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mavcarter
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PostPosted: 10/07/19 11:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
These guard selections are just horrendous...


Who should’ve been chosen instead?



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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 10/07/19 12:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mavcarter wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
These guard selections are just horrendous...


Who should’ve been chosen instead?

Personally I think Toliver's 23 games were good enough to create a gap that gets her in ahead of the other options. I would also argue that given the teams are GGFFC, DeShields barely played any 'guard' all season and certainly didn't start there, so shouldn't even be a candidate for the spot she got.

It's far from a perfect stat, but here are the guards or even 'guards' league-wide and their PER before you reach Sims (I left out a few with very low minutes played):

Aerial Powers 21.8
Kristi Toliver 20.5
Courtney Vandersloot 19.0
Courtney Williams 19.0
Arike Ogunbowale 18.3
Allie Quigley 17.8
Leilani Mitchell 17.6
Ariel Atkins 17.0
Kayla McBride 16.7
Allisha Gray 16.5
Alysha Clark 16.3
Diamond DeShields 16.2
Erica Wheeler 15.8
Chelsea Gray 15.8
Jewell Loyd 15.6
Riquna Williams 15.4
Shatori Walker-Kimbrough 15.2
Tiffany Hayes 15.1
Kelsey Mitchell 15.1
Odyssey Sims 15.0



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Aladyyn



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PostPosted: 10/07/19 12:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mavcarter wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
These guard selections are just horrendous...


Who should’ve been chosen instead?

Toliver, Mitchell, Quigley, McBride, even Williams or heck, Ogunbowale (what does DeShields have over her anyways?)


mavcarter
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PostPosted: 10/07/19 12:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
It's far from a perfect stat, but here are the guards or even 'guards' league-wide and their PER before you reach Sims (I left out a few with very low minutes played):

Aerial Powers 21.8
Kristi Toliver 20.5
Courtney Vandersloot 19.0
Courtney Williams 19.0
Arike Ogunbowale 18.3
Allie Quigley 17.8
Leilani Mitchell 17.6
Ariel Atkins 17.0
Kayla McBride 16.7
Allisha Gray 16.5
Alysha Clark 16.3
Diamond DeShields 16.2
Erica Wheeler 15.8
Chelsea Gray 15.8
Jewell Loyd 15.6
Riquna Williams 15.4
Shatori Walker-Kimbrough 15.2
Tiffany Hayes 15.1
Kelsey Mitchell 15.1
Odyssey Sims 15.0


Toliver, McBride, and C. Williams are the only names I see as having legitimate cases to replace Gray, DeShields, and Sims.

But horrendous is pushing it.. Laughing



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mavcarter
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PostPosted: 10/07/19 12:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Toliver with 23 games played? I could see second team, at best.

I’m assuming you’re referring to Leilani Mitchell, who had a very good season but wasn’t an All Star and was on an 8th place team. Hard to see that happening.

DeShields averaged more points, rebounds, and 0.1 less assists than Quigley.

McBride’s numbers are down from last year.

C. Williams I agree with. Could’ve made a legitimate argument, but are her numbers so much better than (Gray, DeShields, Sims) that’s it’s horrendous? Wasn’t an All Star either.

Ogunbowale was a rookie putting up points on a non playoff team and wasn’t an All Star.



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Aladyyn



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PostPosted: 10/07/19 12:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mavcarter wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
It's far from a perfect stat, but here are the guards or even 'guards' league-wide and their PER before you reach Sims (I left out a few with very low minutes played):

Aerial Powers 21.8
Kristi Toliver 20.5
Courtney Vandersloot 19.0
Courtney Williams 19.0
Arike Ogunbowale 18.3
Allie Quigley 17.8
Leilani Mitchell 17.6
Ariel Atkins 17.0
Kayla McBride 16.7
Allisha Gray 16.5
Alysha Clark 16.3
Diamond DeShields 16.2
Erica Wheeler 15.8
Chelsea Gray 15.8
Jewell Loyd 15.6
Riquna Williams 15.4
Shatori Walker-Kimbrough 15.2
Tiffany Hayes 15.1
Kelsey Mitchell 15.1
Odyssey Sims 15.0


Toliver, McBride, and C. Williams are the only names I see as having legitimate cases to replace Gray, DeShields, and Sims.

But horrendous is pushing it.. Laughing

All 3 are inefficient scorers, Gray and Sims are turnover machines (#1 and #2 in the league), DeShields is overall a very limited half-court player in terms of scoring, playmaking, spacing.

Seriously, DeShields was 8th on the Sky in TS% among players with at least 20 appearances, you could make the argument that she was detrimental to her team's offense!


Aladyyn



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PostPosted: 10/07/19 12:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mavcarter wrote:
Toliver with 23 games played? I could see second team, at best.

I’m assuming you’re referring to Leilani Mitchell, who had a very good season but wasn’t an All Star and was on an 8th place team. Hard to see that happening.

DeShields averaged more points, rebounds, and 0.1 less assists than Quigley.

McBride’s numbers are down from last year.

C. Williams I agree with. Could’ve made a legitimate argument, but are her numbers so much better than (Gray, DeShields, Sims) that’s it’s horrendous? Wasn’t an All Star either.

Ogunbowale was a rookie putting up points on a non playoff team and wasn’t an All Star.

Whether a player made an All-Star team should have 0 bearing on All-WNBA.

Phoenix was dragged to the finish line by literally 3 players, Mitchell was 4th in made 3s, 7th in TS%, and had to fill the playmaking vacuum left by Taurasi's absence (so she had nobody setting her up).

I already posted about DeShields. She's an inefficient chucker who brings little else, and if we have a player like that on All-WNBA it might as well be the one who only got outscored by Griner and did it with NO HELP (as opposed to playing with the best point guard in the league).

Williams has similar stats to Gray and Sims, but her rebounding is an extra dimension that she brings over them that should give her the edge imo.

McBride's usage dropped, but her efficiency stayed the same. In a season where offense was down across the board, having high efficiency should be valued even more than usual.


mavcarter
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PostPosted: 10/07/19 1:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
mavcarter wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
It's far from a perfect stat, but here are the guards or even 'guards' league-wide and their PER before you reach Sims (I left out a few with very low minutes played):

Aerial Powers 21.8
Kristi Toliver 20.5
Courtney Vandersloot 19.0
Courtney Williams 19.0
Arike Ogunbowale 18.3
Allie Quigley 17.8
Leilani Mitchell 17.6
Ariel Atkins 17.0
Kayla McBride 16.7
Allisha Gray 16.5
Alysha Clark 16.3
Diamond DeShields 16.2
Erica Wheeler 15.8
Chelsea Gray 15.8
Jewell Loyd 15.6
Riquna Williams 15.4
Shatori Walker-Kimbrough 15.2
Tiffany Hayes 15.1
Kelsey Mitchell 15.1
Odyssey Sims 15.0


Toliver, McBride, and C. Williams are the only names I see as having legitimate cases to replace Gray, DeShields, and Sims.

But horrendous is pushing it.. Laughing

All 3 are inefficient scorers, Gray and Sims are turnover machines (#1 and #2 in the league), DeShields is overall a very limited half-court player in terms of scoring, playmaking, spacing.

Seriously, DeShields was 8th on the Sky in TS% among players with at least 20 appearances, you could make the argument that she was detrimental to her team's offense!


And this is why I’m not necessarily a huge fan of using TS% in this instance without providing context.

No excuses from me regarding DeShields, not a strong season in terms of shooting percentages. But she’s literally the only player in the starting lineup that can effectively slash/create a shot off the dribble. She’s not hurting the offense. Laughing

I can’t really comment on Gray and Sims because I didn’t watch every Sparks and Lynx game. But if I replaced those two with Toliver, McBride, or C. Williams I honestly can’t imagine those two teams being better than they were.



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Aladyyn



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PostPosted: 10/07/19 1:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mavcarter wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
mavcarter wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
It's far from a perfect stat, but here are the guards or even 'guards' league-wide and their PER before you reach Sims (I left out a few with very low minutes played):

Aerial Powers 21.8
Kristi Toliver 20.5
Courtney Vandersloot 19.0
Courtney Williams 19.0
Arike Ogunbowale 18.3
Allie Quigley 17.8
Leilani Mitchell 17.6
Ariel Atkins 17.0
Kayla McBride 16.7
Allisha Gray 16.5
Alysha Clark 16.3
Diamond DeShields 16.2
Erica Wheeler 15.8
Chelsea Gray 15.8
Jewell Loyd 15.6
Riquna Williams 15.4
Shatori Walker-Kimbrough 15.2
Tiffany Hayes 15.1
Kelsey Mitchell 15.1
Odyssey Sims 15.0


Toliver, McBride, and C. Williams are the only names I see as having legitimate cases to replace Gray, DeShields, and Sims.

But horrendous is pushing it.. Laughing

All 3 are inefficient scorers, Gray and Sims are turnover machines (#1 and #2 in the league), DeShields is overall a very limited half-court player in terms of scoring, playmaking, spacing.

Seriously, DeShields was 8th on the Sky in TS% among players with at least 20 appearances, you could make the argument that she was detrimental to her team's offense!


And this is why I’m not necessarily a huge fan of using TS% in this instance without providing context.

No excuses from me regarding DeShields, not a strong season in terms of shooting percentages. But she’s literally the only player in the starting lineup that can effectively slash/create a shot off the dribble. She’s not hurting the offense. Laughing

I can’t really comment on Gray and Sims because I didn’t watch every Sparks and Lynx game. But if I replaced those two with Toliver, McBride, or C. Williams I honestly can’t imagine those two teams being better than they were.

"Creating off the dribble" should only count if she can actually make those shots Wink

And sure, if you replaced Gray or Sims with McBride or Williams their teams would probably be worse, but that's not a player quality issue, but rather a playstyle/role issue. I'm pretty sure most teams would get worse if you replaced their starting point guard with an equally proficient shooting guard Razz


willtalk



Joined: 13 Apr 2012
Posts: 791
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PostPosted: 10/07/19 1:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Gray did not have one of her better seasons and she tailed off quite a bit towards the end of the season. It would not have been a disservice or shock if she did not make the team. However, I believe that voters realized that every team the Sparks faced made her their defensive priority. That along with the fact she put up a lot of minutes because she was so important to the team. In fact, the fact that Gray was the focus of the opposition's defense was one of the bones of contention with Parker and Nneka's disagreement with Fisher. They felt they needed to come up with another option.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 10/07/19 1:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:

Whether a player made an All-Star team should have 0 bearing on All-WNBA


Indeed, it was just last year we had a player make first team All W without being an All Star.



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mavcarter
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PostPosted: 10/07/19 1:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
Whether a player made an All-Star team should have 0 bearing on All-WNBA.


Probably shouldn’t, but it clearly does.

Aladyyn wrote:
Phoenix was dragged to the finish line by literally 3 players, Mitchell was 4th in made 3s, 7th in TS%, and had to fill the playmaking vacuum left by Taurasi's absence (so she had nobody setting her up).


Good numbers, still can’t recall an 8th seed being rewarded with two All WNBA players.

Aladyyn wrote:
I already posted about DeShields. She's an inefficient chucker who brings little else, and if we have a player like that on All-WNBA it might as well be the one who only got outscored by Griner and did it with NO HELP (as opposed to playing with the best point guard in the league).


Probably no point in us debating about this one, you’ve made it clear DeShields isn’t your cup of tea.

Aladyyn wrote:
Williams has similar stats to Gray and Sims, but her rebounding is an extra dimension that she brings over them that should give her the edge imo.


I agree, I stated C. Williams had a legitimate argument.

Aladyyn wrote:
McBride's usage dropped, but her efficiency stayed the same. In a season where offense was down across the board, having high efficiency should be valued even more than usual.


If McBride couldn’t make All WNBA last year when her numbers were better, hard to see her making it this year.



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mavcarter
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PostPosted: 10/07/19 1:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:

Whether a player made an All-Star team should have 0 bearing on All-WNBA


Indeed, it was just last year we had a player make first team All W without being an All Star.


One example of Hayes doesn’t diminish the point that All Stars make All WNBA teams.



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Aladyyn



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PostPosted: 10/07/19 1:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mavcarter wrote:

If McBride couldn’t make All WNBA last year when her numbers were better, hard to see her making it this year.

The competition was much weaker this year. Diggins-Smith didn't play (btw 8th seed got 2 All-WNBA spots last year), Taurasi barely played, Hayes regressed hard alongside her whole team. That's 3 spots just opening up from nothing.


mavcarter
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PostPosted: 10/07/19 1:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
mavcarter wrote:

If McBride couldn’t make All WNBA last year when her numbers were better, hard to see her making it this year.

The competition was much weaker this year. Diggins-Smith didn't play (btw 8th seed got 2 All-WNBA spots last year), Taurasi barely played, Hayes regressed hard alongside her whole team. That's 3 spots just opening up from nothing.


Aht aht, don’t be providing context on why McBride didn’t make it. Wink



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willtalk



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PostPosted: 10/07/19 4:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
mavcarter wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
mavcarter wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
It's far from a perfect stat, but here are the guards or even 'guards' league-wide and their PER before you reach Sims (I left out a few with very low minutes played):

Aerial Powers 21.8
Kristi Toliver 20.5
Courtney Vandersloot 19.0
Courtney Williams 19.0
Arike Ogunbowale 18.3
Allie Quigley 17.8
Leilani Mitchell 17.6
Ariel Atkins 17.0
Kayla McBride 16.7
Allisha Gray 16.5
Alysha Clark 16.3
Diamond DeShields 16.2
Erica Wheeler 15.8
Chelsea Gray 15.8
Jewell Loyd 15.6
Riquna Williams 15.4
Shatori Walker-Kimbrough 15.2
Tiffany Hayes 15.1
Kelsey Mitchell 15.1
Odyssey Sims 15.0


Toliver, McBride, and C. Williams are the only names I see as having legitimate cases to replace Gray, DeShields, and Sims.

But horrendous is pushing it.. Laughing

All 3 are inefficient scorers, Gray and Sims are turnover machines (#1 and #2 in the league), DeShields is overall a very limited half-court player in terms of scoring, playmaking, spacing.

Seriously, DeShields was 8th on the Sky in TS% among players with at least 20 appearances, you could make the argument that she was detrimental to her team's offense!


And this is why I’m not necessarily a huge fan of using TS% in this instance without providing context.

No excuses from me regarding DeShields, not a strong season in terms of shooting percentages. But she’s literally the only player in the starting lineup that can effectively slash/create a shot off the dribble. She’s not hurting the offense. Laughing

I can’t really comment on Gray and Sims because I didn’t watch every Sparks and Lynx game. But if I replaced those two with Toliver, McBride, or C. Williams I honestly can’t imagine those two teams being better than they were.

"Creating off the dribble" should only count if she can actually make those shots Wink

And sure, if you replaced Gray or Sims with McBride or Williams their teams would probably be worse, but that's not a player quality issue, but rather a playstyle/role issue. I'm pretty sure most teams would get worse if you replaced their starting point guard with an equally proficient shooting guard Razz
You are doing a lot of cherry picking to justify your arguments. You say it is not a matter of the quality of the player but the role, yet you site Williams superiority as a rebounder to justify her being better than the players who made the team. Isn't that also a role playing issue? The player who handles the ball is less apt to be in position to rebound that an off ball player. Also rebounding is not that important for a guard in general. Certainly not as important as assists and 3pt shooting. Your arguments are generally not rational.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 10/07/19 4:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
mavcarter wrote:

If McBride couldn’t make All WNBA last year when her numbers were better, hard to see her making it this year.

The competition was much weaker this year. Diggins-Smith didn't play (btw 8th seed got 2 All-WNBA spots last year), Taurasi barely played, Hayes regressed hard alongside her whole team. That's 3 spots just opening up from nothing.


I think the team success minimum standard is playoffs. I would have said .500 record (like the presumed standard for MVP), but first teamer Griner was on a playoff team with a 15-19 record.

McBride didn’t meet the team success standard last year even though she had individual success. This year was the opposite. Team success, individually not quite as successful.



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Aladyyn



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PostPosted: 10/07/19 11:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

willtalk wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
mavcarter wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
mavcarter wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
It's far from a perfect stat, but here are the guards or even 'guards' league-wide and their PER before you reach Sims (I left out a few with very low minutes played):

Aerial Powers 21.8
Kristi Toliver 20.5
Courtney Vandersloot 19.0
Courtney Williams 19.0
Arike Ogunbowale 18.3
Allie Quigley 17.8
Leilani Mitchell 17.6
Ariel Atkins 17.0
Kayla McBride 16.7
Allisha Gray 16.5
Alysha Clark 16.3
Diamond DeShields 16.2
Erica Wheeler 15.8
Chelsea Gray 15.8
Jewell Loyd 15.6
Riquna Williams 15.4
Shatori Walker-Kimbrough 15.2
Tiffany Hayes 15.1
Kelsey Mitchell 15.1
Odyssey Sims 15.0


Toliver, McBride, and C. Williams are the only names I see as having legitimate cases to replace Gray, DeShields, and Sims.

But horrendous is pushing it.. Laughing

All 3 are inefficient scorers, Gray and Sims are turnover machines (#1 and #2 in the league), DeShields is overall a very limited half-court player in terms of scoring, playmaking, spacing.

Seriously, DeShields was 8th on the Sky in TS% among players with at least 20 appearances, you could make the argument that she was detrimental to her team's offense!


And this is why I’m not necessarily a huge fan of using TS% in this instance without providing context.

No excuses from me regarding DeShields, not a strong season in terms of shooting percentages. But she’s literally the only player in the starting lineup that can effectively slash/create a shot off the dribble. She’s not hurting the offense. Laughing

I can’t really comment on Gray and Sims because I didn’t watch every Sparks and Lynx game. But if I replaced those two with Toliver, McBride, or C. Williams I honestly can’t imagine those two teams being better than they were.

"Creating off the dribble" should only count if she can actually make those shots Wink

And sure, if you replaced Gray or Sims with McBride or Williams their teams would probably be worse, but that's not a player quality issue, but rather a playstyle/role issue. I'm pretty sure most teams would get worse if you replaced their starting point guard with an equally proficient shooting guard Razz
You are doing a lot of cherry picking to justify your arguments. You say it is not a matter of the quality of the player but the role, yet you site Williams superiority as a rebounder to justify her being better than the players who made the team. Isn't that also a role playing issue? The player who handles the ball is less apt to be in position to rebound that an off ball player. Also rebounding is not that important for a guard in general. Certainly not as important as assists and 3pt shooting. Your arguments are generally not rational.

I'm not cherry picking, in fact I would say I'm looking at the bigger picture by pointing out the negative contributions by these players (turnovers, inefficiency, lack of playmaking). Williams has better AST/TO than either Gray or Sims, is a better 3pt shooter than Sims, and her rebounding is just something extra that she brings over other guards, and rebounding is important, period.

Another inefficient guard I'll throw into the mix is Cloud, who is a better playmaker and defender than both Sims and Gray Smile


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