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The Coddling of the American Mind
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norwester



Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 6362
Location: Seattle


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PostPosted: 04/27/16 3:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
norwester wrote:


I feel like the majority of students shouldn't go to college. I mean, if someone wants to, ok, but I feel like "the system" is skewed to encourage those who just aren't suited for college to go to college anyway, which often leaves students and families in debt and with no prospects for the future.

I actually agree. However, if this is going to be the case I think businesses need to stop requiring college degrees for advancement or even to get I the door. If the degree is actually needed to have the requisite skills needed for the job, then fine. It makes sense that a lawyer should have a law degree, or a doctor a medical one.

But the vast majority of employers just want to see a degree in something. Whether or not it is applicable to the field or not is inconsequential. Someone applies for a job in HR. A degree in History? Sure, come on in! No degree at all? Sorry, out of luck! Up for a promotion. Can do everything required expertly. Sorry, College Grads only.

College has stopped being about giving people the skills needed for their jobs and instead become a way to classify people. This makes social mobility much more difficult since a vast majority of the higher paying jobs out there require a degree.

I totally agree. The college degree is the new high school diploma. It devalues college education (and overvalues it at the same time? Shocked ).

Anyway, I have a cousin who isn't too interested in college, and I keep trying to get him to go into elevator repair. Big bucks, man.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 04/27/16 5:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

A word popped into my head when reading norwester's thoughts. Artisanal. Artisanal trades. I'm not going to claim I made that one up... but we can't just train people to be mechanics. We also can't expect that putting people through the processes that lead to certified electricians and plumbers and licensed and bonded contractors and all that... isn't being completely offset by very skilled and experienced undocumented workers who present themselves to the industry as insular teams and who work for a fraction of the costs of using certified skilled workers.

So we almost can't have a good conversation until we change the landscape as it applies to trades for the American workers and that means the high school through college aged children of the people of this country. Things that are illegal must be curtailed. We're this close to electing a Donald Trump for president largely because of the volcano of anger that exists in America over this very issue. Anyway.

Look. I've said this before, here I go again. The answers to so many of our country's problems lie in understanding California and specifically Southern California, what works, what doesn't work, how and who WORKS, etc. Such a vast landscape of human beings. Incredibly prosperous and robust economy. Many many lessons to be learned here.

What do I mean by artisanal trade skills or even artisanal labor? Well, okay, I'm maybe misusing the word or stretching its meaning. But let me give you an example. So how do you supplant the college dream with jobs and lifestyle that STILL provide pride and a sense of creative accomplishment to those who do whatever work they're doing. Well, first, you could go back to taking some of those jobs off of illegals who work for nothing and give them back, with the status and pay they used to command, to certified legal skilled workers. But I already said something like that.

Anyway. Here is like an LA type of story. So a couple of rich kids (and I mean rich) from the Westside who grew up around the garment industry decide they want to create yet another boutique blue jean company. So they go down to the garment district, which they know so well from their years of going to work with dad or grandpa who owned the shirt manufacturing company, they rent a space and bring in the washing machines and other equipment for sewing and distressing their jeans, all things they are uniquely familiar with in ways that you or I couldn't dream of being because our parents weren't garment moguls.

But then they throw out, by whatever mechanism they know, the net for employees who will create their jeans from their designs and plans. Sew, distress, dye if needed, finish etc. These employees will be young, often kind of hip, 100% Latino, from the neighborhoods in east LA that border the garment district, etc. They will come to work in the California sunshine on bikes and skateboards. They will know the owners personally and take pride in the cool products they are helping to create. They will be paid shit. And that's important because that's why this all works the way it does.

Because California, the prosperity and opportunity out here, rides on one thing more than anything else and that is the availability of cheap happy labor that is very local to the needs of whatever industry requires it.

But those people also have cheap rents and are very well acclimated in their communities to making it on low wages. They are, as I said, close to their workplaces. They are happy people and they should be. They enjoy an employment environment that perfectly utilizes their availability and talents and desire to work and work hard.

There is NO place for the white working class here. Couldn't live local there. Don't ask me why. No place for African American working class. Don't ask me why.

So there's a LOT of caveats to be avoided in trying to transfer the robust thriving economy that exists in Southern California to the rest of the nation. But the point here is kind of hidden, I admit, in this other stuff. And you want to try to transfer the concept that people HAVE jobs that give them creative opportunities and pride in being a part of creating something beautiful and successful.

There are many different areas of work that allow people to have skills and a trades that do that, things that are creative and give them the kind of pride in themselves that we associate with (or should) those who have a profession based on higher education. But you're never going to get there unless you make things right in terms of enforcing laws that are really designed to protect workers from something that operates like a scab workplace economy.

So yeah, we have to stop this talk that a college education is now as essential as a high school diploma was 50 years ago. That concept as a practical reality has collapsed. We need to know and understand that and also start figuring out how to create a class of young people who aren't going to college but still have pride and creativity etc. in whatever area they work in.

Anyway. I don't even want to reread this one. Embarassed



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pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 59969
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PostPosted: 06/30/16 11:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Spoiled College Grad Demands New Dress Code at Job, Gets the Boot

http://www.askamanager.org/2016/06/i-was-fired-from-my-internship-for-writing-a-proposal-for-a-more-flexible-dress-code.html

Quote:
The next day, all of us who signed the petition were called into a meeting where we thought our proposal would be discussed. Instead, we were informed that due to our unprofessional behavior, we were being let go from our internships. We were told to hand in our ID badges and to gather our things and leave the property ASAP.



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StevenHW



Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: 06/30/16 7:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

norwester wrote:
This post probably doesn't belong here, because it's not about PC vs non-PC, and how we are or are not exposed to ideas that are different than our own. But I do feel like it is an offshoot in the "not everyone gets a medal for participation" world.

Most High School Seniors Aren't College Or Career Ready, Says 'Nation's Report Card'

I feel like the majority of students shouldn't go to college. I mean, if someone wants to, ok, but I feel like "the system" is skewed to encourage those who just aren't suited for college to go to college anyway, which often leaves students and families in debt and with no prospects for the future. I feel like high schools should emphasize trades more, and also design curriculums so that it's not a once-size-fits-all-take-these-classes-to-get-into-college type of deal. For instance, to go to a Utah state college (an example I use because I grew up in Utah) you need to have taken a certain number of foreign language courses. But what if I'm a student that has no intention of going to college? Pretty much everyone I knew had to take Spanish or French in middle school. What if they took a communication course? What if instead of pre-algebra, they took basic household accounting or something?

Why do we even have schools? Am I getting too existential?

Anyway, I don't think it's too alarming a statistic that 60% of students are not college or career ready, mostly because 60% of students probably shouldn't go to college, and we don't teach people actual life skills as a matter of course. Sounds like a pretty expected result, if you ask me.

My new soapbox about education: school districts funded by their own property taxes versus distributing them across a system. I.e. a "rich school" provides a much better quality of education than a poor school, and the rich school can provide all sorts of extra curriculars and perks while a poor school may not even have the basics like a roof that doesn't leak! But that's for a different thread, I guess.


Your post reminded me of an article about the idea of taking a "gap year", right after high school and before going to college.

But it also reminded me of some online articles by people who think that a college education and degree are overrated, since most (though not all) jobs do not necessarily require a college degree, unless you want to become a doctor, a scientist, or a lawyer, or a judge. Ironically, some of those articles were written by people who have college degrees.

Nomadic Matt's "Why You Should Skip School And Travel The World":
http://www.nomadicmatt.com/travel-blogs/skip-school-and-travel/

Matt Walsh's "It's Time To Boycott College":
http://themattwalshblog.com/2014/10/15/fellow-americans-time-boycott-college/



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pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 59969
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PostPosted: 08/25/16 10:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

University to Freshmen: Don't Expect Safe Spaces or Trigger Warnings

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:pcTnUxEaef8J:https://chicagomaroon.com/2016/08/24/university-to-freshmen-dont-expect-safe-spaces-or-trigger-warnings/+&cd=11&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Quote:
"Our commitment to academic freedom means that we do not support so-called 'trigger warnings,' we do not cancel invited speakers because their topics might prove controversial, and we do not condone the creation of intellectual 'safe spaces' where individuals can retreat from ideas and perspectives at odds with their own," reads the letter from Dean of Students Jay Ellison.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 09/26/16 5:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hofstra University Provides 'Trigger Warning' for Presidential Debate

http://www.mrctv.org/blog/hofstra-university-provides-trigger-warning-presidential-debate




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justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: 09/26/16 6:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

See I have no problem with posting trigger warnings when a potentially intense subject is going to be (or potentially be) discussed. I have them in the syllabus I give to my students at the beginning of the semester. It just seems polite and conscientious towards people who may be suffering from things like PTSD or are otherwise sensitive to such subjects.

The problem comes when someone wants to shut down a legitimate conversation because they disagree with the subject matter.



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mercfan3



Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 09/26/16 6:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
See I have no problem with posting trigger warnings when a potentially intense subject is going to be (or potentially be) discussed. I have them in the syllabus I give to my students at the beginning of the semester. It just seems polite and conscientious towards people who may be suffering from things like PTSD or are otherwise sensitive to such subjects.

The problem comes when someone wants to shut down a legitimate conversation because they disagree with the subject matter.


Agree completely.

There are people in this world who have been brutally raped and have ptsd. Why is it a problem to be considerate and let people know up front? Why is it bad to be considerate in general? (It's not..)

It's shutting down conversations that are the problem. But warning people is not a problem. It's no different than warning people about flashing lights when they are prone to seizures. It doesn't mean you have to stop the light show, it's just people should know up front..



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PrideFan



Joined: 28 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: 09/27/16 10:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Hofstra University Provides 'Trigger Warning' for Presidential Debate

http://www.mrctv.org/blog/hofstra-university-provides-trigger-warning-presidential-debate



Hofstra alum/ fan here. Just FYI, the media and everyone tweeting that picture took it out of context. That sign was put for a separate event that MTV was hosting in the student center, which is not even in the same area of caplmpis as the basketball arena that hosted the debate. There was no trigger warning for the debate. It was blown way out of proportion. http://www.mediaite.com/online/no-hofstra-university-did-not-put-out-a-trigger-warning-for-the-debate/


pilight



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PostPosted: 06/25/17 11:21 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

College defends firing professor after Fox News appearance

http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2017/06/college_defends_firing_professor_after_fox_news_ap.html

Quote:
Munroe said in the statement.

"I fully believe that institutions of higher learning must provide a safe space for students... The character of this institution mandates that we embrace diversity, inclusion, and unity. Racism cannot be fought with more racism."



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tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 06/25/17 1:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
College defends firing professor after Fox News appearance

http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2017/06/college_defends_firing_professor_after_fox_news_ap.html

Quote:
Munroe said in the statement.

"I fully believe that institutions of higher learning must provide a safe space for students... The character of this institution mandates that we embrace diversity, inclusion, and unity. Racism cannot be fought with more racism."


I suppose the college can fire her for a wide range of reasons. I think in many states the reason only has to be "we liked another person better". But I would like to see a lawyer take her case for a "payment as part of settlement if we win" terms as I don't think she should have been fired for that interview.. But when I think about it, white people holding a private white only event would cause a much bigger outcry and maybe be deemed illegal in some way.

If colleges want to really embrace unity, they should reject diversity. Getting real specialized in your demographics will get the most unity of opinion.


justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 7874
Location: Northfield, MN


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PostPosted: 06/25/17 2:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
But when I think about it, white people holding a private white only event would cause a much bigger outcry and probably be deemed illegal in some way.


As it should....

When the scales are unbalanced you don't achieve equilibrium by stacking more on the side that is already weighted. It's the same reason you can have a UNCF, but a United White Person College Fund would be disgusting.

But I find the school's position ironic, since she was basically arguing that she wanted the BLM event to be a "safe space" where they could enjoy themselves without having to deal with detractors and counter-protesters. Yet they fired her in the interest of the school being a "safe place".



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Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: 06/25/17 8:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
It's the same reason you can have a UNCF, but a United White Person College Fund would be disgusting.


Shocked Hmmm. Anymore, I'm thinking UNCF, as a title and cause, is a bit dated. Maybe it should be UPPCF (United Poor Person's College Fund). Cuz there's a LOTTA whites, browns, reds, etc., that could use help with college funds.....not just "Negroes".



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 3:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

To the surprise of no one, this issue is not in the sole domain of the left. The right also wants to keep people it finds objectionable from college campuses.

With Chelsea Manning Invitation, Harvard Got a Discussion It Didn’t Want

Quote:
The invitation set off an uproar, with many people complaining that Ms. Manning was a traitor to the country and should not be honored with a Harvard fellowship. Just after midnight Friday, the Kennedy School dean rescinded Ms. Manning’s fellowship, prompting another round of complaints by others who saw a vaunted institution buckling under political pressure.



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 4:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
To the surprise of no one, this issue is not in the sole domain of the left. The right also wants to keep people it finds objectionable from college campuses.

With Chelsea Manning Invitation, Harvard Got a Discussion It Didn’t Want

Quote:
The invitation set off an uproar, with many people complaining that Ms. Manning was a traitor to the country and should not be honored with a Harvard fellowship. Just after midnight Friday, the Kennedy School dean rescinded Ms. Manning’s fellowship, prompting another round of complaints by others who saw a vaunted institution buckling under political pressure.


I don't see an accused criminal and military traitor being a right or left issue. It's a right or wrong issue.
justintyme



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 11:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
justintyme wrote:
To the surprise of no one, this issue is not in the sole domain of the left. The right also wants to keep people it finds objectionable from college campuses.

With Chelsea Manning Invitation, Harvard Got a Discussion It Didn’t Want

Quote:
The invitation set off an uproar, with many people complaining that Ms. Manning was a traitor to the country and should not be honored with a Harvard fellowship. Just after midnight Friday, the Kennedy School dean rescinded Ms. Manning’s fellowship, prompting another round of complaints by others who saw a vaunted institution buckling under political pressure.


I don't see an accused criminal and military traitor being a right or left issue. It's a right or wrong issue.

She is also a hero to many people in the US. I have major issues with what she did, but there is a legitimate and interesting discussion there and she could offer significant insight to students, which is why she was offered the position in the first place. That she is a criminal doesn't change that. Plus, "right" and "wrong" are not so black and white, as Game of Thrones fans should appreciate. Wink

She did her time, paid her price. Now is the time for the deeper discussions instead of pretending that a sizeable portion of the US doesn't hold those views and love her for what she did.



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 09/17/17 2:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:

She did her time, paid her price.


As of January 2017, "she" -- who applied as a male with male pronouns for a Presidential pardon in 2013 -- had not had any sexual reassignment surgery and claimed the Army had spent less than $600 on hormone therapy.

Paid her price? Manning was convicted in 2013 on 17 of 22 charges, including five counts of espionage and theft. Manning's crimes were eligible for 90 years of sentencing, but the judge gave 35 years.

Four years later, Obama, leaving the White House, commuted Manning's sentence.

With one year of community college, which he failed, Manning was given a "fellowship" to Harvard!!! -- the first LBGQT fellowship ever awarded and probably the first awarded to someone with no higher education. This was done by Bill Dellahunt, a long-time Massachusetts Democrat politician.

Michael Morrell, the Director and Deputy Director of the CIA under Democrat President Obama, resigned from Harvard in protest, writing: ""I cannot be part of an organization—The Kennedy School—that honors a convicted felon and leaker of classified information … the Kennedy School's decision will assist Ms. Manning in her long-standing effort to legitimize the criminal path that she took to prominence, an attempt that may encourage others to leak classified information as well."

CIA Director Mike Pompeo refused an invitation to speak at Harvard for similar reasons.

Finally an adult at Harvard, Dean Elmendorf, who served in various economic posts under Democrat President Clinton, revoked the fellowship, saying: "We did not intend to honor her in any way, . . . or to endorse any of her words or deeds…. However, I now think that designating Chelsea Manning as a Visiting Fellow was a mistake, for which I accept responsibility. … Therefore, we are withdrawing the invitation to her to serve as a Visiting Fellow—and the perceived honor that it implies to some people . . . . I apologize to her and to the many concerned people from whom I have heard today for not recognizing upfront the full implications of our original invitation."

Anyone who considers Multiple Felon Manning to be a hero has some whacky sense of basic morals, criminal justice, and national allegiance.
Howee



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PostPosted: 09/17/17 7:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Anyone who considers Multiple Felon Manning to be a hero has some whacky sense of basic morals, criminal justice, and national allegiance.

I'd categorize those people to be precisely the same as the ones who find Donald Trump to be deserving of the title of POTUS. He was simply too rich to be convicted of his felonies. His Russian ties might finally prove what a treacherously treasonous dick he is, who knows?

And at least Chelsea DID provide some military service to her country. Wink



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pilight



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PostPosted: 11/12/19 4:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Daily Northwestern will no longer fully report on campus events if the reporting runs the risk of making marginalized students feel unsafe or upset.

https://dailynorthwestern.com/2019/11/10/lateststories/addressing-the-dailys-coverage-of-sessions-protests/

Quote:
One area of our reporting that harmed many students was our photo coverage of the event. Some protesters found photos posted to reporters' Twitter accounts retraumatizing and invasive. Those photos have since been taken down.


The pictures in question were of students publicly protesting Sessions' speech. What traumatized them was apparently their own protest.



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Youth Coach



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PostPosted: 11/12/19 6:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
The Daily Northwestern will no longer fully report on campus events if the reporting runs the risk of making marginalized students feel unsafe or upset.

https://dailynorthwestern.com/2019/11/10/lateststories/addressing-the-dailys-coverage-of-sessions-protests/

Quote:
One area of our reporting that harmed many students was our photo coverage of the event. Some protesters found photos posted to reporters' Twitter accounts retraumatizing and invasive. Those photos have since been taken down.


The pictures in question were of students publicly protesting Sessions' speech. What traumatized them was apparently their own protest.


I read this and just shook my head in utter disgust.
cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 11/14/19 7:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Want to see coddled minds in America? Watch the FOX NEWS watchers.



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Howee



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PostPosted: 11/14/19 10:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
Want to see coddled minds in America? Watch the FOX NEWS watchers.

Nooo....you've got your adjectives confused: it's addled, not coddled. Laughing



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