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| Who should win Rookie of the Year? |
| Napheesa Collier |
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64% |
[ 42 ] |
| Teaira McCowan |
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7% |
[ 5 ] |
| Arike Ogunbowale |
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26% |
[ 17 ] |
| Jackie Young |
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1% |
[ 1 ] |
| someone else |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
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| Total Votes : 65 |
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| Author |
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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 Posted: 08/30/19 7:35 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| There is all of this Collier and Arike talk, but is there anyone who doesn't think that McCowan is the best player in the class? |
Who will eventually become the best player isn't always apparent when players are rookies.
For example, compare these two classmates:
Player A ran away with ROY, but Player B wound up with the better career (scoring over 1000 more points than Player A, reaching the finals four times, making first team All WNBA twice, named to the top 20@20 all time great W players, etc.) Not one person anywhere, probably not even Player B herself, would have predicted that during their rookie season. |
And now she's making that sweet, sweet, NBA assistant coaching money.
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 08/30/19 8:38 pm ::: |
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| Could Johannes sneak into the All-Rookie over her teammate Asia Durr?
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Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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Location: Chicago
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| Posted: 08/30/19 11:18 pm ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| There is all of this Collier and Arike talk, but is there anyone who doesn't think that McCowan is the best player in the class? |
If she had started from the beginning of the season, she'd easily win. A rookie averaging a double-double would win the award hands down. She's made it competitive, but a bit late. |
I'm not suggesting she will win or will get many votes (I think Arike wins this by a wide margin). But if a team had to start one rookie tomorrow, I can't imagine anyone picking anyone other than McCowan.
tldr - She won't win, but it's pretty clear she is the best.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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greg5222
Joined: 03 May 2006
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| Posted: 08/31/19 8:21 pm ::: |
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Arike = ROY She BAD!!
PEACE & LOVE GO MYSTICS!!!!!
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SpaceJunkie
Joined: 10 Sep 2012
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| Posted: 08/31/19 8:25 pm ::: |
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| greg5222 wrote: |
Arike = ROY She BAD!!
PEACE & LOVE GO MYSTICS!!!!! |
I want to know why Arike, on pace to be perhaps the greatest player in WNBA history, wasn't this good in college? I guess the only person able stop Arike is Muffet McGraw.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 08/31/19 9:10 pm ::: |
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If anything, games like this demonstrate to me why Ogunbowale shouldn't be the Rookie of the Year. I mean, she's putting up gaudy numbers, on a team going nowhere; congratulations. Like, her supporters want to talk about how she doesn't have any help... yeah, and that's the only reason why she has carte blanche to jack it up as many times as she wants to: you think she'd be averaging seventeen shots a game, if Diggins-Smith were available?
I personally think that Collier averaging thirteen points as the third option is more impressive than Ogunbowale averaging seventeen points on a team where she doesn't have to share the ball with anybody. I think the only player in the league this year with a better points-per-shot ratio than Collier is Leilani Mitchell. And I don't think that there's even a question that Collier is the more complete player.
Better player + puts up numbers in games that matter = ROY, to me.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 08/31/19 9:18 pm ::: |
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| FWIW, the last rookie to have three 30+ point games did not win ROY
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/31/19 9:19 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| FWIW, the last rookie to have three 30+ point games did not win ROY |
Sims?
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Luuuc
#NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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| Posted: 08/31/19 9:23 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
If anything, games like this demonstrate to me why Ogunbowale shouldn't be the Rookie of the Year. I mean, she's putting up gaudy numbers, on a team going nowhere; congratulations. Like, her supporters want to talk about how she doesn't have any help... yeah, and that's the only reason why she has carte blanche to jack it up as many times as she wants to: you think she'd be averaging seventeen shots a game, if Diggins-Smith were available?
I personally think that Collier averaging thirteen points as the third option is more impressive than Ogunbowale averaging seventeen points on a team where she doesn't have to share the ball with anybody. I think the only player in the league this year with a better points-per-shot ratio than Collier is Leilani Mitchell. And I don't think that there's even a question that Collier is the more complete player.
Better player + puts up numbers in games that matter = ROY, to me. |
I think there are reasonable arguments in both directions for that. Putting up numbers efficiently as a tertiary option on a team that actually wins games is valuable for sure. Putting up numbers as the primary option on a terrible team shouldn't just be dismissed though IMO. Dallas has still won some games, and pretty much the only times they have won games is when AO has scored in bunches. Everyone in the league knows she's their first, second and third option but she's still not shut-downable. That's still impressive, especially for a rookie.
I'll be interested to see how the votes end up being distributed because I expect they'll both get a sizeable share.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 08/31/19 9:30 pm ::: |
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| Luuuc wrote: |
| ... Putting up numbers as the primary option on a terrible team shouldn't just be dismissed though IMO. Dallas has still won some games, and pretty much the only times they have won games is when AO has scored in bunches. Everyone in the league knows she's their first, second and third option but she's still not shut-downable. That's still impressive, especially for a rookie... |
Time will tell on that, I think. History has shown that, when a player comes "out of nowhere" and puts up unexpectedly gaudy numbers, like Ogunbowale has, the following season tells the real story. You say that teams can't stop her, even knowing that she's Dallas' only option, but once coaching staffs get a full season's worth of tape, the following season usually tells the tale, more accurately than the "breakout" season.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 08/31/19 9:31 pm ::: |
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| PUmatty wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| FWIW, the last rookie to have three 30+ point games did not win ROY |
Sims? |
Yep
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zune69
Joined: 27 May 2010
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| Posted: 08/31/19 10:02 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| Luuuc wrote: |
| ... Putting up numbers as the primary option on a terrible team shouldn't just be dismissed though IMO. Dallas has still won some games, and pretty much the only times they have won games is when AO has scored in bunches. Everyone in the league knows she's their first, second and third option but she's still not shut-downable. That's still impressive, especially for a rookie... |
Time will tell on that, I think. History has shown that, when a player comes "out of nowhere" and puts up unexpectedly gaudy numbers, like Ogunbowale has, the following season tells the real story. You say that teams can't stop her, even knowing that she's Dallas' only option, but once coaching staffs get a full season's worth of tape, the following season usually tells the tale, more accurately than the "breakout" season. |
How in the hell did Arike "Come out of nowhere?"
Arike shot 45/38/75 as a #1 option over 4 years at ND and won a championship. ND beat UConn in back to back final fours.....Even though Collier had a great career at UConn, she did not lead her team to a Championship.
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Luuuc
#NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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| Posted: 08/31/19 10:03 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| Luuuc wrote: |
| ... Putting up numbers as the primary option on a terrible team shouldn't just be dismissed though IMO. Dallas has still won some games, and pretty much the only times they have won games is when AO has scored in bunches. Everyone in the league knows she's their first, second and third option but she's still not shut-downable. That's still impressive, especially for a rookie... |
Time will tell on that, I think. History has shown that, when a player comes "out of nowhere" and puts up unexpectedly gaudy numbers, like Ogunbowale has, the following season tells the real story. You say that teams can't stop her, even knowing that she's Dallas' only option, but once coaching staffs get a full season's worth of tape, the following season usually tells the tale, more accurately than the "breakout" season. |
Oh I'm definitely not trying to predict the future. Just my thoughts on this season. Teams will scout her, she will work on counter moves, the composition of her own team will change - hopefully for the better - and she will need to adjust to that too.
I don't agree that she has come out of nowhere though. All season she has been chucking up shots at high volumes, and teams aren't so slow to scout other players & teams that it takes months to adjust to what is happening.
June & July she was averaging 15 FGA, August she averaged 18.5, so that's about 1 extra attempt per quarter.
Very simplistic, but her FG% has increased in that time. June 32.7%, July 35.3%, August 44.1%.
Her assists have also increased from 1.9 to 2.9 to 4.0 in the same periods so her game is already evolving.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 08/31/19 10:14 pm ::: |
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| zune69 wrote: |
| How in the hell did Arike "Come out of nowhere?" |
Ogunbowale came out of nowhere from the perspective of: 1) there were no expectations on her having to be the leading scorer of a professional team, coming straight out of college; players drafted outside of the lottery aren't generally expected to be franchise players. And 2) there was no useful tape to develop a scouting report on Ogunbowale with. That amateur stuff might be fun to watch, if you're into that sort of thing, but it doesn't give much meaningful insight into what she's going to play like against defenses at the next level.
If you're a fan of college basketball, your mileage will obviously vary but, from my point of view, going from amateurs to the pros is as close to "out of nowhere" as makes no odds.
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/31/19 10:17 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| zune69 wrote: |
| How in the hell did Arike "Come out of nowhere?" |
Ogunbowale came out of nowhere from the perspective of: 1) there were no expectations on her having to be the leading scorer of a professional team, coming straight out of college; players drafted outside of the lottery aren't generally expected to be franchise players. And 2) there was no useful tape to develop a scouting report on Ogunbowale with. That amateur stuff might be fun to watch, if you're into that sort of thing, but it doesn't give much meaningful insight into what she's going to play like against defenses at the next level.
If you're a fan of college basketball, your mileage will obviously vary but, from my point of view, going from amateurs to the pros is as close to "out of nowhere" as makes no odds. |
So, to you, "out of nowhere" just mean "is a rookie"?
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 08/31/19 10:28 pm ::: |
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| Luuuc wrote: |
| I don't agree that she has come out of nowhere though. All season she has been chucking up shots at high volumes, and teams aren't so slow to scout other players & teams that it takes months to adjust to what is happening. |
It took teams that long to adjust to Tiffany Hayes, when she had her breakout season, and they had way more tape on her than they have on Ogunbowale. And then, they came back the next season with a scouting report on her, only to have to throw it out the window, when she went back to being a Number Two option... except that she wasn't even a Number Two, any more, teams just treated her like that, because of the respect they have for McCoughtry. And not just Hayes, either: remember the difference between how dominant Kelsey Bone looked the year she won Most Improved, and how she looked the year afterward?
I think, from a fan's perspective, because of how many days tend to be between games, that we may think that coaches have more time to spend scouting other teams than they actually have. Like I said, next season will tell the tale.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 08/31/19 10:29 pm ::: |
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| PUmatty wrote: |
| So, to you, "out of nowhere" just mean "is a rookie"? |
No, but I certainly think it applies, in this case.
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Luuuc
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Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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| Posted: 08/31/19 10:30 pm ::: |
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Next season will tell the tale for sure. 100%
But 2019 ROY is decided this season, so it's 2 separate conversations.
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Silky Johnson
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| Posted: 08/31/19 10:38 pm ::: |
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| Luuuc wrote: |
Next season will tell the tale for sure. 100%
But 2019 ROY is decided this season, so it's 2 separate conversations. |
Indeed. And I stand by my previous assessment: Collier should be the Rookie of the Year...
... but Ogunbowale probably will be, anyway.
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Luuuc
#NATC
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| Posted: 08/31/19 10:43 pm ::: |
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| My votes have been with Collier to this point too, but Ogunbowale has been narrowing that margin lately, and the season is not over yet so my mind is not made up.
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MiniLynx
Joined: 30 Jul 2011
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| Posted: 09/01/19 9:25 pm ::: |
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| Collier becomes the second rookie in league history with at least 400 points, 200 rebounds and 60 steals (Catchings 2002). #LosLynx
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NYSports56
Joined: 03 Jul 2018
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| Posted: 09/01/19 10:36 pm ::: |
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| MiniLynx wrote: |
| Collier becomes the second rookie in league history with at least 400 points, 200 rebounds and 60 steals (Catchings 2002). #LosLynx |
She also has 28 blocks. Arike has 1.
Meanwhile, tonight, the Dallas TV announcers are making snide remarks about anyone who doesn't think that Arike should be the MVP, and supporting their case with a graphic showing Arike's MVP "Resume." It listed four bullet points of why Arike should be the MVP. Every single one of them was an accomplishment related to points scored.
Yes, if all that matters is points, Arike is the choice. If you consider other factors, I think it's Napheesa.
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