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six sense
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 Posted: 02/25/20 11:52 pm ::: |
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| I know we have quite a few Holmes from FL St Fan's here who would like to see us take her with our 13th pick, if small forward is the focus at that pick I would go for Odom from Duke think she has a higher up side that can be reached with what is suppose to be the new front office strength, which is suppose to be player devolepment! Kind of reminds me of Powell's from Washington
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six sense
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| Posted: 02/26/20 12:13 am ::: |
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| Sorry Powers
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root_thing
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| Posted: 02/26/20 1:16 am ::: |
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| myrtle wrote: |
| IMO Kaila Charles is a long way from ready to start at the pro level. Even against the better college teams she tends to struggle. In the games I've watched, she's been pretty erratic. She not only can't shoot threes, she can't shoot FTs either which doesn't give me a lot of confidence that the shot will suddenly improve. And her equal TOs to Assists also doesn't inspire much enthusiasm. There's a reason she's not in the discussion as a top draft pick. |
Yeah, it doesn't look to me like Kaila Charles can even reliably hit a mid-range jumper. As for 3-pointers, she's 10-45 for her entire career. Based on 1561 field goal attempts, that’s 2.9% of her shots. Or if you divide it by 131 games that’s .343 3pt attempts per game. I won't even bother with the percentage of makes. From what I’ve seen Kaila mostly scores off putbacks and fastbreak layups. That’s unlikely to be enough if she wants to play SF at the next level. What Charles does have going for her is that she is a good athlete and a solid defender. If you’re a defensive-oriented coach, that gives you something to start with.
| six sense wrote: |
| I know we have quite a few Holmes from FL St Fan's here who would like to see us take her with our 13th pick, if small forward is the focus at that pick I would go for Odom from Duke think she has a higher up side that can be reached with what is suppose to be the new front office strength, which is suppose to be player devolepment! Kind of reminds me of Powell's from Washington |
Joyner Holmes is a PF from Texas. The Florida State prospects are PF Gillespie, SG Woolfork, and PG Ekhomu.
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Richyyy
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| Posted: 02/26/20 1:30 am ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
| IMO Kaila Charles is a long way from ready to start at the pro level. Even against the better college teams she tends to struggle. In the games I've watched, she's been pretty erratic. She not only can't shoot threes, she can't shoot FTs either which doesn't give me a lot of confidence that the shot will suddenly improve. And her equal TOs to Assists also doesn't inspire much enthusiasm. There's a reason she's not in the discussion as a top draft pick. |
Yeah, it doesn't look to me like Kaila Charles can even reliably hit a mid-range jumper. As for 3-pointers, she's 10-45 for her entire career. Based on 1561 field goal attempts, that’s 2.9% of her shots. Or if you divide it by 131 games that’s .343 3pt attempts per game. I won't even bother with the percentage of makes. From what I’ve seen Kaila mostly scores off putbacks and fastbreak layups. That’s unlikely to be enough if she wants to play SF at the next level. What Charles does have going for her is that she is a good athlete and a solid defender. If you’re a defensive-oriented coach, that gives you something to start with. |
Does she have long arms? Jazmon Gwathmey just got signed for the umpteenth time and I'm yet to see any evidence that she can actually shoot. Some of these wing athletes get lots and lots of looks. |
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Stormeo
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| Posted: 02/26/20 1:36 am ::: |
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My whole Kaila Charles recommendation came from a defense angle and a fit angle. My thinking was, she wouldn't be expected to be a high-usage player on a team that would already have Ionescu and Nurse - more like "mid-usage", if that's a thing? She could focus the bulk of her efforts on defense & rebounding while hitting (well, at least taking) open mid-rangers on offense and crashing the glass; and she's a true perimeter player so SF is her only option if she won't be able to shoot. But she probably doesn't go to the Liberty unless it's at 13. Fwiw in my mock, I have her at about 7 or 8, and fwiw I still don't think that a Durr-for-K. Charles trade would be an uneven one. In that scenario, the Liberty would select a true backup PG at 13, but in this reality where Durr's still on this team, I like either Herbert-Harrigan or Gillespie at 13. I'm just not as high on either of those two like some are; I'd be surprised if both were first-round choices.
Sticking with real life: we're all assuming the Liberty will try to make an Ionescu-Durr-Nurse starting perimeter work, but ya have to wonder where Clarendon will fit in with this team. If the front office had envisioned Clarendon to come off the bench when they signed her/them, Boyd should've already been gone... it just wouldn't make sense to have both of them if neither start. Maybe they're waiting for the right move, who knows. If Clarendon and Ionescu start, Ionescu wouldn't have to be thrown into the fire at PG and would have a much easier transition; She could for example play PG against an opponent's second unit and face less talent/pressure while still learning to play it on the job.
What the Liberty really need to counteract any defensive deficiencies they may have on the perimeter is a legit rim protector. I'd like to see Kiah Stokes start over Amanda Zahui B. at center because I think if she's still got it, she'd be a better complement to the other starters on both sides of the ball than Zahui B. would.
So if nothing really changes with the roster between now and the regular season (which at best is still possible), I guess this is what I'd want to see at least in the beginning:
PG: Clarendon/Boyd
SG: Ionescu/Durr
SF: Nurse/Johannès/R. Allen
PF: T. Charles/either R. Gray or NRE but not both/#13
C: Stokes/Zahui B.
And if Han Xu shows, she can compete for a spot - I hope Hopkins/Tsai? wouldn't just hand her one if she didn't deserve it.
Last edited by Stormeo on 02/26/20 4:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bluedevilaztecfan5
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| Posted: 02/26/20 2:37 am ::: |
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| Stormeo wrote: |
My whole Kaila Charles recommendation came from a defense angle and a fit angle. She could focus the bulk of her efforts on defense & rebounding while hitting open mid-rangers on offense. But she probably doesn't go to the Liberty unless it's at 13. Fwiw in my mock, I have her at about 7 or 8, and fwiw I still don't think that a Durr-for-K. Charles trade would be an uneven one.
If the front office had envisioned Clarendon to come off the bench when they signed her/them, Boyd should've already been gone... it just wouldn't make sense to have both of them if neither start. Maybe they're waiting for the right move, who knows. If Clarendon and Ionescu start, Ionescu wouldn't have to be thrown into the fire at PG and would have a much easier transition; She could for example play PG against an opponent's second unit and face less talent/pressure while still learning to play it on the job.
What the Liberty really need to counteract any defensive deficiencies they may have on the perimeter is a legit rim protector. I'd like to see Kiah Stokes start over Amanda Zahui B. at center because I think if she's still got it, she'd be a better complement to the other starters on both sides of the ball than Zahui B. would.
So if nothing really changes with the roster between now and the regular season (which at best is still possible), I guess this is what I'd want to see at least in the beginning:
PG: Clarendon/Boyd
SG: Ionescu/Durr
SF: Nurse/Johannès/R. Allen
PF: T. Charles/either R. Gray or NRE but not both/#13
C: Stokes/Zahui B.
And if Han Xu shows, she can compete for a spot - I hope Hopkins/Tsai? wouldn't just hand her one if she didn't deserve it. |
To start the season I had Kaila just outside the lottery, now I see her as a late first rounder early second. I’m not opposed to picking her at 13, but I am not sure I agree with the value of a straight up trade for Durr.
I think Asia showed flashes of being a great scorer in this league. Kaila seems to be a wonderful athlete, but how is she different than someone like Kaela Davis or Kayla Thornton (different players in their own rights but great athletes nonetheless)?
thank you for acknowledging Layshia’s pronouns! I know you don’t know me, but it means a lot to me personally and on a more macro inclusive level.
I could be open to Clarendon/Ionescu/Nurse starting together, but right now prefer Durr. I totally see why it would help with the transition though.
I agree, it would be super helpful to have better more consistent and aware rim/paint protection to make up for the lack of perimeter defenders.
Imagine if we had the assets to trade for Fowles!
I love Han Xu’s scoring ability and potential, I think she earns her spot because Walt seems to be more offensive minded.
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Bob Lamm
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six sense
Joined: 12 Feb 2020
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| Posted: 02/26/20 4:12 am ::: |
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| Thanks for correcting school for me, yes I am referring to Holmes from Texas.The young lady from Fl St will be long gone before we get to pick in second round. Will be watching Odom for rest of season think she is a late bloomer
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root_thing
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| Posted: 02/26/20 10:11 am ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
| IMO Kaila Charles is a long way from ready to start at the pro level. Even against the better college teams she tends to struggle. In the games I've watched, she's been pretty erratic. She not only can't shoot threes, she can't shoot FTs either which doesn't give me a lot of confidence that the shot will suddenly improve. And her equal TOs to Assists also doesn't inspire much enthusiasm. There's a reason she's not in the discussion as a top draft pick. |
Yeah, it doesn't look to me like Kaila Charles can even reliably hit a mid-range jumper. As for 3-pointers, she's 10-45 for her entire career. Based on 1561 field goal attempts, that’s 2.9% of her shots. Or if you divide it by 131 games that’s .343 3pt attempts per game. I won't even bother with the percentage of makes. From what I’ve seen Kaila mostly scores off putbacks and fastbreak layups. That’s unlikely to be enough if she wants to play SF at the next level. What Charles does have going for her is that she is a good athlete and a solid defender. If you’re a defensive-oriented coach, that gives you something to start with. |
Does she have long arms? Jazmon Gwathmey just got signed for the umpteenth time and I'm yet to see any evidence that she can actually shoot. Some of these wing athletes get lots and lots of looks. |
Gwathmey had a good Olympics Qualifying Tournament, averaging 17 ppg on 45/46/83 shooting. She put up 30 points against Australia and singlehandedly kept Puerto Rico sort of hanging around in that game. It probably earned her another look in training camp.
Kaila Charles is a smooth-looking athlete, who despite being a questionable shooter has a 50% field goal percentage for her career. She’s usually under control. Where Kaila gets exposed is against good teams when Maryland is behind and she feels obligated to force the action. Then she takes more jump-shots and it usually doesn’t turn out well.
I’m okay with any number of players at #13. However, NY needs help in the post – especially if Tina wants out. Therefore, a PF like Holmes would be the best fit. Similar to Odom, Holmes is an underachiever but when she’s on she can look really impressive. This is where Hopkins, wearing his development hat, will get to show-off his stuff if all the hype is real.
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Shades
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| Posted: 02/26/20 10:52 am ::: |
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| bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote: |
To start the season I had Kaila just outside the lottery, now I see her as a late first rounder early second. I’m not opposed to picking her at 13.
I am not sure I agree with the value of a straight up trade for Durr. |
The Liberty loved Durr so much that they avoided taking franchise-changing McCowan with the #2 pick. Seems highly unlikely they’d turn around and trade her for a player most people rate as a low first round pick, except for maybe Megdal. He has her even lower.
| bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote: |
| I think Asia showed flashes of being a great scorer in this league. |
Were you seeing what the Liberty head coach saw in Johannes?
| bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote: |
| Kaila seems to be a wonderful athlete, but how is she different than someone like Kaela Davis or Kayla Thornton (different players in their own rights but great athletes nonetheless)? |
I see her more as a Kahleah Copper type. Would much rather drive to the hole than take a three point shot.
Thornton went undrafted in 2015 and had to play overseas a couple years before becoming WNBA-relevant. Hopefully KCharles won’t have to go the same route as Thornton. Thornton is Bibb’s greatest (and only) unknown FA find. But now Thornton is starter quality at the SF. If you were talking about Thornton starting at SF for the Liberty, that would make a lot more sense.
| bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote: |
| Imagine if we had the assets to trade for Fowles! |
Oh, but you do:
•#1 in 2020 (you won’t miss what you never had)
•Zahui or Johannes (you rate both as bench players so you won’t miss either)
•First round pick in 2021 (won’t miss until the 2021 draft party)
Small price to pay for Fowles. Bunch of stuff you won’t miss.
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bluedevilaztecfan5
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| Posted: 02/26/20 12:11 pm ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
| The Liberty loved Durr so much that they avoided taking franchise-changing McCowan with the #2 pick. Seems highly unlikely they’d turn around and trade her for a player most people rate as a low first round pick, except for maybe Megdal. He has her even lower. |
Indeed, and I see her as a better current player and prospect than Kaila.
| Shades wrote: |
| bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote: |
| I think Asia showed flashes of being a great scorer in this league. |
Were you seeing what the Liberty head coach saw in Johannes? |
I think they both showed their scoring prowess, and I feel lucky to have both on my team. Asia works so hard, and has that praise from past coaches. I see her being a consistent double digit scorer if healthy. And I can see Marine capable of the same.
| Shades wrote: |
| bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote: |
| Kaila seems to be a wonderful athlete, but how is she different than someone like Kaela Davis or Kayla Thornton (different players in their own rights but great athletes nonetheless)? |
I see her more as a Kahleah Copper type. Would much rather drive to the hole than take a three point shot.
Thornton went undrafted in 2015 and had to play overseas a couple years before becoming WNBA-relevant. Hopefully KCharles won’t have to go the same route as Thornton. Thornton is Bibb’s greatest (and only) unknown FA find. But now Thornton is starter quality at the SF. If you were talking about Thornton starting at SF for the Liberty, that would make a lot more sense. |
That’s really my point though, there’s many a tall athletic slasher type player. The ones who succeed and start are the ones who add an outside shot such as Thornton and Alysha Clark, and or are elite defenders. Can Charles do it? Perhaps, and I’m willing to risk 13 but not a trade of Asia.
| Shades wrote: |
| bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote: |
| Imagine if we had the assets to trade for Fowles! |
Oh, but you do:
•#1 in 2020 (you won’t miss what you never had)
•Zahui or Johannes (you rate both as bench players so you won’t miss either)
•First round pick in 2021 (won’t miss until the 2021 draft party)
Small price to pay for Fowles. Bunch of stuff you won’t miss. |
I will admit, I’ve thought about a trade. But if we were to trade, I wouldn’t want to give up #1 or Tina.
It would be tough to part with others, but I understand you have to give to get. However, Big Syl is 3 years older than Tina. Her #s dropped as well last season, though still very high FG% and rebounding, but shot blocking has been decreasing. I didn’t watch her enough to see if she’s on the decline at 34 years of age? Or playing without Maya really impacted her which makes sense.
I actually have Zahui as our starter, but see the value of Kiah starting due to better defensive awareness.
But it’s moot because FO seems content with youth movement.
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RavenDog
Joined: 19 Feb 2007
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| Posted: 02/26/20 12:22 pm ::: |
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| Entered in error.
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myrtle
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| Posted: 02/26/20 12:39 pm ::: |
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| Fowles may have two-three years left, but prime prime years are behind her. She's still very good, but yeah, the timeframe is limited.
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Shades
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| Posted: 02/26/20 12:44 pm ::: |
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| RavenDog wrote: |
| Shades wrote: |
Oh, but you do:
•#1 in 2020 (you won’t miss what you never had)
•Zahui or Johannes (you rate both as bench players so you won’t miss either)
•First round pick in 2021 (won’t miss until the 2021 draft party)
[/b[b]]Small price to pay for Fowles. Bunch of stuff you won’t miss. |
Shades: Put down the Kool Aid and check yourself into Rehab. You've come up with some doozie first round picks and trades over the years but this one tops them all. Two #1's and two bench players for a fading Fowles? |
Check yourself into a Vision Center. That was an OR not an AND. So only one bench player is involved. There’s also a difference between a #1 and a first rounder. So “Two first rounders” would have been more accurate. Are you drinking too much Kool Aid? I take pride in never drinking so those kind of jokes aren’t funny to me.
The person I was responding to showed an interest in trading for Fowles but they didn’t think they had the assets to do it. I was just pointing out they indeed had the assets necessary, and they didn’t even have to give up any of their current favorite players.
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ClayK
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| Posted: 02/26/20 3:04 pm ::: |
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>Check yourself into a Vision Center.
And the point of that comment?
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TotalCardinalMove
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 02/26/20 4:23 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
>Check yourself into a Vision Center.
And the point of that comment? |
More ugliness from Shades. Never ends.
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Bob Lamm
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bballjunkie
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Stormeo
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| Posted: 02/27/20 12:32 am ::: |
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| bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote: |
| To start the season I had Kaila just outside the lottery, now I see her as a late first rounder early second. I’m not opposed to picking her at 13, but I am not sure I agree with the value of a straight up trade for Durr. |
Looks like I'm on an island when it comes to K. Charles lol.  Maybe I have a little bit of Cr@ckhead Syndrome when it comes to her, but we shall see where she's picked and how she does this summer, won't we. 
| bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote: |
| I think Asia showed flashes of being a great scorer in this league. Kaila seems to be a wonderful athlete, but how is she different than someone like Kaela Davis or Kayla Thornton (different players in their own rights but great athletes nonetheless)? |
Mostly cuz she's younger. My thinking was, if Kolb were to trade Durr away, it would at least include a first-round pick for this draft, as well as possibly another player on their rookie contract depending on how much they valued the first-round pick/player they were targeting. It wouldn't be solely for a player older than Durr.
Davis + #15/21 for Boyd would be a good, realistic trade for both teams as well imo.
| bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote: |
| thank you for acknowledging Layshia’s pronouns! I know you don’t know me, but it means a lot to me personally and on a more macro inclusive level. |
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bluedevilaztecfan5
Joined: 16 Mar 2010
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| Posted: 02/27/20 1:42 am ::: |
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| Stormeo wrote: |
Looks like I'm on an island when it comes to K. Charles lol. Maybe I have a little bit of Cr@ckhead Syndrome when it comes to her, but we shall see where she's picked and how she does this summer, won't we.
Mostly cuz she's younger. My thinking was, if Kolb were to trade Durr away, it would at least include a first-round pick for this draft, as well as possibly another player on their rookie contract depending on how much they valued the first-round pick/player they were targeting. It wouldn't be solely for a player older than Durr.
Davis + #15/21 for Boyd would be a good, realistic trade for both teams as well imo.
| bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote: |
| thank you for acknowledging Layshia’s pronouns! I know you don’t know me, but it means a lot to me personally and on a more macro inclusive level. |
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I really hope Kaila does well! I’m on the ‘fan’ island of Kaila with you lol but just not the island that thinks she will turn into a better player than Asia. We shall see!
She’s an athlete and has potential to grow, if she can get that outside shot going I think she can be solid like Kayla Thornton.
Davis + pick for Boyd is interesting, but I think I’ll pass.
They both turn the hall over a lot, but Brittany gets more assists, rebounds, and steals in similar minutes.
I get the purpose for a defensive tall wing, but I will pass on Kaela.
I really hoped for Copper this offseason.
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ClayK
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| Posted: 02/27/20 10:43 am ::: |
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| bballjunkie wrote: |
Is this like you know, like middle school, like where the gang has to jump on and like go after 1 person, because like they can and like, don’t like it as they don’t always agree with them.  |
That's an interesting point, and a good one.
My take is that we are a community, and we should treat each other as members of the community -- and treat each other as we would like to be treated.
Shades is obviously an important member of the community, but he/she/they makes comments that, to me, seem to damage our sense of community and add rancor that doesn't need to be there.
So if I believe that, and I believe it's important for us to set and uphold community norms, should I let comments I believe are too negative go by without saying anything? Or should I risk appearing to be back in middle school when I call out behavior that seems inappropriate?
Clearly, after many years, I've made my choice to call Shades out when I think our community is damaged by his/her/they comments, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we should just the comments slide ... your thoughts?
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 02/27/20 11:05 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| bballjunkie wrote: |
| Is this like you know, like middle school, like where the gang has to jump on and like go after 1 person, because like they can and like, don’t like it as they don’t always agree with them. |
That's an interesting point, and a good one.
My take is that we are a community, and we should treat each other as members of the community -- and treat each other as we would like to be treated.
Shades is obviously an important member of the community, but he/she/they makes comments that, to me, seem to damage our sense of community and add rancor that doesn't need to be there.
So if I believe that, and I believe it's important for us to set and uphold community norms, should I let comments I believe are too negative go by without saying anything? Or should I risk appearing to be back in middle school when I call out behavior that seems inappropriate?
Clearly, after many years, I've made my choice to call Shades out when I think our community is damaged by his/her/they comments, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we should just the comments slide ... your thoughts? |
The issue isn't agreement and disagreement. The endless ugly remarks by Shades ("Check yourself into a Vision Center") are nasty putdowns that have nothing to do with differing views about basketball.
As for middle school, my memories of middle school are that ugly remarks were almost never challenged.
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RavenDog
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| Posted: 02/27/20 12:48 pm ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
I highly doubt that Clarendon was signed to be a starter, especially with the consequence being that Durr would be a bench player. My guess: the plan is to have Ionescu starting at point guard, backed up by Clarendon; Durr starting at shooting guard, backed up by Johannes; and Nurse starting at small forward, backed up by Allen.
Kolb and Hopkins may still be hoping to get rid of Boyd, as toad has recommended many, many times.  Or they may see no problem in having Clarendon as the backup point guard and Boyd as a 5th guard who doesn't play much. Someone has to be the 5th guard. |
I'm inclined to go along with your reasoning here. And, although it may or may not reach a positive fruition, NY does have the first option in the Waiver market.
In addition, Nurse can play PG too, as she does for Team Canada bringing into play a nonessential need for Boyd should NY look elsewhere.
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Bob Lamm
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