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ucbart



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 04/10/19 11:40 am    ::: Post season thoughts and questions Reply Reply with quote

I guess my "thoughts" are just one thing. It was a great season that ended terribly for everyone but Baylor. The tourney was great, the fan support was awesome, and as much as some don't want to hear this, I think the UCONN dominance from 2013-2016 made players want to beat UCONN and not go there as much. Now, we still have our fair share of amazing players, but the talent we had in those years was just so good that it was hard to compete. Now, people are going other places and it's great to see. Now, I just hope we get back to that level, or close to it at some point. I mean can you blame me?

Now for the questions:

*How much off time do the players that are still currently on rosters give themselves before they're back in the gym?
*Can coaches put together "informal yet informal" practices and such?
*Could Geno or Muffet give Phee, Lou, Arike, or Brianna a car the day after the season ended? How does that work?
*Do players get their classes wrapped earlier for them?


GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 04/10/19 12:01 pm    ::: Re: Post season thoughts and questions Reply Reply with quote

ucbart wrote:
Can coaches put together "informal yet informal" practices and such?


No. NCAA regs strictly limit the dates on which a coach can coach or even be on a basketball floor with players. Coaches have a few days after the last game, but they can't be coaching or be on the floor until sometime in October, usually around a school's media day.

However, the players themselves can voluntarily organize the equivalent of practices and scrimmages. At UConn, there's a long tradition of this, called captain's practices. They begin in the summer, for the players who are in summer school, and extend into October. I used to go to lots of them at Gampel years ago to watch the new recruits. Sometimes, the women's practices would be held in one of the tiny practice gyms in the old athletic building when the men's team or the volleyball team was practicing in Gampel. There, you literally could stand against the wall three feet from the players.

I agree that this past season was unpredictable, competitive and hence very interesting from a nonpartisan perspective.
Hoopsmom



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PostPosted: 04/10/19 12:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Actually, most teams are already back in the gym. You have to wait two weeks after your last game of the season, be at in a conference tournament or in a post season tournament. Then the coaches can be back on the floor with the girls, as our team currently is. Ours are only doing two weeks, due to finals coming up, but I know three weeks is common. Then, during the summer the coaches have a certain number of hours per week that they can be on the floor with the girls. It is very limited but they do coach. The girls organize captains practices several mornings per week in addition to working with the strength and conditioning coaches. They work until the end of July, take a few weeks in August off, and then start back with limited practice time again until the end of October.


BD22



Joined: 27 Nov 2016
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PostPosted: 04/11/19 9:11 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hoopsmom wrote:
Actually, most teams are already back in the gym. You have to wait two weeks after your last game of the season, be at in a conference tournament or in a post season tournament. Then the coaches can be back on the floor with the girls, as our team currently is. Ours are only doing two weeks, due to finals coming up, but I know three weeks is common. Then, during the summer the coaches have a certain number of hours per week that they can be on the floor with the girls. It is very limited but they do coach. The girls organize captains practices several mornings per week in addition to working with the strength and conditioning coaches. They work until the end of July, take a few weeks in August off, and then start back with limited practice time again until the end of October.


This is accurate. During the summer, you can practice up to 2 hours on the court, and all other info here is laid out correctly.


cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 04/11/19 9:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

well, it looks like we have divergent claims re practice?



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 04/11/19 10:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

In 2012 they adopted rules which now allow limited contact for up to 8 weeks for players in summer school which can include weight training as well as "skill-related instruction". Participation in such activities is limited to a maximum of eight hours per week with not more than four hours per week spent on skill-related instruction. No organized scrimmages or the like are permitted.



17.1.7.2.1.5.1 Basketball. In basketball, a student-athlete who is enrolled in summer school may engage in required weight-training, conditioning and skill-related instruction for up to eight weeks (not required to be consecutive weeks). A student-athlete who is enrolled in at least three degree-applicable (pursuant to Bylaw 14.4.3.1.7) credit hours in one summer term that is fewer than eight weeks in duration may engage in required weight-training, conditioning and skill-related instruction for up to eight weeks (not required to be consecutive weeks). Participation in such activities shall be limited to a maximum of eight hours per week with not more than four hours per week spent on skill-related instruction. (Adopted: 1/14/12, Revised: 1/19/13, 4/28/16, 4/25/18 )


By the way, another rule provides "In basketball, skill-related instruction shall not be publicized and shall not be conducted in view of a general public audience. "


GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 04/11/19 10:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
In 2012 they adopted rules which now allow limited contact for up to 8 weeks for players in summer school which can include weight training as well as "skill-related instruction". Participation in such activities is limited to a maximum of eight hours per week with not more than four hours per week spent on skill-related instruction. No organized scrimmages or the like are permitted.



17.1.7.2.1.5.1 Basketball. In basketball, a student-athlete who is enrolled in summer school may engage in required weight-training, conditioning and skill-related instruction for up to eight weeks (not required to be consecutive weeks). A student-athlete who is enrolled in at least three degree-applicable (pursuant to Bylaw 14.4.3.1.7) credit hours in one summer term that is fewer than eight weeks in duration may engage in required weight-training, conditioning and skill-related instruction for up to eight weeks (not required to be consecutive weeks). Participation in such activities shall be limited to a maximum of eight hours per week with not more than four hours per week spent on skill-related instruction. (Adopted: 1/14/12, Revised: 1/19/13, 4/28/16, 4/25/18 )


By the way, another rule provides "In basketball, skill-related instruction shall not be publicized and shall not be conducted in view of a general public audience. "


The NCAA bylaws are even more complicated that this if you want to get a complete picture.

Note that the rule Art cites applies only to players who are enrolled in summer school. Other rules kick in after summer school ends. In WCBB the first allowed on-court official coach practices begin 40 days before the first game. During the period before official practices but after after fall classes begin, Reg. 17.3.2.3 allows "Team conditioning or physical fitness activities supervised by coaching staff members . . . limited to eight hours per week", but the following Reg. specifically prohibits the coaching staff to do any of the following:

"(a) Setting up offensive or defensive alignments;
(b) Chalk talks;
(c) Discussions of game strategy;
(d) Reviewing game films or videotapes;
(e) Activities using basketball equipment; or
(f ) Observing student-athletes in any basketball activities even if such activities are not arranged by the institution’s coach."

Meanwhile, all during these periods the students can voluntarily engage in captain's practices, but per (f) above the coaches cannot even watch them.

There are exceptions to these rules for approved foreign travel sessions.

As to when the playing season ends, it looks like the WCBB end date is one week before the school's spring final exam period per Reg. 17.1.7.2(a), though I'm not sure what kind of coaching is allowed after the last actual game.

All these rules are often subject to obscure exceptions, tweaks and revisions. But the general rule, which is grossly summarized in my first post above, is that on-court full coaching practices, as allowed during the season, are not allowed after the season ends until the next October.
BD22



Joined: 27 Nov 2016
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PostPosted: 04/11/19 11:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
In 2012 they adopted rules which now allow limited contact for up to 8 weeks for players in summer school which can include weight training as well as "skill-related instruction". Participation in such activities is limited to a maximum of eight hours per week with not more than four hours per week spent on skill-related instruction. No organized scrimmages or the like are permitted.



17.1.7.2.1.5.1 Basketball. In basketball, a student-athlete who is enrolled in summer school may engage in required weight-training, conditioning and skill-related instruction for up to eight weeks (not required to be consecutive weeks). A student-athlete who is enrolled in at least three degree-applicable (pursuant to Bylaw 14.4.3.1.7) credit hours in one summer term that is fewer than eight weeks in duration may engage in required weight-training, conditioning and skill-related instruction for up to eight weeks (not required to be consecutive weeks). Participation in such activities shall be limited to a maximum of eight hours per week with not more than four hours per week spent on skill-related instruction. (Adopted: 1/14/12, Revised: 1/19/13, 4/28/16, 4/25/18 )


By the way, another rule provides "In basketball, skill-related instruction shall not be publicized and shall not be conducted in view of a general public audience. "


The NCAA bylaws are even more complicated that this if you want to get a complete picture.

Note that the rule Art cites applies only to players who are enrolled in summer school. Other rules kick in after summer school ends. In WCBB the first allowed on-court official coach practices begin 40 days before the first game. During the period before official practices but after after fall classes begin, Reg. 17.3.2.3 allows "Team conditioning or physical fitness activities supervised by coaching staff members . . . limited to eight hours per week", but the following Reg. specifically prohibits the coaching staff to do any of the following:

"(a) Setting up offensive or defensive alignments;
(b) Chalk talks;
(c) Discussions of game strategy;
(d) Reviewing game films or videotapes;
(e) Activities using basketball equipment; or
(f ) Observing student-athletes in any basketball activities even if such activities are not arranged by the institution’s coach."

Meanwhile, all during these periods the students can voluntarily engage in captain's practices, but per (f) above the coaches cannot even watch them.

There are exceptions to these rules for approved foreign travel sessions.

As to when the playing season ends, it looks like the WCBB end date is one week before the school's spring final exam period per Reg. 17.1.7.2(a), though I'm not sure what kind of coaching is allowed after the last actual game.

All these rules are often subject to obscure exceptions, tweaks and revisions. But the general rule, which is grossly summarized in my first post above, is that on-court full coaching practices, as allowed during the season, are not allowed after the season ends until the next October.


I’m honestly not trying to be a jerk, but that’s not true. If they choose, coaches can have full, on-court practices in the spring until the week before finals and summer.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying and if so, apologies.

And forgive my typo in my last reply (I said 2 hours); 4 hours of on court work is allowed during the summer.


GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 04/11/19 12:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

BD22 wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
In 2012 they adopted rules which now allow limited contact for up to 8 weeks for players in summer school which can include weight training as well as "skill-related instruction". Participation in such activities is limited to a maximum of eight hours per week with not more than four hours per week spent on skill-related instruction. No organized scrimmages or the like are permitted.



17.1.7.2.1.5.1 Basketball. In basketball, a student-athlete who is enrolled in summer school may engage in required weight-training, conditioning and skill-related instruction for up to eight weeks (not required to be consecutive weeks). A student-athlete who is enrolled in at least three degree-applicable (pursuant to Bylaw 14.4.3.1.7) credit hours in one summer term that is fewer than eight weeks in duration may engage in required weight-training, conditioning and skill-related instruction for up to eight weeks (not required to be consecutive weeks). Participation in such activities shall be limited to a maximum of eight hours per week with not more than four hours per week spent on skill-related instruction. (Adopted: 1/14/12, Revised: 1/19/13, 4/28/16, 4/25/18 )


By the way, another rule provides "In basketball, skill-related instruction shall not be publicized and shall not be conducted in view of a general public audience. "


The NCAA bylaws are even more complicated that this if you want to get a complete picture.

Note that the rule Art cites applies only to players who are enrolled in summer school. Other rules kick in after summer school ends. In WCBB the first allowed on-court official coach practices begin 40 days before the first game. During the period before official practices but after after fall classes begin, Reg. 17.3.2.3 allows "Team conditioning or physical fitness activities supervised by coaching staff members . . . limited to eight hours per week", but the following Reg. specifically prohibits the coaching staff to do any of the following:

"(a) Setting up offensive or defensive alignments;
(b) Chalk talks;
(c) Discussions of game strategy;
(d) Reviewing game films or videotapes;
(e) Activities using basketball equipment; or
(f ) Observing student-athletes in any basketball activities even if such activities are not arranged by the institution’s coach."

Meanwhile, all during these periods the students can voluntarily engage in captain's practices, but per (f) above the coaches cannot even watch them.

There are exceptions to these rules for approved foreign travel sessions.

As to when the playing season ends, it looks like the WCBB end date is one week before the school's spring final exam period per Reg. 17.1.7.2(a), though I'm not sure what kind of coaching is allowed after the last actual game.

All these rules are often subject to obscure exceptions, tweaks and revisions. But the general rule, which is grossly summarized in my first post above, is that on-court full coaching practices, as allowed during the season, are not allowed after the season ends until the next October.


I’m honestly not trying to be a jerk, but that’s not true. If they choose, coaches can have full, on-court practices in the spring until the week before finals and summer.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying and if so, apologies.

And forgive my typo in my last reply (I said 2 hours); 4 hours of on court work is allowed during the summer.


Not sure what you're misunderstanding, BD22, as the relevant NCAA Bylaws have been quoted or cited.

1. The team may hold some sort of practices (maybe full, I'm not sure) until the week before spring finals.

2. During an academic summer session, players who are enrolled in the summer session may be required to attend weight training and no more than four hours per week of "skill-related instruction", which is something less than in-season fully allowed coaching activity.

3. Between the end of summer session and the beginning of fall classes, I see nothing allowed. (Maybe I missed a regulation; very possible, there are so many.) (EDIT: i also see nothing allowed between the week before spring finals and the beginning of summer session.)

4. Between the beginning of fall classes and the start of official full practices in October, coaches can supervise "conditioning or physical fitness activities" for up to eight hours per week, but can't do anything listed in quoted paragraphs (a)-(f).

If you think any of this is wrong or incomplete, feel free to point out the relevant NCAA bylaws so we can all be sure.
BD22



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PostPosted: 04/11/19 1:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

“Skill related instruction” is any in court, basketball activity; that’s the misunderstanding it would seem. Most teams use that as individual or small group practice, but it is fully permit-able to use it as a full team practice.

You are correct that nothing is allowed between the end of summer and beginning of fall classes.


GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 04/11/19 1:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

BD22 wrote:
“Skill related instruction” is any in court, basketball activity; that’s the misunderstanding it would seem. Most teams use that as individual or small group practice, but it is fully permit-able to use it as a full team practice.

You are correct that nothing is allowed between the end of summer and beginning of fall classes.


Okay, that makes sense. You sound as if you have practical experience with the rules. Art Best and I are lawyers, so we tend to look immediately at the NCAA Bylaws, which are maddeningly long and complex, and often ambiguous and subject to differing interpretations.

I took the OP's question to be what kind of practices can be done in the off-season between the last game and the beginning of official practices in October. I knew the answer to that was complicated, different things being allowed, partially allowed or disallowed during different segments of the entire off-season. My first response was too general and probably misleading because I hadn't read the current Bylaws at the time I wrote it.

It was an interesting question, and perhaps we have the gist of it now sorted out.
BD22



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PostPosted: 04/11/19 1:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

No worries at all; good to talk it out. You and Art are smarter than me, believe me!

I coached college basketball for 5 years so you’re right in that I’ve had some experience with the rule, so just wanted to help clarify.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 04/11/19 2:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I was under the impression that there was a "size of group" limitation of 4 or 5 or something like that on these "skill-related instruction", but I don't have the time to try to find that at the moment, or I could be completely mistaken on this limitation.

I do recall the discussion when this began, though, that it was intended to allow for individual or small group instruction, and not for what you would normally consider a full blown practice. IIRC, it was originally limited to 2 hours/week of skills instruction, which has since been raised to 4.

This seems to be one of those all-too-common instances where the applicable NCAA rules are scattered all over the Bylaws making it very hard to ascertain the precise confines of the rules. That often happens when the "rule" is cobbled together over time through a series of amendments to other rules. It's also a situation where different sports have different rules on this subject, making it even more complicated (like some sports such as fencing and archery have "safety" exceptions that permit coaches to monitor voluntary workouts but not teach or coach or run workouts in offseason.)

The real breakthrough in 2012 was that they were permitting actual head coaches and assistant coaches to have actual teaching contact with players in the summer.


BD22



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PostPosted: 04/11/19 4:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I will say that I’ve never heard of anyone actually doing full team practices, so may very well be a moot point.


Hoopsmom



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PostPosted: 04/11/19 6:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I can confirm this because my daughter’s team is in full five day practice for two weeks right now. And several of her friends that play for other teams are doing the same. Per her coach’s comments about NCAA regulations, they waited until two weeks after their last NCAA tournament game and then started this week. They will practice next week, and then have the last week off before finals. They then get the month of May off, and come back after the first week in June because summer school starts. In addition to limited practices and strength workouts, They will also work at summer camps for the school during those first few weeks. This happened at her previous school as well.


Howee



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PostPosted: 04/11/19 10:02 pm    ::: Re: Post season thoughts and questions Reply Reply with quote

ucbart wrote:
I guess my "thoughts" are just one thing. It was a great season that ended terribly for everyone but Baylor.


Nooo! "Terribly"? Not at all, imo: Yes, Baylor won; biggest downer there was Cox's injury, but that's even not as bad as first feared.

Notre Dame? Made it all the way to the Championship game, proving last year's title was no fluke, AND they almost pulled this one out of the fire, too. That's NOT Terrible. Very Happy

UConn: After lots of doubts, they made it to the FF. I really didn't think they'd get there. That's NOT Terrible. Very Happy

Oregon: Got to the FF for the first time. Played the eventual winner closer than anybody else (at least while Cox was on the floor) AND is returning all starters. That's NOT Terrible. Very Happy

Several other teams had terrific runs: MO-St, Buffalo, SD-St, and UCLA come to mind.

ucbart wrote:
The tourney was great, the fan support was awesome....

Absolutely agreed....to me, it was one of the more entertaining tourneys in a long time. Very Happy



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PostPosted: 04/12/19 9:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Absolutely it was a good one. First one in awhile that I didn't turn off after the Final Four, which often has the most entertaining games but of late had ended in ways I didn't much enjoy.



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PostPosted: 04/12/19 12:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I agree. This year's tourney was far more interesting than the multi-year runs by Tenn or UConn, where the outcome was frequently a foregone conclusion. More parity near the top is a good thing for WCBB.


elsie



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PostPosted: 04/12/19 4:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

and don't forget oregon will get gifted with 4 home games in the tourney..


ClayK



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PostPosted: 04/13/19 10:11 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

elsie wrote:
and don't forget oregon will get gifted with 4 home games in the tourney..


Any program can get "gifted" with home games.

1) Be one of the best 16 teams in the country -- that gets you two. (Don't know how that's a gift, though ... at one point, you could buy home games by bidding high, but no longer.)

2) Submit a high bid to host a regional. In a way, that's a "gift," but it's more recognition that a local team has a strong program and is likely to advance to the regionals. If you're not a strong program, then a big arena probably won't bid.

And of course the same could be said about other programs ... you seem to have it in for Oregon, though. Any reason?



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