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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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toad455
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 Posted: 07/17/19 4:32 pm ::: |
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| If Hartley & Zahui B are both suffering from exhaustion, why not give Han some decent minutes then at center? If Boyd & Durr are both out, Johannes should start with Wright at PG. The bright side for both Hartley & Zahui B is that they've been home since Monday, so hopefully they got some solid rest this week as they don't play until Saturday.
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LibFan25
Joined: 01 Sep 2012
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| Posted: 07/17/19 4:54 pm ::: |
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Durr being injured hurts, that's all who I care about. They minus well start tanking cuz that's an average of around 10pts a game we're losing if out for any period of time
We all know they ain't gonna do nothing to help themselves in the trade deadline or the waver wire
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toad455
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bluedevilaztecfan5
Joined: 16 Mar 2010
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| Posted: 07/19/19 6:24 pm ::: |
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https://www.wnba.com/news/liberty-all-star-kia-nurse-reaches-new-heights/
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| At 6’0”, Nurse uses a variety of hesitation moves to clear space. Her crafty footwork results in plenty of stumbling defenders, who can never be sure what move will come next — generating free-throw opportunities. Nurse’s 67 FTM on the season is third in the league, while she shoots 91.8 percent from the charity stripe. |
I love this added skill of getting to the line more this season! Hoping she helps us keep getting more Ws.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 07/20/19 4:27 pm ::: |
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I love Tina Charles. And statistics can be misleading, but these aren't.
New York has played 18 regular-season games, slightly more than half the season. With today's 1-13 from the field, her field-goal percentage for the season is now 36.0%. Her three-point percentage is 19.5%. These are disturbing numbers.
P.S. For 2018, Charles had a field-goal percentage of 47.3% and a three-point percentage of 32.6%. For 2017, she was 44.2% from the field and 34.8% from three-point range.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 07/20/19 5:00 pm ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
I love Tina Charles. And statistics can be misleading, but these aren't.
New York has played 18 regular-season games, slightly more than half the season. With today's 1-13 from the field, her field-goal percentage for the season is now 36.0%. Her three-point percentage is 19.5%. These are disturbing numbers. |
Out of 18 games, Charles has shot below 40% 11 times. Then consider all the turnovers committed by Tina or teammates trying to force the ball into her. You have to wonder how long New York can keep making her the focal point of their offense. If the Liberty were a company, you'd say they have a bad business model.
I give Tina credit for making some big foul shots at the end. However, she missed 12 field goals today on her way to 9 points. In contrast, Kia Nurse took a total of 3 shots while scoring 14 points.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 07/20/19 5:23 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
Out of 18 games, Charles has shot below 40% 11 times. Then consider all the turnovers committed by Tina or teammates trying to force the ball into her. You have to wonder how long New York can keep making her the focal point of their offense. If the Liberty were a company, you'd say they have a bad business model.
I give Tina credit for making some big foul shots at the end. However, she missed 12 field goals today on her way to 9 points. In contrast, Kia Nurse took a total of 3 shots while scoring 14 points. |
Absolutely right: New York needs to rethink the offense. But here we get back to the problem of Katie Smith being in a shaky spot as head coach. The team was awful in her first year. For 2019, they're currently a borderline playoff team. There's a new GM who might want his own selection to be head coach for 2020. It's not a great situation for Smith to go to her star and say: "Sorry, Tina, but we need to reconstruct the offense and reduce your very central role."
On the other matter, not enough is said about Nurse's ability to get to the free throw line. She's up with the league leaders in free throws attempted and made per game. It can seem like a little thing, but I believe that for many reasons it's great to have a player who adds this to her other skills.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 07/20/19 5:50 pm ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
Absolutely right: New York needs to rethink the offense. But here we get back to the problem of Katie Smith being in a shaky spot as head coach. The team was awful in her first year. For 2019, they're currently a borderline playoff team. There's a new GM who might want his own selection to be head coach for 2020. It's not a great situation for Smith to go to her star and say: "Sorry, Tina, but we need to reconstruct the offense and reduce your very central role."
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A while back, several of us stepped up and defended Tina when she was accused of being a selfish player. If we're right, then she shouldn't have a problem with Katie doing whatever is best for the team. Charles must know that she isn't playing well. It's not like she has an occasional bad shooting day. 11 out of 18 games shooting under 40% is the majority played so far. I'd be embarrassed if I were her. If Tina's main interest is winning games, then she should be open to change. I'm not saying this has to happen right away. But if the bad shooting continues and the team keeps losing, then at some point NY will simply run out of games to make the playoffs. Smith's job is going to be at risk anyway.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 07/20/19 6:04 pm ::: |
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[quote="root_thing") A while back, several of us stepped up and defended Tina when she was accused of being a selfish player. If we're right, then she shouldn't have a problem with Katie doing whatever is best for the team. Charles must know that she isn't playing well. It's not like she has an occasional bad shooting day. 11 out of 18 games shooting under 40% is the majority played so far. I'd be embarrassed if I were her. If Tina's main interest is winning games, then she should be open to change. I'm not saying this has to happen right away. But if the bad shooting continues and the team keeps losing, then at some point NY will simply run out of games to make the playoffs. Smith's job is going to be at risk anyway.[/quote]
I hope you're right. I thought it was wrong to accuse Tina Charles of being a selfish player. But over these 18 games she doesn't seem to have made any adjustment to her struggles. There are times when she's simply not looking to pass, even when double- or triple-teamed. And times when she shoots a 20-footer early in the shot clock. Perhaps she indeed feels embarrassed, as you would. But it can't be an easy adjustment for a longtime basketball star to say "I'm struggling so I need to shoot less and pass more."
Yes, Katie Smith's job will be at risk unless the Liberty have a very big run in the second half of the season. But you're not addressing a subjective factor. None of us know how Katie Smith feels about her job being at risk and how that may affect her decisions. It might (or might not) make it harder for her to make a bold coaching move.
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 07/20/19 6:09 pm ::: |
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| Smith also needs to take Tina out if she's not playing well. We were gifted her sitting in the first half due to foul trouble. But Smith and Charles need to know that she was just 1-13 today and the offense can't go through Tina as the #1 option anymore.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 07/20/19 7:52 pm ::: |
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I’m mixed on this. On one hand, I feel that the ball going through Tina to an extent gets Nurse open shots and at times opens the perimeter in general. But on the other hand, the stats are what they are. She’s 3-28 in her last two games. If you go back four games, I didn’t do the calculations but it’s pretty bad from a % standpoint. I think generally speaking we need to move away from such a low-post emphasis period. LA played 48 hours prior to this game. It didn’t seem to me they did post entry as much as we did. Tina is not physically what she was...not just years ago but even compared to the start of the season. She doesn’t get off the ground with any explosion whatsoever.
The thing is, you need ample practice time to make significant systemic changes. Which we are pretty much starting to have. To be clear, I’m not in any way disputing the need for changes. Just saying not sure how much time is needed to change some things. Plus, unfortunately, I think you have some mismatched parts for which system of play you choose. Johannes and Durr will benefit from wider floor spacing. Boyd hurts spacing. So does Gray. Gray also functions best inside. Zahui sometimes hurts spacing too.
I do know this much. Our offense does stagnate too often and Tina is showing signs of wear in the process. I think something has to give. I think at minimum Tina needs some games where she faces the basket a majority of the time. I feel like Bill did that at times by design. At least I think he did.
Oh and one thing. Please cut out the 15 foot fadeaways. They almost never go in.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 07/20/19 7:56 pm ::: |
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| Charles has been absolutely awful. The eye-test says it. Every basic and advanced stat says it (negative win shares, PER below replacement level, 4th-worst WARP in the entire league, hideous +/- at both ends). Unless you believe that teams are using their defensive energy primarily on her and that's still opening things up for teammates - and personally I don't see many teams bothering to double-team her any more - the Liberty would literally be better off if she didn't show up. It's not quite Alex Bentley in Atlanta, but it's not that far off at this point. |
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 07/20/19 7:57 pm ::: |
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| The last few games definitely not much in the way of doubles at all.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 07/20/19 8:01 pm ::: |
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| 1-9 even on shots in the paint today. Hard to fathom. At this point I think NY needs to find some type of balance between Tina being a 1A option and being THE option. It's not an easy balance. But I think Tina would be a lot more effective averaging around 14 ppg with higher efficiency. Eliminate some of the ridiculous shots that have no chance of going in like the one-legged fadeaways from 15 feet+ along with any shots contested to the point that degree of difficulty becomes high. Tina is not making the high degree of difficulty shots like she did last year and prior. So at least eliminate those. I'd take 14 ppg at a respectable shooting %.
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toad455
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| Posted: 07/20/19 9:11 pm ::: |
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| Tina has to know her game has declined this season. Our top offensive options should be Nurse, Johannes, Durr(when she returns) & Zahui B. But let's not completely put Tina in the doghouse. She has had 8 games scoring 20+ points. She still has IT, she's just not a consistent scorer anymore and is having her worse shooting season yet(37.3%).
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 07/20/19 9:28 pm ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
| Tina has to know her game has declined this season. Our top offensive options should be Nurse, Johannes, Durr(when she returns) & Zahui B. But let's not completely put Tina in the doghouse. She has had 8 games scoring 20+ points. She still has IT, she's just not a consistent scorer anymore and is having her worse shooting season yet(37.3%). |
Agree that a form of balance is needed. What nags at me is how many shots she misses near the rim. We are talking 5-7 foot hook shots that she used to make with ease. That’s a concern, not just for this year but beyond. Richyyy’s numbers don’t lie. Tina has never been “efficient” from a statistical standpoint but she was the focus of other team’s defenses to a great extent. She’s less of a focus for opponents this year but it seems like she’s free falling before our eyes in spite of that fact. Maybe she’s not 100% who knows. But if so, that’s also a concern because that would be 3 years in a row. I’d like for her to be still productive at age 32-33. Like a 13 point 7 rebound type of deal. Can I say I have faith in that type of longevity? Not even close. And I hate that this is the case in years we aren’t even close to being a contender.
She was shooting .505 inside of 6 feet coming into today. Last year from the same distance she shot .652. Is the explanation for that part losing something physically? Confidence? Fatigue? That’s a weird stat for a post player.
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toad455
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| Posted: 07/20/19 9:40 pm ::: |
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| Charles is only 30. Not like she's at the end of her career. But again, when her shots aren't falling she has to kick it out to her teammates. This also falls on Smith to tell her this and to pull her out of games if she's having an off game.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 07/20/19 9:49 pm ::: |
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As I've noted before, most people who play year-round (WNBA, overseas, and national team) usually take a year off to rejuvenate. Maybe Tina just needs a nice long rest. She has never had a serious injury of any kind, so there really is no reason for her body to be falling apart at age 30.
As for this year, I agree that a reduction in her role is all that is needed. Charles has impacted at least 3 wins during crunch time, so it's not like she's totally useless. The idea is to put less pressure on her, allow Tina to select better shots, and improve her efficiency. The old Tina is still in there somewhere. She just can't appear as often, and forcing the issue seems to make things worse. So, figure out a more effective way to use her.
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LibFan25
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| Posted: 07/20/19 10:16 pm ::: |
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I've been saying this for a years now, it has a lot to do with fatigue. I am not a stat guy I'm more of observe/watch type and then give my opinion on how I feel at the moment. But my guess correct me if I'm wrong she has to be doing between 32-35 mins a game. That's a lot of wear and tear on the body especially a post player, she usually breaks down this time around in August with back problems(stiffness/spasm). I completely understand why the Libs need her on the court, teams still has to respect her but I agree with everyone it's time to change up the offence and make Nurse/Durr/Johannes primary options
Johannes by the way only signed a 1 year deal, if I was the Libs i extend that please. Thank you. Lol
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 07/20/19 10:25 pm ::: |
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| LibFan25 wrote: |
I've been saying this for a years now, it has a lot to do with fatigue. I am not a stat guy I'm more of observe/watch type and then give my opinion on how I feel at the moment. But my guess correct me if I'm wrong she has to be doing between 32-35 mins a game. That's a lot of wear and tear on the body especially a post player, she usually breaks down this time around in August with back problems(stiffness/spasm). I completely understand why the Libs need her on the court, teams still has to respect her but I agree with everyone it's time to change up the offence and make Nurse/Durr/Johannes primary options
Johannes by the way only signed a 1 year deal, if I was the Libs i extend that please. Thank you. Lol |
MJ23 one-year deal. Is that from Megdal’s database? And yes extend her please.
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Richyyy
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| Posted: 07/20/19 10:43 pm ::: |
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| Barring big changes in the next CBA, Johannes would be Reserved when her contract expires anyway (can only negotiate with her existing team). It's a standard practice for undrafted foreigners with a halfway-competent agent to only sign for one year initially because that first deal can only be for the minimum. Once it expires you can sign for anything up to the max (although you obviously have competing threats - the team can say "you can't play in the WNBA for anyone else", the player can say "pay me what I'm worth or I'll just stay home"). |
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LibFan25
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| Posted: 07/21/19 5:37 am ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| LibFan25 wrote: |
I've been saying this for a years now, it has a lot to do with fatigue. I am not a stat guy I'm more of observe/watch type and then give my opinion on how I feel at the moment. But my guess correct me if I'm wrong she has to be doing between 32-35 mins a game. That's a lot of wear and tear on the body especially a post player, she usually breaks down this time around in August with back problems(stiffness/spasm). I completely understand why the Libs need her on the court, teams still has to respect her but I agree with everyone it's time to change up the offence and make Nurse/Durr/Johannes primary options
Johannes by the way only signed a 1 year deal, if I was the Libs i extend that please. Thank you. Lol |
MJ23 one-year deal. Is that from Megdal’s database? And yes extend her please. |
I think so, can't remember where I got it from but yeah she's soo smooth I think she can handle PG duties. She's not gonna be perfect but I've seen enuff where I can trust her.
Also to note, Nayo was good off the bench, so was Boyd. I think Boyd will benefit playing off the bench giving us a spark
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 07/21/19 8:01 am ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| Barring big changes in the next CBA, Johannes would be Reserved when her contract expires anyway (can only negotiate with her existing team). It's a standard practice for undrafted foreigners with a halfway-competent agent to only sign for one year initially because that first deal can only be for the minimum. Once it expires you can sign for anything up to the max (although you obviously have competing threats - the team can say "you can't play in the WNBA for anyone else", the player can say "pay me what I'm worth or I'll just stay home"). |
Which, with Hartley’s contract reportedly expiring (as per Megdal) and with Wright unsigned for next year, there’s money available to pay her what she’s worth. That leaves one question. Being an Olympic year, will she want to come over? There are some incentives. The potential of playing in Barclays along with the fact that NY has an appreciation for the flash that she can bring.
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toad455
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| Posted: 07/21/19 8:32 am ::: |
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i threw it in the game thread, but here's what I hope for the Liberty in 2020 in Brooklyn.
PG: Ionescu/Boyd
SG: Durr/Johannes
SF: Nurse/Allen/2nd round pick
PF: Charles/Gray/Raincock-Ekunwe
C: Zahui B/free agent
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