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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11403
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Posted: 07/26/19 9:41 am ::: |
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myrtle wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
One thing I hear a lot in talking to basketball fans and high school-age players and families is that "You barely make any money in the WNBA so don't even consider taking basketball seriously."
From that perspective, this kind of communication makes some sense, as it upgrades the image of the league, and women's basketball, in the eyes of people who really don't know anything about it. |
so...do they think they will be making $100,000 (or even $50k if you want to go salary only) for five months work when they first get out of college? |
Logic is not a strong point for parents of young players.
They lack information (thank you NCAA) and are bombarded with competing coaches from different sports trying to cherrypick the best athletes. Volleyball coaches, for example, will discount any professional opportunities for basketball in order to get elite athletes to play their sport; same with soccer.
Complaints about low pay and bad working conditions from the WNBA players obviously don't help correct these misperceptions -- though of course, the WNBA players need to do so to improve their chances of getting a better contract.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67491 Location: Where the action is
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Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019 Posts: 4707
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Posted: 08/21/19 7:19 pm ::: |
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One thing I hope gets recommended is playing teams in “series” style as much as venues can accommodate for it. A team would play two games against the same team in the same city in a span of 2-3 days. A win-win: Cuts down on travel costs, and players travel less & thus get more rest in between games. Not a foreign concept (baseball), and since there are only 17 home games, attendance shouldn’t be affected too much (some may fight me on that, but whatever).
Should be noted, the W did this very minimally back in 2013, but went away from it after that for reasons unclear. Still think it should be highly considered at a time like this.
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22513 Location: NJ
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Posted: 08/21/19 7:57 pm ::: |
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A strike would nearly kill the league. Having the entire 2020 cancelled would guarantee it.
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sportsfan48
Joined: 17 Nov 2004 Posts: 1228
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Posted: 08/21/19 11:30 pm ::: |
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toad455 wrote: |
A strike would nearly kill the league. Having the entire 2020 cancelled would guarantee it. |
I agree. I have been a season ticket holder since the beginning but if I sit out a season, I may find I don't miss it and never come back.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011 Posts: 10911
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Posted: 08/22/19 7:43 am ::: |
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So of the various tactics that have been used in the men's game - strike, lockout, or de-certification of the players union, what seems to be the most likely option in the event the negotiations prove unsuccessful?
Seems like there is a lot of anger on the player's side at least over money and travel. Could be a tense period of time.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24484 Location: London
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Posted: 08/22/19 9:28 am ::: |
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There was also this piece recently, for a more positive slant: http://womenshoopsworld.com/2019/08/15/cba-talks-progressing-smoothly-players-union-says/
The problem the players always have in these negotiations is that, based on most of the information we have, the owners aren't making anything out of the league. In fact, most indications still suggest that most of them are losing money most years. So where's the leverage in threatening to strike? "If you don't give us what we want, we won't play!" "Well okay then, that saves me money. See ya."
I think that's why we've seen several consecutive CBAs with limited changes. The players ask for what they want, the owners give up whatever they were always planning to give up in the first place, and then the players eventually pretty much take that because that's what's there to be had. Individual players have plenty of power in this league, because they always have that "well I'll just play overseas only then" card; but the players en masse don't have much because the league isn't profitable. The owners obviously want to be involved on some level or they wouldn't still be owners, but it's not like they suddenly lose a vast income stream if the players all stay home.
I won't be surprised if we're without a CBA for a while, i.e. if they go past October 31st without a deal. They might even have to rearrange the offseason schedule a bit if the negotiations drag on. But I'll be surprised if we lose games. There's so little to be gained by anyone from a lockout/strike. |
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11403
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Posted: 08/22/19 10:22 am ::: |
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Richyyy wrote: |
There was also this piece recently, for a more positive slant: http://womenshoopsworld.com/2019/08/15/cba-talks-progressing-smoothly-players-union-says/
The problem the players always have in these negotiations is that, based on most of the information we have, the owners aren't making anything out of the league. In fact, most indications still suggest that most of them are losing money most years. So where's the leverage in threatening to strike? "If you don't give us what we want, we won't play!" "Well okay then, that saves me money. See ya."
I think that's why we've seen several consecutive CBAs with limited changes. The players ask for what they want, the owners give up whatever they were always planning to give up in the first place, and then the players eventually pretty much take that because that's what's there to be had. Individual players have plenty of power in this league, because they always have that "well I'll just play overseas only then" card; but the players en masse don't have much because the league isn't profitable. The owners obviously want to be involved on some level or they wouldn't still be owners, but it's not like they suddenly lose a vast income stream if the players all stay home.
I won't be surprised if we're without a CBA for a while, i.e. if they go past October 31st without a deal. They might even have to rearrange the offseason schedule a bit if the negotiations drag on. But I'll be surprised if we lose games. There's so little to be gained by anyone from a lockout/strike. |
Excellent summary ...
But one thing the players need to avoid is claiming that $75,000 for five months work (if that) is not enough to live on. I've never made $75,000 in a 12-month span, and I have a feeling a lot of people have had the same experience.
And of course any comparisons to the NBA or other major spots aren't going to work either.
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004 Posts: 16516 Location: Chicago
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Posted: 08/22/19 10:52 am ::: |
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In contract negotiations, labor always has to express willingness to impose a work stoppage, as does management/ownership. Without that, a side has no leverage in the negotiations.
Collective bargaining always has work stoppage as a possibility. It is exceedingly rare that either side uses it. Same here.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67491 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 08/22/19 11:42 am ::: |
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Both strikes and lockouts have been threatened in previous CBA negotiations
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Rock Hard
Joined: 02 Aug 2010 Posts: 5567 Location: Chocolate Paradise
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Posted: 08/23/19 6:26 am ::: |
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I have been interested in what are the specific numbers the players want to achieve with this new CBA.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 64255
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67491 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 08/29/19 2:24 pm ::: |
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A lot of players have expressed excitement about this advisory board on social media. I don't know enough about labor negotiations to understand its purpose or value.
_________________ The truth is like poetry
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 08/29/19 2:43 pm ::: |
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I don't see any real sports management experience on that board. I would think understanding how teams can make money would be a big part of the evaluation process. That, in turn, informs your negotiations. This looks more like the board for a nonprofit social services organization or some kind of foundation.
_________________ You can always do something else.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011 Posts: 10911
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Posted: 08/29/19 2:49 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
A lot of players have expressed excitement about this advisory board on social media. I don't know enough about labor negotiations to understand its purpose or value. |
I'm thinking the board members will be posting a lot of tweets in favor of the players.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24484 Location: London
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Posted: 08/29/19 3:13 pm ::: |
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Yeah, 'Board of Advocates' sounds fairly pointless to me. Sort of like a low-end version of Washington lobbyists, but without anyone meaningful for them to go out and lobby.
Slightly concerning that the WNBPA would consider something like this necessary in the middle of CBA negotiations. Is there something significant that they're not getting that they think this group can help them achieve? |
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18371 Location: Phoenix
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Posted: 08/29/19 3:54 pm ::: |
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root_thing wrote: |
I don't see any real sports management experience on that board. I would think understanding how teams can make money would be a big part of the evaluation process. That, in turn, informs your negotiations. This looks more like the board for a nonprofit social services organization or some kind of foundation. |
As an aside, Jerry Stackhouse was formerly the National Basketball Players Association Vice-President. He also recently completed the Harvard Business School executive education program on the Business of Entertainment, Media, and Sports.
From the players' perspective, having a former executive with the NBA players' union certainly adds to the negotiation and bargaining processes.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67491 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 08/29/19 4:04 pm ::: |
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https://twitter.com/MechelleV/status/1167179829004918792
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I was told the Board of Advocates is not directly assisting with the CBA. It's more general areas of advocacy. They were "identified because of their willingness to support the union in all areas, including marketing and licensing and our off the court philanthropic projects." |
_________________ The truth is like poetry
Most people hate poetry
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 08/29/19 5:13 pm ::: |
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CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
root_thing wrote: |
I don't see any real sports management experience on that board. I would think understanding how teams can make money would be a big part of the evaluation process. That, in turn, informs your negotiations. This looks more like the board for a nonprofit social services organization or some kind of foundation. |
As an aside, Jerry Stackhouse was formerly the National Basketball Players Association Vice-President. He also recently completed the Harvard Business School executive education program on the Business of Entertainment, Media, and Sports.
From the players' perspective, having a former executive with the NBA players' union certainly adds to the negotiation and bargaining processes. |
Maybe, but the economics are very different. The NBA doesn't enter every season wondering if this could be their last.
_________________ You can always do something else.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18371 Location: Phoenix
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Posted: 08/30/19 3:44 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
https://twitter.com/MechelleV/status/1167179829004918792
Quote: |
I was told the Board of Advocates is not directly assisting with the CBA. It's more general areas of advocacy. They were "identified because of their willingness to support the union in all areas, including marketing and licensing and our off the court philanthropic projects." |
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The WNBPA's press release stated:
Union leadership, specifically the WNBPA Executive Committee, identified each Board member to share their guidance and unique perspectives in support of the WNBPA’s efforts to create meaningful changes in the working conditions of the world-class athletes who play in the WNBA.
https://wnbpa.com/press-release-wnbpa-board-of-advocates/
"Working conditions" is part of collective bargaining -- salaries, working conditions, benefits, other compensation, etc.
But the statement to Mechelle Voepel indicates otherwise.
And if there are efforts in marketing, licensing, etc. that relate to or are set forth in the CBA, it will necessarily involve the collective bargaining process.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67491 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 09/13/19 8:16 am ::: |
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HOW NNEKA OGWUMIKE BECAME MADAM PRESIDENT, THE FACE OF WNBA PLAYERS
https://theundefeated.com/features/nneka-oguwmike-los-angeles-sparks-president-of-wnba-players-association/
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There is always the possibility that both sides won’t come to an agreement before the start of the next season. Players such as seven-time All-Star Tina Charles said they’d consider sitting out should the sides fail to reach an agreement. Last July, Phoenix Mercury guard Diana Taurasi said players wouldn’t be able to achieve pay equity without a strike.
While Ogwumike acknowledged the possibility of a player strike as being a “reality to some degree,” it is not something she, or the executive committee, is hoping for or expecting.
“We want to play,” Ogwumike said. |
_________________ The truth is like poetry
Most people hate poetry
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24484 Location: London
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Posted: 09/13/19 8:38 am ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
Last July, Phoenix Mercury guard Diana Taurasi said players wouldn’t be able to achieve pay equity without a strike. |
Um, she did? Explicitly, like that? Anyone got the link to that one, because I don't remember a quote like that. |
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67491 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 09/13/19 9:05 am ::: |
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Richyyy wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
Last July, Phoenix Mercury guard Diana Taurasi said players wouldn’t be able to achieve pay equity without a strike. |
Um, she did? Explicitly, like that? Anyone got the link to that one, because I don't remember a quote like that. |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=104&v=54A05iPEjeo
_________________ The truth is like poetry
Most people hate poetry
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Luuuc #NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 22163
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Posted: 09/13/19 9:11 am ::: |
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Kind of an important difference between actually needing to strike and being willing to strike
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24484 Location: London
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Posted: 09/13/19 9:29 am ::: |
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Thanks, pilight. Yeah, she's much more even-handed with the context of the whole conversation than that line makes it sound. She wasn't really saying they had to, or that it would be necessary, just that if they were going to genuinely fight their corner then they needed to be willing to risk things.
The interesting point she made was that if they were going to make a big leap, the investment would have to come from the NBA. And she's right. Hell, it could be initiated by the NBPA if they wanted to. If they said "we'll take 49% of basketball related income rather than 50%, because that 1% should go to those underpaid WNBA players", W salaries would skyrocket. |
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