obvious that she was clearly annoyed by him...same with Azura, so if there is someone else out there that would have a better relationship with all 12 players in addition too being good at what they do, I'm down for it!!!
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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Location: Dallas , Texas
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| Posted: 03/11/20 10:53 am ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
In all seriousness, if the allegations against Agler are true I don’t see how he survives. In the Me Too era, he becomes persona non grata and it doesn’t matter that he moved to another team. Look at the Astros sign-stealing scandal where the Red Sox felt obligated to fire manager Alex Cora and the Mets had to terminate newly hired Carlos Beltran. If the charges are confirmed, there is no difference between Agler and other higher-profile men who have been pushed out – like Charlie Rose, Louis CK or Garrison Keillor. Being blackballed at 61 (62 in August) also means that Agler’s career may be over in terms of coaching at any high visibility level.
Sorry, Dallas fans. Not picking on you or the Wings -- just trying to be realistic. |
How would this fall under me too if it was consensual ?
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BamaEd
Joined: 11 May 2014
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| Posted: 03/11/20 11:01 am ::: |
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| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
In all seriousness, if the allegations against Agler are true I don’t see how he survives. In the Me Too era, he becomes persona non grata and it doesn’t matter that he moved to another team. Look at the Astros sign-stealing scandal where the Red Sox felt obligated to fire manager Alex Cora and the Mets had to terminate newly hired Carlos Beltran. If the charges are confirmed, there is no difference between Agler and other higher-profile men who have been pushed out – like Charlie Rose, Louis CK or Garrison Keillor. Being blackballed at 61 (62 in August) also means that Agler’s career may be over in terms of coaching at any high visibility level.
Sorry, Dallas fans. Not picking on you or the Wings -- just trying to be realistic. |
How would this fall under me too if it was consensual ? |
If the player felt they had to continue the relationship in order to secure her place on the roster or in the rotation, then it definitely is. If it was consensual all around, I will let another speak.
But wow, this is all so messy.
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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| Posted: 03/11/20 11:24 am ::: |
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| BamaEd wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
In all seriousness, if the allegations against Agler are true I don’t see how he survives. In the Me Too era, he becomes persona non grata and it doesn’t matter that he moved to another team. Look at the Astros sign-stealing scandal where the Red Sox felt obligated to fire manager Alex Cora and the Mets had to terminate newly hired Carlos Beltran. If the charges are confirmed, there is no difference between Agler and other higher-profile men who have been pushed out – like Charlie Rose, Louis CK or Garrison Keillor. Being blackballed at 61 (62 in August) also means that Agler’s career may be over in terms of coaching at any high visibility level.
Sorry, Dallas fans. Not picking on you or the Wings -- just trying to be realistic. |
How would this fall under me too if it was consensual ? |
If the player felt they had to continue the relationship in order to secure her place on the roster or in the rotation, then it definitely is. If it was consensual all around, I will let another speak.
But wow, this is all so messy. |
Agreed , these types of scandals exist in all leagues though so i guess its something keeping the WNBA relevant. I saw this on sportscenter last night as one of the main topics.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 03/11/20 12:41 pm ::: |
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| BamaEd wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
In all seriousness, if the allegations against Agler are true I don’t see how he survives. In the Me Too era, he becomes persona non grata and it doesn’t matter that he moved to another team. Look at the Astros sign-stealing scandal where the Red Sox felt obligated to fire manager Alex Cora and the Mets had to terminate newly hired Carlos Beltran. If the charges are confirmed, there is no difference between Agler and other higher-profile men who have been pushed out – like Charlie Rose, Louis CK or Garrison Keillor. Being blackballed at 61 (62 in August) also means that Agler’s career may be over in terms of coaching at any high visibility level.
Sorry, Dallas fans. Not picking on you or the Wings -- just trying to be realistic. |
How would this fall under me too if it was consensual ? |
If the player felt they had to continue the relationship in order to secure her place on the roster or in the rotation, then it definitely is. If it was consensual all around, I will let another speak.
But wow, this is all so messy. |
And it wasn't just the consummated relationship. Toler suggests that Agler made unwanted advances to other players.
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| Toler said the former coach’s “sexually predatory conduct caused certain Sparks players to complain that he made them uncomfortable, and compelled other Sparks players to leave the team altogether.” Agler eventually resigned and is currently coaching Dallas. |
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SportsGuru
Joined: 20 May 2005
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| Posted: 03/11/20 12:55 pm ::: |
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| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| BamaEd wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
In all seriousness, if the allegations against Agler are true I don’t see how he survives. In the Me Too era, he becomes persona non grata and it doesn’t matter that he moved to another team. Look at the Astros sign-stealing scandal where the Red Sox felt obligated to fire manager Alex Cora and the Mets had to terminate newly hired Carlos Beltran. If the charges are confirmed, there is no difference between Agler and other higher-profile men who have been pushed out – like Charlie Rose, Louis CK or Garrison Keillor. Being blackballed at 61 (62 in August) also means that Agler’s career may be over in terms of coaching at any high visibility level.
Sorry, Dallas fans. Not picking on you or the Wings -- just trying to be realistic. |
How would this fall under me too if it was consensual ? |
If the player felt they had to continue the relationship in order to secure her place on the roster or in the rotation, then it definitely is. If it was consensual all around, I will let another speak.
But wow, this is all so messy. |
Agreed , these types of scandals exist in all leagues though so i guess its something keeping the WNBA relevant. I saw this on sportscenter last night as one of the main topics. |
I disagree, these types of scandals don't happen in all sports leagues. A sexual trois between 2 management personnel and a bellboy, a sexual relationship between a head coach and player on the same team is something that shouldn't happen and should've been rooted out when founded out, this instance found to be true should have a heavy lifetime ban penalty for all involve from the WNBA.
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pilight
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| Posted: 03/11/20 1:06 pm ::: |
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| Relationships between coaches and players have never resulted in bans before.
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mavcarter
#NATC
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| Posted: 03/11/20 1:08 pm ::: |
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On a somewhat unrelated note, don’t know if the WNBA commissioner is off to a great start in terms of getting ahead of issues.._________________
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| Or maybe said poster should quit being a nuisance when people don’t agree? |
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 03/11/20 1:38 pm ::: |
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| I'm confused ... wasn't she Agler's boss?
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 03/11/20 2:22 pm ::: |
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| Randy wrote: |
| Putting all that stuff in, whether relevant or not, . . . may also have been calculated to push the Sparks into a quick settlement. |
Agree.
Let me clarify a few other things.
Unless it's something fairly rare called a verified complaint, the plaintiff (Toler) is not swearing that the alleged facts are true and is not subject to perjury if they turn out not to be true. All the allegations are prefaced by the magic words "on information and belief", which is legalese for "maybe, could be, I think I heard something like it 10th hand". Second, plaintiff's lawyers often wildly exaggerate and make up allegations under the protection of the "on information and belief" disclaimer. In addition, lawyers are absolutely immune from libel and slander for things they say in court papers and court, even if false, so they are not shy about larding up legal complaints with as much flimsy sensationalism as possible to get maximum publicity and exert maximum settlement pressure.
It's really a disgraceful practice. |
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 03/11/20 2:51 pm ::: |
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| Yeah, the bit of the original article that feels to me like it's been glossed over is where it says "She's had discussions for the last few months with the team about getting the pay she feels she's owed and to clear her name, but they didn't go anywhere." To me that seems like she might've said "Pay me or I start saying all this stuff publically", and eventually they said no enough times for her to actually to go through with that. That doesn't necessarily mean any or all of it is true or untrue, but we definitely shouldn't just assume that everything she's saying actually happened. |
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 03/11/20 2:54 pm ::: |
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| WNBA 09 wrote: |
How would this fall under me too if it was consensual ? |
#MeToo is about broadening our understanding about what constitutes consent. As the Harvey Weinstein case has demonstrated, even "yes" doesn't always mean "yes" when the power balance between two people is so one sided.
A coach has such incredible power over a player with the ability to make or break a career that any sexual relationship is inherently imbalanced, no matter the willingness to be involved in it. So while we might have treated relationships in the past like titillating tabloid fodder, hopefully we understand it better now and react with the disgust it deserves.
The example I keep coming back to is the one I know the best: a professor being in a sexual relationship with an adult student or grad assistant. It's the same dynamic as the coach. The professor/student relationship would make any sexual relationship imbalanced, and makes any consent given murky at best. While the student's understanding about whether they freely consented or not is what would determine if any legal lines have been crossed and if it falls under the definition of sexual assault, no matter what they feel it is considered grossly unethical behavior and I know of no university in this way and age that would not fire a professor on the spot for it if it came to light.
| pilight wrote: |
| Relationships between coaches and players have never resulted in bans before |
Unfortunately, no. But the world had also changed and we have a much better understanding of these issues post Harvey Weinstein and #MeToo. Just because ignorant mistakes were made in the past, shouldn't condemn us to repeating them forever.
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