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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 10/24/19 5:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
I like Tolo. She has shown an ability to defend bigger players, and she's serviceable on the offensive end. I don't remember LA ever releasing her, and I'm not sure if there is a time limit on reserving. It will be five years since Tolo last played for LA. If Marianna is available (and healthy), she'd be a good fit. Tolo recruited Nurse to play with Canberra, so maybe Kia can recruit Marianna to play in New York.

There isn't a time limit, as far as I know - I believe Connecticut still own Torrens's rights, for example - but there's a limit on how many players a team is allowed to hold on to. So you can't just draft a couple of foreigners every year and hold on to the draft rights for all of them forever.

Problem is that they don't always tell us when a team lets rights lapse. I don't remember Tolo ever showing up on a free agent list, so I would guess that LA still own her rights, but I wouldn't put much money on it. She also seems to keep getting hurt.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 10/24/19 11:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Now I am not totally advocating this but,

getting McCoughtry for nothing would be a very good idea if you're moving into a new arena and want more star power, let's say you sign her for 2 years a NY team adding Ionescu and McCoughtry (and possible veteran free role playing Center) could be as much of a contending Liberty team than we have had in years. The Charles window is closing if Tsai or the GM wants a decent playoff team for the next few years to christen the new arena they will definitely consider Angel.

Ionescu/Johannes/#13 (Harris, Dean or whatever back up-back up PG is available) or L. Allen if she gets waived
Nurse/Durr
McCoughtry/R. Allen
Charles/Zahui B/Gray
Stokes/FA center

That is a very legit team for 2020
add in another 1st round pick in 2021 and a two years improved Han Xu or other free agents

(that is enough of a legit team I would do a a trade for McCoughtry, I would probably start with Hartley, Stokes or Boyd and 2021 1st round pick (If Ionescu/Nurse/McCoughtry/Charles and center X can't make the playoffs in 2020 than we deserve to lose a lottery pick) and might be willing to go up to Durr and 2nd round pick).

I am all for internal growth but I can see management going the way above definitely if Angel comes without giving up any assets, and probably if they can get away with the trade not including our top assets, 2021 pick would be risky but I could see management taking the risk that adding Ionescu and Angel would be enough to not have that pick be too valuable.


root_thing



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PostPosted: 10/25/19 12:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Again, we don't know for sure what's happening with McCoughtry. However, if she really does become an unrestricted free agent, then every team in the league should be looking at her. Riskless opportunities to acquire a star player almost never happen. Yes, the new CBA can alter that, but do we really expect drastic changes? Can you really count on another star player being available and unencumbered two years from now? Given the chance, you have to pounce. Worst case scenario, McCoughtry can't play anymore and you tie up a max salary for a couple of years (I would not guarantee 3). With a young Liberty team, NY has the cap space to do it. Best case scenario, you get Angel McCoughtry! Let's say the most likely scenario is something in-between where Angel is good for 20-25 minutes per game. You can plan around that. Put Angel on a minutes limit (NY already did that with Wright under Laimbeer), then ration her playing time so that she's available at crucial moments. She can be the basketball equivalent of a closer.



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PostPosted: 10/27/19 7:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Lisa C. Willis, who played for the Liberty for two seasons, has been hired by the Knicks as an assistant coach for the Westchester Knicks, their G league team. This is the first time the Knicks have hired a woman as a coach:

https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/knicks-make-franchise-history-by-hiring-lisa-c-willis-as-g-league-assistant-coach/311301330


Happycappie25



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PostPosted: 10/27/19 7:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Lisa C. Willis, who played for the Liberty for two seasons, has been hired by the Knicks as an assistant coach for the Westchester Knicks, their G league team. This is the first time the Knicks have hired a woman as a coach:

https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/knicks-make-franchise-history-by-hiring-lisa-c-willis-as-g-league-assistant-coach/311301330


Loved Willis great to see



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toad455



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PostPosted: 10/27/19 8:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Happycappie25 wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
Lisa C. Willis, who played for the Liberty for two seasons, has been hired by the Knicks as an assistant coach for the Westchester Knicks, their G league team. This is the first time the Knicks have hired a woman as a coach:

https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/knicks-make-franchise-history-by-hiring-lisa-c-willis-as-g-league-assistant-coach/311301330


Loved Willis great to see


Good for her. Sucks the team plays in Westchester.



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Lib Fan



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PostPosted: 10/29/19 10:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Happycappie25 wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
Lisa C. Willis, who played for the Liberty for two seasons, has been hired by the Knicks as an assistant coach for the Westchester Knicks, their G league team. This is the first time the Knicks have hired a woman as a coach:

https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/knicks-make-franchise-history-by-hiring-lisa-c-willis-as-g-league-assistant-coach/311301330


Loved Willis great to see


Good for her. Sucks the team plays in Westchester.


I do remember Lisa Willis being a great 3 point shooter, not much defense

As far as WCC...OMG who would go to a game there ?
Oh wait,what are all these used Metro North White Plains Tickets ?

Happy that all I have to use next year is my Metro Card !



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SDHoops



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PostPosted: 10/29/19 10:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Becky Eggs Hammon Cheese.....get there!


Happycappie25



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PostPosted: 10/29/19 10:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Lol!!!!!

Lib Fan wrote:
toad455 wrote:
Happycappie25 wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
Lisa C. Willis, who played for the Liberty for two seasons, has been hired by the Knicks as an assistant coach for the Westchester Knicks, their G league team. This is the first time the Knicks have hired a woman as a coach:

https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/knicks-make-franchise-history-by-hiring-lisa-c-willis-as-g-league-assistant-coach/311301330


Loved Willis great to see


Good for her. Sucks the team plays in Westchester.


I do remember Lisa Willis being a great 3 point shooter, not much defense

As far as WCC...OMG who would go to a game there ?
Oh wait,what are all these used Metro North White Plains Tickets ?

Happy that all I have to use next year is my Metro Card !



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 11/09/19 8:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Eager to see Ionescu play tonight vs. Team USA. I don't think there's any debate about her being the top pick, especially for a team like NY who is in desperate need of a PG. A strong performance against WNBA competition might solidify that even in the eyes of naysayers.

I've also noted in the past that when Bird and Taurasi were drafted, their teams improved by 6-7 games in the standings the following season. I'd strongly assert that the Liberty should be expected at minimum to do the same. What's interesting is unlike most other teams with a #1 overall pick, you would only have to solidify one position elsewhere. A position in need of mobility and defense above all else. As I've also said earlier, that's a big no to Dolson. We need a player who takes defense and rebounding responsibilities away from Tina somewhat rather than adding to them.

Hopefully Stokes will help. But if she doesn't I think your definitive number one target should be someone like Elizabeth Williams. If that type of player is not available, then you go for the next best thing and try for one of LA's extra posts. While not dominant defensively, either would still be a big difference from Dolson.

If that's not avail, then try for IMS. Ideally I see IMS as a THIRD defensive type of post rather than right off the bench. She's inconsistent and has already been on several teams without making her mark. I wouldn't view her as impactful in a larger role, but more as a change of pace who can handle size matchups when she's on.

I'm not in the Angel camp. The way I see it, you're not just looking at 2020. You're looking at the next ten years. A player like Nurse tends to fill out over time. Eventually, that should enable her to handle the small forward position in terms of size. I'm not looking to do anything that will take away from the development of Nurse or Durr or Johannes (Kolb expects her to play this year according to HPH). I also don't think Angel will accept anything that places her in a supporting role. Coming off a major injury likely to affect her speed, let all that be someone else's headache. Give me a young core of Ionescu, Durr and Nurse and get out of the way and let them develop. Let Ionescu be the leader of that group and watch as they improve. Minimize Tina's workload and support her with some type of complement in the post be it size and/or mobility. And that's it. Hopefully that plus good coaching moves us forward. If we could win over 20 games with 2017's roster, I'd certainly think this one should be in that area with good coaching.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 11/09/19 12:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:


I'm not in the Angel camp. The way I see it, you're not just looking at 2020. You're looking at the next ten years. A player like Nurse tends to fill out over time. Eventually, that should enable her to handle the small forward position in terms of size. I'm not looking to do anything that will take away from the development of Nurse or Durr or Johannes (Kolb expects her to play this year according to HPH). I also don't think Angel will accept anything that places her in a supporting role. Coming off a major injury likely to affect her speed, let all that be someone else's headache. Give me a young core of Ionescu, Durr and Nurse and get out of the way and let them develop. Let Ionescu be the leader of that group and watch as they improve. Minimize Tina's workload and support her with some type of complement in the post be it size and/or mobility. And that's it. Hopefully that plus good coaching moves us forward. If we could win over 20 games with 2017's roster, I'd certainly think this one should be in that area with good coaching.


I agree. I posted about this a while back. The one issue you didn't address--that no one who advocated for Angel addressed--was this. Does anyone think that the Liberty can be a genuine championship contender in 2020? If your answer is "yes," then the argument for Angel becomes stronger. I say "no" to that question. Therefore, as you have well stated, I want the team to focus in 2020 on the development of Ionescu, Durr, and Nurse. (And, if she's on the roster, on Johannes.) The presence of Angel could hinder their development.

Going from 10-24 to 20-14 would, in my view, be terrific. That's a big jump in one season. And then we'd certainly have good reason to consider the Liberty as a genuine championship contender for 2021.


root_thing



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PostPosted: 11/09/19 1:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Eager to see Ionescu play tonight vs. Team USA. I don't think there's any debate about her being the top pick, especially for a team like NY who is in desperate need of a PG. A strong performance against WNBA competition might solidify that even in the eyes of naysayers.

I've also noted in the past that when Bird and Taurasi were drafted, their teams improved by 6-7 games in the standings the following season. I'd strongly assert that the Liberty should be expected at minimum to do the same. What's interesting is unlike most other teams with a #1 overall pick, you would only have to solidify one position elsewhere. A position in need of mobility and defense above all else. As I've also said earlier, that's a big no to Dolson. We need a player who takes defense and rebounding responsibilities away from Tina somewhat rather than adding to them.

Hopefully Stokes will help. But if she doesn't I think your definitive number one target should be someone like Elizabeth Williams. If that type of player is not available, then you go for the next best thing and try for one of LA's extra posts. While not dominant defensively, either would still be a big difference from Dolson.

If that's not avail, then try for IMS. Ideally I see IMS as a THIRD defensive type of post rather than right off the bench. She's inconsistent and has already been on several teams without making her mark. I wouldn't view her as impactful in a larger role, but more as a change of pace who can handle size matchups when she's on.

I'm not in the Angel camp. The way I see it, you're not just looking at 2020. You're looking at the next ten years. A player like Nurse tends to fill out over time. Eventually, that should enable her to handle the small forward position in terms of size. I'm not looking to do anything that will take away from the development of Nurse or Durr or Johannes (Kolb expects her to play this year according to HPH). I also don't think Angel will accept anything that places her in a supporting role. Coming off a major injury likely to affect her speed, let all that be someone else's headache. Give me a young core of Ionescu, Durr and Nurse and get out of the way and let them develop. Let Ionescu be the leader of that group and watch as they improve. Minimize Tina's workload and support her with some type of complement in the post be it size and/or mobility. And that's it. Hopefully that plus good coaching moves us forward. If we could win over 20 games with 2017's roster, I'd certainly think this one should be in that area with good coaching.


Well, I hope you're right, but the Liberty were horrible on defense this year. Plugging the hole in the middle will help, but you also need the rest of the defense to function properly. It's all about team defense. That's why the 2017 Liberty could win games despite being iffy on offense. As for McCoughtry, I view it as a low risk, high reward move if she can be signed as a UFA with only two years guaranteed. NY has the salary cap room. Worst case scenario, if Angel plays poorly or is disruptive, you can always release her. To me, ignoring McCoughtry is like looking a gift horse in the mouth. I also remember years ago, someone proposed an Essence Carson and Tiffany Jackson trade for aging Tina Thompson. Liberty fans (including me) scoffed at the idea. Well, Thompson went on to have a few more great years while Carson and Jackson -- partly due to injuries -- never became the players we expected. So yes, I like our young players, but there are no guarantees they will develop. We've already seen some surprising passivity from Durr. Remember how optimistic we were about Boyd, Stokes, Zahui, and Allen back in 2016? I know our current young players arrive with better credentials, but we still shouldn't be overly confident. And as I've argued in the past, too many of our players look like natural 2-guards.

As for Ionescu, I hope she plays well tonight but people need to watch her overall game -- not just the points. That goes for Sabally and Hebard too. Anyone can have a bad shooting night. I'm no big fan of Destiny Slocum, but in fairness to her, on Monday she had three 3's go in-and-out or rim out. Had they gone in, 7-14/5-9 24 pts would have looked a lot better than 4-14/2-9 15 pts. Then I bet the discussion about Slocum would have been different. But of course, that wouldn't change the way she played defense or her decision-making. Similarly, with Chennady Carter, if she had a bad shooting night people on this board might have killed her. Instead, she shot really well. Regardless, anyone paying attention would have seen Carter's superior athletic ability and off-the-driblle skills. You'd realize that Chennady has great offensive potential no matter how she shot that particular night.

So tonight, I'm going to watch how well Ionescu matches up physically. Is she strong enough? Quick enough? We know Sabrina is a great passer with superior vision, but what about her handle? I've seen her get rattled at times when pressured. It's important to remember that Ionescu has never been the full-time point guard for Oregon (Cazorla mostly brought the ball upcourt), and she won't be this year with Minyon Moore on board. Moore is not the self-effacing player that Cazorla was -- she's used to being a star. So, that will be an interesting dynamic to watch. We may not even see Sabrina functioning as a PG very much tonight. However, overall I think Ionescu will be fine. She has been to Team USA training camp with most of these players, so she knows what to expect. And frankly, five of the Team USA guards are coming off missing the season or playing very few games. They are still working off rust, and a lot of them weren't such great defenders to begin with (something to remember with Carter's performance). So good game or bad game, this one match should supplement but not determine one's judgement of Ionescu... or for that matter Sabally or Hebard.



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PostPosted: 11/09/19 1:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I agree. Unless a team wants to tank (or has Maya Moore, Bonner, DD, or the like), they should be interested in Angel as a UFA (probably even the Dream.) If Sabally and Carter come out doesn't seem there is anyone in the 2021 draft worth tanking for.



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PostPosted: 11/09/19 2:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hoping a new coach will improve the team defensive scheme. Nurse has tools to be a plus defender. Durr has tools to he more than adequate and I think Ionescu’s ability to know who, where and when to defend people will really take people by surprise. Kiah was in my estimation at least 50% of the defensive equation anyway. Anytime she was healthy and/or in shape, the team was defensively well above average. When she wasn’t....

I don’t think Durr or Nurse are relevant to what we’ve had before. Nurse is already an all-star and Durr is top-5 at creating her own shot. Sure, injuries could be a factor. But they could be with Angel as well. I get the need for a SF, but just her presence would be a downside to the development of other players. Plus she’s an injury risk herself.

Besides that, Ionescu is already type A. She and Tina need to be the leaders without anyone else getting in the way.



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PostPosted: 11/09/19 4:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I will raise this question one final time. Do people think the Liberty can be a genuine championship contender in 2020 with Angel? (Or without Angel?) My answers are "no" and "no." And that's why I want the 2020 priority to be developing Ionescu, Durr, Nurse, and (I'm hoping) Johannes.


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PostPosted: 11/09/19 4:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If Angel is 100%, she makes any team a championship contender



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PostPosted: 11/09/19 6:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If Angel doesn't get cored and can sign anywhere, this moved Nurse to the bench. Johannes, if she shows, backs-up Durr. Hartley stays as the veteran guard (replacing Wright). Sign Lindsey Allen as back up PG.

PG: Ionescu/LAllen
SG: Durr/Johannes/Hartley
SF: McCoughtry/Nurse
PF: Charles/Gray/#13 pick
C: Zahui B/Stokes



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PostPosted: 11/09/19 7:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think the Dream and Angel will ultimately kiss and make up, but if not, the Sparks or the Sun make the most sense for a player hungry for a 'ship.



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PostPosted: 11/09/19 8:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

At this point I’m betting McCoughtry to Indiana, if she doesn’t stay at ATL.



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PostPosted: 11/09/19 8:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Why Indiana? They have Vivians already.



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PostPosted: 11/09/19 9:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
Why Indiana? They have Vivians already.


You’re really comparing Vivians to McCoughtry?



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 11/09/19 9:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
I will raise this question one final time. Do people think the Liberty can be a genuine championship contender in 2020 with Angel? (Or without Angel?) My answers are "no" and "no." And that's why I want the 2020 priority to be developing Ionescu, Durr, Nurse, and (I'm hoping) Johannes.


NY wouldn't be the favorites, but if they're a .500 team without Angel, then they could be a 20 win team with her. That's enough accomplishment to have a chance in my book. But then again, you didn't like the Liberty's chances even when they were winning 20+ games under Laimbeer. So, how would you decide that New York is ready? What is your indicator of the right time? Are you waiting for them to win 30 games?



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PostPosted: 11/09/19 9:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If there was any debate about who the number 1 pick was, I’d say it’s over. Forgetting the 30 and 7, I loved two things. Ionescu doesn’t need the ball in her hands for too long to do it. And the post interview where she mentioned holding Sabally to the highest standard. That’s the leadership we need. Her 30 came with her actually sacrificing potential shots.



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PostPosted: 11/09/19 10:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
NY wouldn't be the favorites, but if they're a .500 team without Angel, then they could be a 20 win team with her. That's enough accomplishment to have a chance in my book. But then again, you didn't like the Liberty's chances even when they were winning 20+ games under Laimbeer. So, how would you decide that New York is ready? What is your indicator of the right time? Are you waiting for them to win 30 games?


LOL. For anyone who doesn't remember this, root_thing has an excellent memory. It's absolutely true: I didn't consider the best Liberty teams in the Laimbeer years to be genuine championship contenders. I thought they were very good teams that had virtually no chance of winning a WNBA championship. I said so right here on this board.

Was I wrong? Did any of Laimbeer's Liberty teams win a WNBA title? Did they get to the finals? Or did they lose crucial games in Madison Square Garden in front of many of us?

Am I waiting for a Liberty team to win 30 games to say they're a genuine championship contender? No. In my view, our team has a good chance to be a genuine championship contender in 2021 if our young players develop in 2020.

Still waiting for your answer, root_thing. You've been the strongest advocate for getting Angel. So if that happens--and it could--do you believe our team will be a genuine championship contender in 2020? Yes or no. If you say "yes," if we get Angel, then we'll see which of us is right.

I wish I'd been wrong about Laimbeer's best teams. I certainly could be wrong about the value of getting Angel. I hope New York wins a WNBA championship in 2020, with or without Angel. But I don't see it. My realistic hope is 2021.


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PostPosted: 11/09/19 11:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

How do you define "genuine" championship contender? You're essentially asking for certainty in a speculative discussion. I said pretty clearly that NY wouldn't be the favorite, but they'd have a chance if they could reach 20 wins. I was piggybacking off NYL_WNBA_FAN's point that franchise-type players improve their team by 6-7 wins in the first year. That makes NY around a .500 team just by adding Sabrina. OK, lets say that's optimistic, But NY can still bring in help at center, hire a new coach who has a clue, and then add a healthy Angel. Couldn't that realistically get you to 20 wins? Remember, Chicago wion 20 games this year. They improved 7 games basically by changing coaches. Their big player move was to add Jantel Lavender for 23 games before she got hurt.

To me, a 20 win team would have a realistic chance. The key is having players who can make big shots at big moments. McCoughtry is that kind of player. If Ionescu can carry over her clutch ability from college, then we have two players like that. I believe all those Laimbeer teams bogged down because they didn't have a crunch-time player. Prince could make big shots during the regular season, but she would mostly disappear in the playoffs. Charles was good for consistency, but she wasn't great at making the game-winning or tying shot. So, if you could have two clutch players in Angel and Sabrina, then the Liberty should be in business. Plus Tina and Nurse are there to provide support over the course of a whole game. I see Durr as the one who comes off the bench, along with Johannes and Allen. That gives you scoring depth off the bench. The one big question is if NY can find a coach who can get them to play half-decent defense. Otherwise, this whole scenario falls flat. McCoughtry is a plus in this regard because when she is healthy and motivated, Angel is a great defender. She can help set the tone. But the key remains the coach. Right now, none of us have a clue what's happening with their search.



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Even now by the gate with your long hair blowing
And the colors of the day that lie along your arms
You must barter your life to make sure you are living
And the crowd that has come
You give them the colors
And the bells and wind and the dream
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