| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 3513
Back to top |
 Posted: 03/27/19 10:54 am ::: |
Reply  |
|
So the "Confidential Report" isn't confidential, and Kendra Davis, known for complaining about everything, didn't think MaChelle was abusive.
Following complaints like her cursing at players and throwing something at them, which are egregious if true, we get...
"One player stated that she felt "anxious" just by virtue of smelling Coach Joseph's perfume..."
"One player specifically identified Coach Joseph’s "intense" and "extreme" yelling as the cause of her feelings."
"player described "feeling lost mentally" during the time she was subject to increased scrutiny by Coach Joseph. Another player described being at "a breaking point" during her time under the microscope, and another reported feeling like she was going to have a panic attack."
The more I read, the more I think MaChelle may have done a few bad things, but she's getting railroaded by some whiny players and the school. It will be interesting to hear her response. Surprisingly, I didn't see any mention of any video of any of this, at a time when everyone takes videos of their breakfast cereal. The psychologist sounds like he needs to be investigated by the state licensing board.
Last edited by FrozenLVFan on 03/27/19 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7841
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/27/19 11:02 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
So the "Confidential Report" isn't confidential, and Kendra Davis, known for complaining about everything, didn't think MaChelle was abusive.
Following complaints like her cursing at players and throwing something at them, which are egregious if true, we get...
"One player stated that she felt "anxious" just by virtue of smelling Coach Joseph's perfume..."
"One player specifically identified Coach Joseph’s "intense" and "extreme" yelling as the cause of her feelings."
"player described "feeling lost mentally" during the time she was subject to increased scrutiny by Coach Joseph. Another player described being at "a breaking point" during her time under the microscope, and another reported feeling like she was going to have a panic attack."
The more I read, the more I think MaChelle may have done a few bad things, but she's getting railroaded by some whiny players and the school. It will be interesting to hear her response. Surprisingly, I didn't see any mention of any video of any of this, at time when everyone takes videos of their breakfast cereal. The psychologist sounds like he needs to be investigated by the state licensing board. |
This does sound like an awful railroad job. I don't know how she's going to answer it, though. Ga Tech has certainly done all it could to ruin her reputation. I hate to think what they'd have done to Pat Summitt.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
BD22
Joined: 27 Nov 2016
Posts: 70
Location: East
Back to top |
|
Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 10911
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/27/19 2:11 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| summertime blues wrote: |
| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
So the "Confidential Report" isn't confidential, and Kendra Davis, known for complaining about everything, didn't think MaChelle was abusive.
Following complaints like her cursing at players and throwing something at them, which are egregious if true, we get...
"One player stated that she felt "anxious" just by virtue of smelling Coach Joseph's perfume..."
"One player specifically identified Coach Joseph’s "intense" and "extreme" yelling as the cause of her feelings."
"player described "feeling lost mentally" during the time she was subject to increased scrutiny by Coach Joseph. Another player described being at "a breaking point" during her time under the microscope, and another reported feeling like she was going to have a panic attack."
The more I read, the more I think MaChelle may have done a few bad things, but she's getting railroaded by some whiny players and the school. It will be interesting to hear her response. Surprisingly, I didn't see any mention of any video of any of this, at time when everyone takes videos of their breakfast cereal. The psychologist sounds like he needs to be investigated by the state licensing board. |
This does sound like an awful railroad job. I don't know how she's going to answer it, though. Ga Tech has certainly done all it could to ruin her reputation. I hate to think what they'd have done to Pat Summitt. |
Two players quit the team so that something about the coach - doesn't just happen because they don't like the coaches perfume. My impression, however, is that coaches get away with all kinds of crap that no one would put with from their boss at regular job.
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66905
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
|
Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 10911
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/27/19 2:24 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I guess that's right. But doesn't excuse it.
It wouldn't surprise me in this case if both sides of this are right. Tech probably knew about how she treated players but didn't care - until she started making waves......
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7841
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/27/19 3:25 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Randy wrote: |
I guess that's right. But doesn't excuse it.
It wouldn't surprise me in this case if both sides of this are right. Tech probably knew about how she treated players but didn't care - until she started making waves...... |
And then they decided to completely ruin her reputation.
I don't have much use for Tech any more. My grandson, who received a full ride (academic) there and left after one semester, now describes the atmosphere there as "toxic". He couldn't even talk about it for a long time. He stayed out of school for a semester, then enrolled at Tennessee Tech, which is an equally good school (and a very well-kept secret) but he didn't want to talk about his experience at GT for quite awhile. He finally went to therapy for awhile when he realized it was hurting his personal relationships (though not his academic work, which remained stellar) and now is able to talk about what a toxic pressure-cooker the whole thing was. He was not favorably impressed. Neither are we.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
PRballer
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 2544
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/27/19 3:33 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
This sounds rather complicated and there are clearly two sides. On one hand, sounds like it’s just been a fraught relationship between coach and institution and it’s time to end. I also do believe in terms of Joseph and her track record, where there is smoke there is fire. There is baggage.
We are also not talking about the Tom Izzo of women’s basketball, to be clear. In her 16 seasons, she took the team to the Sweet 16 once and had a sub .500 conference record. They’ve not been to the NCAAs in five years. She recently recruited well but if we are to believe this report, she’s lost the current team.
I imagine there will be a settlement, she will take the upcoming season off, and then reappear as a mellowed out, senior assistant coach at a P5 program. Or given her ties to Indiana and her name in that state as a player, in some fashion she gets a mid-major Indiana job - assuming she still has ties there.
|
|
FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 3513
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/27/19 4:12 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| I'd like to hear from a bunch of her former players, not just the current group.
|
|
GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8227
Location: Heisenberg
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/27/19 4:44 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I've now read the entire 16-page Littler Investigation report, dated March 20, 2019, and the entire 13-page MaChelle Joseph Response, dated March 25. Both have redactions, mainly of names and of some events.
It's supposedly common that coaches yell, curse and hurt the feelings of some players upon occasion. Accepting that as a norm, the Littler Report asks whether Joseph's verbal conduct went beyond the norm of other coaches at GaTech and at other universities. Based on numerous player and staff interviews, the investigator concludes that the answer is a strong yes. He further concludes that Joseph's verbal conduct violated The University System of Georgia Ethics Policy, which prohibits unacceptable behavior in the workplace such as failing to treat "fellow employees [and] students . . . with dignity and respect."
However, what has always struck me as way beyond the norm in Josephgate is that two players, Kierra Fletcher and Francesca Pan, QUIT THE TEAM. The burning question is WHY.
I have reconstructed that Fletcher and Pan left the team between the February 24 Virginia game, where they appear in the box score, and the February 28 Miami game, where they don't.
Yet surprisingly to me, there is no mention of these quittings in the Littler Report, which interviewed all 13 players -- a number that has to include Fletcher and Pan -- and there is only a passing mention, partially redacted, in the Joseph Response. Nevertheless, it seems clear to me that these quittings must have been the final straw that provoked the Littler investigation, because the Littler Report says the firm was hired "on or about February 25" and that all interviews were conducted between February 26 and March 18.
To me, such such unprecedented and incontrovertible athlete conduct is a more damning fact against Joseph (and her assistants) than any of the controverted words that were (or weren't) uttered from Joseph's indisputably foul mouth. |
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/27/19 6:03 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| taropatch wrote: |
| Wow! After reading Glenn's last link, it appears the toxic atmosphere was as awful as Bobby Knight stuff without the physical abuse (choking, kicking, etc.) How this behavior was suppressed for 16 years is mind-boggling. I guess it was let the story blow up in their (GaTech's) face to avoid a mass mutiny? |
And what prompted you to vault over the Grand Canyon to reach the remarkable conclusion "this behavior was suppressed for 16 years"?
Since they ignored the 60 or more players from those previous years they don't have any idea whether any of those players ever had a problem with her. Nor, of course, do you.
But ignorance of the facts didn't slow you down for even a millisecond, did it?
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/27/19 6:08 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Randy wrote: |
| My impression, however, is that coaches get away with all kinds of crap that no one would put with from their boss at regular job. |
| Randy wrote: |
I guess that's right. But doesn't excuse it.
It wouldn't surprise me in this case if both sides of this are right. Tech probably knew about how she treated players but didn't care - until she started making waves...... |
And I dont know where you ever worked but I've seen plenty of appallingly abusive behavior in my days at various professional firms.
Welcome to the real world, where all is not butterflies and flowers and unicorns.
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7841
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
|
Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 10911
Back to top |
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7841
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/28/19 9:48 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| Randy wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
| My impression, however, is that coaches get away with all kinds of crap that no one would put with from their boss at regular job. |
| Randy wrote: |
I guess that's right. But doesn't excuse it.
It wouldn't surprise me in this case if both sides of this are right. Tech probably knew about how she treated players but didn't care - until she started making waves...... |
And I dont know where you ever worked but I've seen plenty of appallingly abusive behavior in my days at various professional firms.
Welcome to the real world, where all is not butterflies and flowers and unicorns. |
Again I am in agreement with Art...what, twice in 24 hours?  Seriously, it’s all over the place out there. I had two bosses in particular who would have made what Joseph is accused of look like preschool playground stuff (interestingly, both were later fired for destroying documents, but that’s neither here nor there). Randy must live in My Little Pony land. |
Nothing like getting personal about someone you know nothing about. Says more about you 2 than me. |
Not really, Randy. Just suggesting that maybe you haven't seen what we have, and that there is a LOT of abusive behavior in the workplace. I don't know what field you're in, but mine (from which I'm now retired), my late ex's, my brother's, and The Man's, all of which are quite different, are rife with it. Some of it is subtle. A lot of it isn't.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15737
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/28/19 11:23 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| summertime blues wrote: |
| Not really, Randy. Just suggesting that maybe you haven't seen what we have, and that there is a LOT of abusive behavior in the workplace. I don't know what field you're in, but mine (from which I'm now retired), my late ex's, my brother's, and The Man's, all of which are quite different, are rife with it. Some of it is subtle. A lot of it isn't. |
Yikes. I'm getting the implication here that, if *we* have had to experience $hit in our job settings, it excuses the phenomenon in general....?? Nuh-uh.
Yeah, shit happens. But a Coach/Player dynamic is something that should be held to a higher standard. And "abusive" is seldom (ever?) for "your own good".
I get the idea that a few players could be bitter about (whatever) and try to shanghai a coach (Yori, maybe?), and citing some 'unpleasantries' doesn't merit a canning. But still.
I'm not concerned enough about this particular situation to investigate every detail, but I think one observation is relevant: TRULY abusive coaches do not succeed in the long run. Was Bobby Knight a success? Renee Portland? They may have attained some measure of success in terms of records, championships, etc., but....in the end, their legacy is forever tarnished.
All that said, I hope everyone involved has the opportunity for THEIR truth to be heard.
_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7841
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/28/19 11:42 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| Howee, I *never* said anything excused abusive behavior in the workplace. I only said it's THERE....and it is, in spades. Now please stop putting words on my keyboard.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15737
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7841
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/28/19 1:28 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Howee wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| Howee, I *never* said anything excused abusive behavior in the workplace. I only said it's THERE....and it is, in spades. Now please stop putting words on my keyboard. |
"Never said"? I didn't say that you did, Touchy Thang. I AM saying the IMPLICATION is that All Workplaces have shitfulness going on, so we needn't be so delicate:
| summertime blues wrote: |
| ....but that’s neither here nor there). Randy must live in My Little Pony land. |
....and Randy's experience is somehow not as valid as yours, right? 
Sometimes it's a good idea to READ your post before you submit it, to comprehend how OTHERS might hear it. |
Which I did. I had actually said something quite different to start with and amended it considerably. Perhaps you ought to re-read what I did say. A number of people I am intimately connected to, in my age group and in different fields, have experience with abusive workplaces, some of which is subtle and some not. And It isn't at all uncommon, as the #MeToo movement (which, incidentally, only addresses *sexual* abuse) points out. I suspect, talking to younger peers in my field alone, that it is still more common than not. So perhaps someone who has not experienced it does live in a rather rarefied atmosphere. Of course, YMMV.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7841
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/28/19 1:42 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Not all abuse is screaming, shouting, name-calling, and what commonly goes under the heading of "bullying"> There is a lot of very sly, subtle stuff that is just as abusive and just as damaging. Women, sorry to say, are particularly bad at that sort of thing.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
ripleydc
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 4778
Location: Washington, DC
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/28/19 2:57 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Carol Anne wrote: |
| "There are a lot of questions still to be asked and answered. Again, this report gives no indication of whether there were consistent issues throughout MaChelle Joseph's career. |
I’ve been hearing about her egregious behavior towards staff and student athletes for years and years and years. The only thing that surprised me about her firing was that it didn’t happen sooner.
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66905
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
|
petrel
Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/02/19 12:39 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I guess the nukes have come out now:
Butler, first in a statement to an Atlanta TV station, said that in January 2002 — Joseph’s first year as an assistant — the team was on a road trip in North Carolina when Joseph invited her to her hotel room. It is not an unusual situation, as coaches sometimes talk privately with players about their performance.
However, Butler said that Joseph encroached on her personal space and then “touched me in a very inappropriate way on my outer thigh and my butt.” After rebuffing her, Butler said that Joseph told her that she would never play basketball at Georgia Tech again.
|
|
Youth Coach
Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 4760
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/02/19 1:20 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| petrel wrote: |
I guess the nukes have come out now:
Butler, first in a statement to an Atlanta TV station, said that in January 2002 — Joseph’s first year as an assistant — the team was on a road trip in North Carolina when Joseph invited her to her hotel room. It is not an unusual situation, as coaches sometimes talk privately with players about their performance.
However, Butler said that Joseph encroached on her personal space and then “touched me in a very inappropriate way on my outer thigh and my butt.” After rebuffing her, Butler said that Joseph told her that she would never play basketball at Georgia Tech again. |
If that last paragraph is true, that's an entirely different matter than the more common verbal abuse allegations you usually hear about. And entirely inappropriate.
My only question is while I get back then it might not have been in the player's best interests to report the situation, as time has passed and the whole MeToo thing has come about, why didn't they say something since the outings of shitty sexual behavior have become commonplace?
I'd guess there's a ton of these types of stories just sitting around waiting to come out into the open. First it was Hollywood, then the music world. I'd say it's a matter of time before it truly blows up into the sports world in the same kind of manner. |
|
petrel
Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/02/19 1:59 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Youth Coach wrote: |
If that last paragraph is true, that's an entirely different matter than the more common verbal abuse allegations you usually hear about. And entirely inappropriate.
My only question is while I get back then it might not have been in the player's best interests to report the situation, as time has passed and the whole MeToo thing has come about, why didn't they say something since the outings of shitty sexual behavior have become commonplace?
I'd guess there's a ton of these types of stories just sitting around waiting to come out into the open. First it was Hollywood, then the music world. I'd say it's a matter of time before it truly blows up into the sports world in the same kind of manner. |
Yeah, it does make me wonder why the article included the allegation. I understand there could be a legal statute of limitations but there isn't a moral one. In sexual abuse case I think that people have their own reasons for not coming out with the truth until a later date, and some quite justifiable.
Although it does make me wonder what sort of n-dimensional chess the AJC is playing here. It's a sort of "well-poisoning" that has the effect of tipping the reader's mental scales in favor of George Tech admin with regard to the other allegations of overall bad behavior - and you never know if that was entire point of including it.
"In addition, here's this person who worked for MaChelle Joseph claiming this horrible thing happened years ago, but the alleged victim's not pressing it in court." At least the AJC didn't lead the article with the allegation, which has the effect of forcing Joseph to sue for libel if she wants to get any vindication.
I concur completely that with #MeToo, a lot of things in WBB are going to be brought out into the open, now that the victimized feel less pressure or shame to say silent about them. That's a good thing, and I hope the changes that follow will be just as good.
|
|
|
|
