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UNC Staff Placed on Leave Amid Review of Program
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CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 05/07/19 10:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
CamrnCrz1974 wrote:

Except where the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools’ Commission on Colleges placed the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill on a year-long probationary period — the harshest sanction before revocation of accreditation.


Nothing but a face saving move by the Commission. Pretended to do something while everyone knew there was less than zero possibility of UNC ever losing its accreditation. None. Zero. Nada.


So now the Commission was pretending?

For a poster claiming (in another thread) that others did not know what Voepel and Cunningham knew and what information they had, this seems like a pretty big leap.

Irrespective of whether accreditation was in jeopardy, it met the Commission's standards for probation. Name another time a major university and a leading public university (in terms of academics) was placed on academic probation by the accrediting body.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 05/07/19 10:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:


So now the Commission was pretending?


What did you expect her to say to a reporter: "Well we had to make it look like we weren't completely useless so we gave them probation - a "sanction" that carries absolutely no penalty or consequences - for the shortest possible period of time. So yes, it was a meaningless symbolic slap on the wrist if you must know."

Have you thought for one second about the consequences of a loss of accreditation? Let's see, among many other things, new law school grads couldn't be admitted to the bar, other professionally licensed professions would be similarly unavailable, and hundreds of millions of dollars of research grants, contracts, federal grants, student financial aid, and the like would default and important research disrupted. There was never even a miniscule chance that was going to happen, and everyone knew it.

Tell me the last time a major research institution in this nation has had its accreditation revoked.

Btw, contributions to UNC rose dramatically in 2015, 16, 17, and 18 after the scandal became public. And applications for admission continued to rise to new record levels each year as they have for over 13 consecutive years. Yep, it obviously just destroyed the reputation of the school. Rolling Eyes Laughing

Also, BTW, in the past few years this same group has placed Louisville, Kentucky Wesleyan, Bethune-Cookman and the University of Tennessee at Martin on probation, among others. In 2016 alone it put 10 schools on probation. But the only schools that ever lose accreditation are tiny schools you've never heard of and the only reasons are financial failure or pathetically low graduation rates. (Like Mountain State U in WV with a 12% grad rate.)

Louisville's probation was in response to the Ky Governor's attempt to abolish the Board of Trustees and politicize governance of the university.

Both UNC and Louisville's probations were promptly lifted after one year.


CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 05/07/19 12:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
CamrnCrz1974 wrote:


So now the Commission was pretending?


What did you expect her to say to a reporter: "Well we had to make it look like we weren't completely useless so we gave them probation - a "sanction" that carries absolutely no penalty or consequences - for the shortest possible period of time. So yes, it was a meaningless symbolic slap on the wrist if you must know."


But why give them sanctions in the first place? Or are you claiming that the organization was "pretending" then as well?


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 05/07/19 12:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
CamrnCrz1974 wrote:


So now the Commission was pretending?


What did you expect her to say to a reporter: "Well we had to make it look like we weren't completely useless so we gave them probation - a "sanction" that carries absolutely no penalty or consequences - for the shortest possible period of time. So yes, it was a meaningless symbolic slap on the wrist if you must know."


But why give them sanctions in the first place? Or are you claiming that the organization was "pretending" then as well?


Because there was sufficient "noise" in the media that they couldn't sit on their hands and do nothing. They did the minimum slap on the wrist they could do to deflect criticism from themselves.

There's also in the past several years been hearings and other bloviating in Congress about the impotence of the accreditation organizations (focused entirely on grad rates and student loan default rates) and I`m sure they didn't want questions about UNC raised at the next hearing.

There were no consequences other than insignificant additional embarrassment to UNC.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 05/07/19 1:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Regardless of all this, and whether kids still want to go there ...

UNC is ethically and morally bankrupt, willing to sell its academic soul for success in athletics.

Again, there is such thing as honor, and the fact that UNC marches on, happy to pretend that its athletes are educated, is as damning a condemnation of the NCAA system as its most vocal critics could devise.



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CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 05/07/19 1:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
CamrnCrz1974 wrote:


So now the Commission was pretending?


What did you expect her to say to a reporter: "Well we had to make it look like we weren't completely useless so we gave them probation - a "sanction" that carries absolutely no penalty or consequences - for the shortest possible period of time. So yes, it was a meaningless symbolic slap on the wrist if you must know."


But why give them sanctions in the first place? Or are you claiming that the organization was "pretending" then as well?


Because there was sufficient "noise" in the media that they couldn't sit on their hands and do nothing. They did the minimum slap on the wrist they could do to deflect criticism from themselves.


Why not? The NCAA did.

You have used the word "pretend" (or a variation thereof) and made multiple assumptions. Again, for a poster claiming (in another thread) that others did not know what Voepel and Cunningham knew and what information they had, you have made multiple big leaps without any supporting facts or corroborating evidence.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 05/07/19 2:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Regardless of all this, and whether kids still want to go there ...

UNC is ethically and morally bankrupt, willing to sell its academic soul for success in athletics.

Again, there is such thing as honor, and the fact that UNC marches on, happy to pretend that its athletes are educated, is as damning a condemnation of the NCAA system as its most vocal critics could devise.


Come on. If there's anything it says about UNC academically it's that no one cared a bit about or paid any attention to what was happening in the African and Afro-American Studies department.

You notice this didn't and never would have happened in the business or science schools.

The number of teachers, administrators and students involved was insignificant in a 30,000 student university. It's not like it was devised by the Board of Trustees or University President. But for the involvement of football and MBB players, the incident would have passed with barely a notice. It was ESPN and the sports social media world (mostly rival fans) who made most of the noise, not the academic world which recognized how insignificant it all was and collectively yawned.

It's actually less corrupt than coaches taking millions in bribes to circumvent the admissions process. Lets yank the accreditations of Yale, Stanford, Georgetown and USC too while we're feeling all this phony indignation.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 05/07/19 2:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:


You have used the word "pretend" (or a variation thereof) and made multiple assumptions. Again, for a poster claiming (in another thread) that others did not know what Voepel and Cunningham knew and what information they had, you have made multiple big leaps without any supporting facts or corroborating evidence.


I notice you have ducked my questions to you. When you name the major research institutions that have ever had their accreditations revoked, then we can talk.

Until then it's you who needs to provide some facts to support the fanciful notion revocation was ever a remotely realistic outcome.


CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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Location: Phoenix


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PostPosted: 05/07/19 2:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
CamrnCrz1974 wrote:


You have used the word "pretend" (or a variation thereof) and made multiple assumptions. Again, for a poster claiming (in another thread) that others did not know what Voepel and Cunningham knew and what information they had, you have made multiple big leaps without any supporting facts or corroborating evidence.


I notice you have ducked my questions to you. When you name the major research institutions that have ever had their accreditations revoked, then we can talk.

Until then it's you who needs to provide some facts to support the fanciful notion revocation was ever a remotely realistic outcome.


You made the initial post, referencing "pretending."

You doubled down on a baseless, unsupported opinion that you have tried portraying as factual.

You got called out for claiming others had insufficient knowledge and information to make claims with respect to UNC's WBB hiring process, yet, in this thread, you have done the exact same things you accuse others of doing (only on a much broader scale, with entirely less foundation to do so).


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 05/07/19 5:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
CamrnCrz1974 wrote:


You have used the word "pretend" (or a variation thereof) and made multiple assumptions. Again, for a poster claiming (in another thread) that others did not know what Voepel and Cunningham knew and what information they had, you have made multiple big leaps without any supporting facts or corroborating evidence.


I notice you have ducked my questions to you. When you name the major research institutions that have ever had their accreditations revoked, then we can talk.

Until then it's you who needs to provide some facts to support the fanciful notion revocation was ever a remotely realistic outcome.


You made the initial post, referencing "pretending."

You doubled down on a baseless, unsupported opinion that you have tried portraying as factual.

You got called out for claiming others had insufficient knowledge and information to make claims with respect to UNC's WBB hiring process, yet, in this thread, you have done the exact same things you accuse others of doing (only on a much broader scale, with entirely less foundation to do so).


Obviously this conversation has run its course.

Funny thing is, I don't even particularly like UNC, especially its athletic programs. I just find the amount of hyperventilation and exaggeration here about the whole UNC fake class scandal to be laughable. Yes, it was shameful. But in the real world, except for the tiny number of people directly caught up in it who lost their jobs and reputations, it is of approximately zero consequence to the University as a whole. You can say basically the same thing about the admissions bribery scandal in terms of the impacts on the schools, except in the current scandal the consequences of federal felony convictions and real jail time for the involved individuals are a lot more serious than anything that happened to anyone at UNC.


CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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Location: Phoenix


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PostPosted: 05/07/19 5:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Funny thing is, I don't even particularly like UNC, especially its athletic programs. I just find the amount of hyperventilation and exaggeration here about the whole UNC fake class scandal to be laughable. Yes, it was shameful. But in the real world, except for the tiny number of people directly caught up in it who lost their jobs and reputations, it is of approximately zero consequence to the University as a whole.


On this, we agree.

UNC cheated and engaged in fraud for two decades, but it basically amounted to the equivalent of "So?" or "And?"

Yes, the school was put on probation by the accrediting body. But after years of NCAA investigations, UNC found a way to elude any sort of liability or responsibility, at least in terms of NCAA compliance or any real or tangible punishment of any sort, as an institution.


patsweetpat



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PostPosted: 05/07/19 6:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Regardless of all this, and whether kids still want to go there ...

UNC is ethically and morally bankrupt, willing to sell its academic soul for success in athletics.


I don't know why, but I always kind of enjoy when you go HAM on North Carolina, Clay. I feel like there's maybe a story behind it, and I hope to hear it someday.


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 05/07/19 11:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

patsweetpat wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Regardless of all this, and whether kids still want to go there ...

UNC is ethically and morally bankrupt, willing to sell its academic soul for success in athletics.


I don't know why, but I always kind of enjoy when you go HAM on North Carolina, Clay. I feel like there's maybe a story behind it, and I hope to hear it someday.


You've been here long enough to know THAT story, about UNC providing 'fake' classes for athletes, no? Arranged to meet their academic requirements in the least taxing ways....and the consequent investigations. At least, I *think* that's what Clay is basing his comments on.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 05/08/19 9:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Reactions like Art's -- which are justified insofar as athletic scandals are completely irrelevant to the larger university -- have been the default when it comes to intercollegiate athletics since the 1920s.

But the exploitation of these athletes goes hand-in-hand with this attitude, and as schools and the NCAA generate more and more income, supporters of the system as it exists have to dig their heads deeper and deeper into the sand to avoid looking at things as they actually are.

What makes UNC such a great window, and bright shining light, on all this is Rashard McCants graduating and saying he did so while functionally illiterate, and now the whole academic rigging issue that the NCAA and UNC pretty much completely ignored.

It's really clear: Big-time college athletics are a huge profit center for Power 5 universities, and those profits are based on the performance of workers who are not paid. The workers do not have to be students in any real sense, as UNC has shown (and of course UNC is not alone), just as athletics has no role in higher education except to generate donor support, ticket sales, etc.

I've always hated hypocrisy, and NCAA sports are pretty much the definition of hypocrisy, and along the way, they generate millions of dollars by exploiting young men and women who have no leverage.

That said, there are ways to reform the system and make it more equitable, but no steps can be taken without first acknowledging that the system is as corrupt as a kleptocratic dictatorship. And maybe we''re getting closer to that point, at long last.



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HomerCecil



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PostPosted: 05/08/19 3:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

His name is Rashad McCants, not Rashard. And he's said lots of things that other teammates haven't corroborated.

If UNC was such a terrible place for him to be--he's described it as a "prison"--I'd be curious to know why his sister, Rashanda, decided to enroll there three years after he did.


patsweetpat



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PostPosted: 05/09/19 7:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
patsweetpat wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Regardless of all this, and whether kids still want to go there ...

UNC is ethically and morally bankrupt, willing to sell its academic soul for success in athletics.


I don't know why, but I always kind of enjoy when you go HAM on North Carolina, Clay. I feel like there's maybe a story behind it, and I hope to hear it someday.


You've been here long enough to know THAT story, about UNC providing 'fake' classes for athletes, no? Arranged to meet their academic requirements in the least taxing ways....and the consequent investigations. At least, I *think* that's what Clay is basing his comments on.


Yeah, I do recall that news story, of course. Was just wondering if Clay, at some point, maybe had a more personal set-to with UNC (or if maybe someone he knows did). Sounds like nah.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 05/10/19 9:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

patsweetpat wrote:
Howee wrote:
patsweetpat wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Regardless of all this, and whether kids still want to go there ...

UNC is ethically and morally bankrupt, willing to sell its academic soul for success in athletics.


I don't know why, but I always kind of enjoy when you go HAM on North Carolina, Clay. I feel like there's maybe a story behind it, and I hope to hear it someday.


You've been here long enough to know THAT story, about UNC providing 'fake' classes for athletes, no? Arranged to meet their academic requirements in the least taxing ways....and the consequent investigations. At least, I *think* that's what Clay is basing his comments on.


Yeah, I do recall that news story, of course. Was just wondering if Clay, at some point, maybe had a more personal set-to with UNC (or if maybe someone he knows did). Sounds like nah.


I've never even been to North Carolina, and have no axe to grind. Now if you want to talk Ohio State or USC ...



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patsweetpat



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PostPosted: 05/12/19 10:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
patsweetpat wrote:
Howee wrote:
patsweetpat wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Regardless of all this, and whether kids still want to go there ...

UNC is ethically and morally bankrupt, willing to sell its academic soul for success in athletics.


I don't know why, but I always kind of enjoy when you go HAM on North Carolina, Clay. I feel like there's maybe a story behind it, and I hope to hear it someday.


You've been here long enough to know THAT story, about UNC providing 'fake' classes for athletes, no? Arranged to meet their academic requirements in the least taxing ways....and the consequent investigations. At least, I *think* that's what Clay is basing his comments on.


Yeah, I do recall that news story, of course. Was just wondering if Clay, at some point, maybe had a more personal set-to with UNC (or if maybe someone he knows did). Sounds like nah.


I've never even been to North Carolina, and have no axe to grind. Now if you want to talk Ohio State or USC ...


If there were an "I'm all ears" emoji, I'd be posting that now.


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