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Dream @ Aces - 8/13/19
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Who will win this game?
Dream
15%
 15%  [ 3 ]
Aces
85%
 85%  [ 17 ]
Total Votes : 20

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Stormeo



Joined: 14 Jul 2019
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PostPosted: 08/14/19 11:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
Another game, another performance in which we can look at the box score and see that the guards were allowed to shoot the Dream right out of it. At least Breland is starting to hit her shots again, fwiw. Her and Sykes might have the most trade value... once the season’s over ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


If the Dream trade Sykes, they might as well trade everybody. Like, literally everybody: nuke it from orbit, and start over. Sykes doesn't appear to have what it takes to be a #1 at this level, but she still looks like she could be an effective #2, if paired with the right #1. It's already been conclusively proven that Hayes is not a #1 at this level. The only player on the Dream that is good enough to build around, at least, hypothetically, is McCoughtry, and she's too old.


+1 I agree with this take wholeheartedly, even if it probably won’t happen. I just can’t believe Collen kinda stopped starting some of her bench players here and there. I’d like to see Billings, Gülich, Cazorla, even Coffey get starts as the season comes to a close. The starters + Bentley are known commodities at this point, this is <b>the</b> last-place team, they deserve to lose their starting spots. I’ve said it before, but Collen is not navigating her team’s lost season well at all imo. Develop your youth!


Silky Johnson



Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: 08/14/19 12:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:

I think that Gulich has potential as a scorer, but I personally think that she has no significant upside on defense, and I value the latter over the former.


I think Gulich has enough size and quickness to become a good defensive player.

Agree to disagree, I guess. I never watched Gulich at Oregon State, because college basketball isn't relevant to my interests, and I didn't watch many Mercury games last season, either. But my dad is a Dream Founding Fan and STH, so I've seen pretty much every game that Gulich has played this season; I am super unimpressed with her defense.

Quote:
I said "Potential lottery pick" . So that would include up to as many as 6 or 7 players.

I guess, but I don't think that any team in win-now mode is going to have a Top 6 pick, either, although I'll stipulate that that's more likely to happen than the previous scenario.

Also, like I said, I don't watch college basketball, but I watched all of the US's games in the Pan Ams, so I got a chance to see what some of the players you listed look like against grown women. I feel strongly that any GM who wastes a first-round pick on Alarie ought to be fired.



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Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 08/14/19 12:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
Another game, another performance in which we can look at the box score and see that the guards were allowed to shoot the Dream right out of it. At least Breland is starting to hit her shots again, fwiw. Her and Sykes might have the most trade value... once the season’s over ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


If the Dream trade Sykes, they might as well trade everybody. Like, literally everybody: nuke it from orbit, and start over. Sykes doesn't appear to have what it takes to be a #1 at this level, but she still looks like she could be an effective #2, if paired with the right #1. It's already been conclusively proven that Hayes is not a #1 at this level. The only player on the Dream that is good enough to build around, at least, hypothetically, is McCoughtry, and she's too old.


+1 I agree with this take wholeheartedly, even if it probably won’t happen. I just can’t believe Collen kinda stopped starting some of her bench players here and there. I’d like to see Billings, Gülich, Cazorla, even Coffey get starts as the season comes to a close. The starters + Bentley are known commodities at this point, this is <b>the</b> last-place team, they deserve to lose their starting spots. I’ve said it before, but Collen is not navigating her team’s lost season well at all imo. Develop your youth!


Yeah, Atlanta really needs to be playing for 2020 and beyond, at this point. The final nine games should be a "dress rehearsal" for Gulich, Cazorla and Coffey, in order to determine whether they should be part of the Dream's plans, moving forward. I think that Sykes and Billings ought to be safe (I'll stipulate to personal bias, on this point) but, barring injury, I'd start them, as well.

Unless there are some stats/minutes-based contract incentives on the line for Hayes, Montgomery, et. al., they should all be spending a lot of time in their warm-ups, down the stretch.



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zune69



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PostPosted: 08/14/19 1:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:

Agree to disagree, I guess. I never watched Gulich at Oregon State, because college basketball isn't relevant to my interests, and I didn't watch many Mercury games last season, either. But my dad is a Dream Founding Fan and STH, so I've seen pretty much every game that Gulich has played this season; I am super unimpressed with her defense.


I'm not concerned with Gulich's defense playing for an undisciplined team like the Atlanta Dream. I'm more focused on her ability and willingness to play defense. There was one play in yesterday's game where Hamby tried to drive on Gulich but Gulich stayed step for step with her and blocked the shot. Gulich at her size gives great effort on both sides of the ball. She just needs to be more disciplined and improve her defensive fundamentals, preferably under a new coach. I'd rather watch Gulich develop and take her lumps than to watch EWill's lazy ass.

Gulich is still relatively young. She got very little playing in Phoenix and is now playing for an undisciplined team lead by a Coach who has no direction. I'm not saying Gulich is going to be an all-star. But I think she can develop into a very solid rotation player.

Silky Johnson wrote:

Also, like I said, I don't watch college basketball, but I watched all of the US's games in the Pan Ams, so I got a chance to see what some of the players you listed look like against grown women. I feel strongly that any GM who wastes a first-round pick on Alarie ought to be fired.


Again..."Potential"....Bella Alarie is still developing...If she puts on 8-12 quality pounds and adds a consistent jump shot, she's going to be a top 4-5 pick.


Silky Johnson



Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: 08/14/19 2:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
... I'd rather watch Gulich develop and take her lumps than to watch EWill's lazy ass.

You may be under the mistaken impression that my anti-Gulich-ness means that I'm pro-Williams. I'd get rid of both of them, yesterday.

zune69 wrote:
Gulich is still relatively young...

Relative to what, exactly? She's only a year younger than Williams is, despite having three years less experience. At best, she's probably going to be on the wrong side of her prime, by the time she finally figures things out.

Quote:
Again..."Potential"....Bella Alarie is still developing...If she puts on 8-12 quality pounds and adds a consistent jump shot, she's going to be a top 4-5 pick.

I'm certainly willing to believe that Alarie is going to end up getting picked in the Top 4-5. My rebuttal to that would be, you know who else was picked in the Top 4? Elizabeth Williams.

Alarie is likely going to get picked high, whether she develops the skills you think that she needs to, or not, because she's tall, and has a national profile of some consequence. But I don't think she can play, not against pros, and I feel bad for the team that gets stuck with her.



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zune69



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PostPosted: 08/14/19 3:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:

You may be under the mistaken impression that my anti-Gulich-ness means that I'm pro-Williams. I'd get rid of both of them, yesterday.


Cutting Gulich would be premature. She hasn't gotten enough PT to fairly pass judgement on her. Plus, she's still on her rookie deal.


Silky Johnson wrote:
Relative to what, exactly? She's only a year younger than Williams is, despite having three years less experience. At best, she's probably going to be on the wrong side of her prime, by the time she finally figures things out.


Gulich just turned 25. That's still young by WNBA standards, especially with her lack of experience. Gulich has played 46 gms/364 minutes while Williams has played 147 gms/4088 minutes. I'd like to see Gulich get more playing time before getting thrown on the scrap heap.

Silky Johnson wrote:

I'm certainly willing to believe that Alarie is going to end up getting picked in the Top 4-5. My rebuttal to that would be, you know who else was picked in the Top 4? Elizabeth Williams.

Alarie is likely going to get picked high, whether she develops the skills you think that she needs to, or not, because she's tall, and has a national profile of some consequence. But I don't think she can play, not against pros, and I feel bad for the team that gets stuck with her.


Bella will need to play against stiffer competition before I can propery assess her potential as a pro. Making a deep NCAA tournament run would really boost her resume. However, in terms of talent, she passes the eye test. It's just now a matter of development. Is Bella willing to put in the work?


Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 08/14/19 6:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
Relative to what, exactly? She's only a year younger than Williams is, despite having three years less experience. At best, she's probably going to be on the wrong side of her prime, by the time she finally figures things out.


Gulich just turned 25. That's still young by WNBA standards, especially with her lack of experience. Gulich has played 46 gms/364 minutes while Williams has played 147 gms/4088 minutes. I'd like to see Gulich get more playing time before getting thrown on the scrap heap.

"Relatively speaking," twenty-five is not young for an athlete in their second year as a professional. Even in women's (team) sports, a twenty-five year-old professional 'sophomore' is at least 2-3 years behind. They say that point guard and center are the two positions in basketball with the steepest learning curve, so for Gulich to be 2+ years behind her peers makes it unlikely that we're going to see her be effective as a player for much of her physical prime, provided her ceiling is even that high, at all.

Quote:
Bella will need to play against stiffer competition before I can propery assess her potential as a pro.

Stiffer competition than she just faced? She just got done playing on a USA team that would dogwalk any team in the NCAA, and she did not impress. I wouldn't bet that there are more than five teams in the country that could beat either Puerto Rico or Brazil, and Princeton is mathematically unlikely to play more than three of them during the 2019-20 NCAA season, even if they made it all the way to the National Championship, so how stiff could the competition hope to be?

You think playing against college girls in the Ivy League is going to be a better indication of what she's going to look like playing against grown women, than the grown women she just got done playing against?



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zune69



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PostPosted: 08/14/19 8:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

@Silky Johnson

Gulich is on a rookie scale contract. Given her up for nothing without having a young talent with more upside to develop isn't the smartest move. If it takes two more years for Gulich to develop, so be it. There's nothing wrong with having a 27 year old reliable backup center on the roster.

I'm not going to write Alarie off just because she had a subpar tournament, especially when she's still developing physically. You're not high on Alarie, but there are a number of WNBA scouts/coaches who feel the opposite, Coach Thibault being one of them. That doesn't make him right and you wrong. It just means Alarie has enough raw talent to be considered a first round pick. Doesn't mean she's going to be a great player at the next level, but I also wouldn't write her off either.

Hopefully, Alarie uses her poor showing in the Pan Am games as motivation.


Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 08/14/19 8:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Look, I will stipulate that you're not going to get anybody better than Gulich, for what you're paying Gulich. So, from that perspective, sure, you keep her and that contract. And yes, she'll probably get better: my point about that wasn't even to say that she wouldn't, it was that it's probably going to take her until she's 29 or 30 to get to where most of her peers will be when they're 27. Which, from my point of view, makes it a sub-optimal investment. But I will indeed stipulate that she will likely get better... for certain values of 'better.' Hell, in two more years, she might even be as good as Mercedes Russell is, right now.

That said, if I thought somebody would be willing to part with a pick for Gulich, she'd be on the first thang smokin'.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 08/14/19 9:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Gulich is so far down the list of problems with the Dream that she's hardly worth mentioning, let alone spending half a game thread on.

We still don't have PG worth a damn, an issue that's plagued the team from day one. Shalee Lehning may still be the best one we've had.

Williams, Breland, and Sykes are adequate complementary players, as we saw last year when they had a star to complement. Hayes is good, but not a number one option for a team looking to finish higher than 12th. I like Billings and Bentley can be useful in small doses. The rest of the bench is fungible.



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Randy



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PostPosted: 08/14/19 9:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Gulich is a minor issue for sure. But Williams, Breland and Montgomery are getting worse, the tolerable dosage of Bentley is getting smaller every day and the star player everyone is supposed to compliment (if she even wants to come back to Atlanta) will be 33 going on 34 next year. Now, what mediocre (or worse) player will Dream trade its lottery pick for this time?


pilight



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PostPosted: 08/14/19 10:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
Gulich is a minor issue for sure. But Williams, Breland and Montgomery are getting worse, the tolerable dosage of Bentley is getting smaller every day and the star player everyone is supposed to compliment (if she even wants to come back to Atlanta) will be 33 going on 34 next year. Now, what mediocre (or worse) player will Dream trade its lottery pick for this time?


Montgomery was never good

If you don't think Angel can be the centerpiece of a championship team, then everybody can go. Start fresh with all new, young players. I think she's got another run in her if we can get the right pieces around her.



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Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 08/14/19 10:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Gulich is so far down the list of problems with the Dream that she's hardly worth mentioning, let alone spending half a game thread on.


My bad, I didn't know that I had to run my post through Dream Fan Triage first.

But alright, let's talk about a more urgent problem that y'all have: Tiffany Hayes. We can agree that y'all gotta get rid of her, right?



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uptochallenge



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PostPosted: 08/15/19 12:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Gulich is basically a rookie. She deserves more time to show what she can do. Williams on the other hand has shown what she can do and it's not enough. I don't think she is mean enough to play in this league. I was concerned about Coffee, but she seems to be developing a shot. I can't figure out Sykes. She scores 27 points in one game and then hardly plays in the next. She is talented, but often seems to lack motivation.

I think Angel is cored. Does that mean she has to agree to any trade?

Please don't even suggest that we trade our lottery pick. This is what has ruined this team.



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mavcarter
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PostPosted: 08/15/19 1:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

How many times has been McCoughtry been cored?



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Randy



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PostPosted: 08/15/19 2:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mavcarter wrote:
How many times has been McCoughtry been cored?


She was first cored in 2017 and then again in 2018 but in 2017 she didn't play. If Megdal is right she signed for 2 years in 2018, so my guess is that's 2 cores (18 and 19). I think Erika was cored in 2015 and the prior years.

https://www.wnba.com/player-movement-central-2016/

https://www.wnba.com/wnba-player-movement-central-2017/

https://www.wnba.com/wnba-player-movement-central-2018/


mavcarter
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PostPosted: 08/15/19 2:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
She was first cored in 2017 and then again in 2018 but in 2017 she didn't play. If Megdal is right she signed for 2 years in 2018, so my guess is that's 2 cores (18 and 19).


Thank you my good man. Cool



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Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 08/15/19 4:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

uptochallenge wrote:
Please don't even suggest that we trade our lottery pick. This is what has ruined this team.


So, even if you received assurances that she would play for y'all, you wouldn't trade y'all's lottery pick for Maya Moore?



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uptochallenge



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PostPosted: 08/15/19 9:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I would trade Angel for Maya Moore.



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Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 08/15/19 10:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'll bet you would, but why would Minnesota do that trade?



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uptochallenge



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PostPosted: 08/16/19 8:33 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
I'll bet you would, but why would Minnesota do that trade?


Because that trade was in motion until Angel got wind of it and axed it. That is why I asked if a cored player has to agree to a trade.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 08/16/19 11:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
But alright, let's talk about a more urgent problem that y'all have: Tiffany Hayes. We can agree that y'all gotta get rid of her, right?


We don't have to, but it's worth exploring. It would have been better to do it before the season, when her trade value was higher. We gotta get value back. Can't just give her to the Sun for free like we usually do.



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Randy



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PostPosted: 08/16/19 11:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

uptochallenge wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
I'll bet you would, but why would Minnesota do that trade?


Because that trade was in motion until Angel got wind of it and axed it. That is why I asked if a cored player has to agree to a trade.



That's a pretty explosive bit of news. I've not heard it before. Perhaps the Lynx fans know something about this.

I couldn't find it in the 300 page CBA but maybe you can. Kind of doesn't matter, players like Angel (or Maya for that matter) can always refuse to go anywhere they don't want to go.

https://wnbpa.com/cba/


Richyyy



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PostPosted: 08/16/19 12:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If you're cored and unsigned you'd have to agree to a trade, in the same way that the player has to agree to any sign-and-trade deal. Once you've signed a contract while under the core designation you become as tradeable as anyone else.

I heard rumblings about an Atlanta-Minnesota deal as well, presumably because that's where Maya grew up so if she was going to play anywhere, that'd be the place. Not sure if McCoughtry was ever likely to end up in Minnesota or if she was going to be re-routed to a third team, though.



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