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myrtle



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PostPosted: 03/08/19 11:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
myrtle wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
canadaball wrote:
please name me one player in classes 1917-1923 (that is a 6 year period with thousands of players) who is of the quality of so many Hall of Famers like Swoopes, Leslie, Parker, DelaD, DT, Griner, Catchings, Maya, Fowles, Stewie and on and on.

I couldn't name you one player from that period period, let alone a good one.


you all are making great fun of my era! I am devastated. Evil or Very Mad


That would make you like 120 years old. Geez Myrtle, are you a vampire or something?


well...if you ask Howee... Twisted Evil
But yeah, class of 1920 was really the glory days for womens bball! Y'all ain't seen nothing like it!



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 03/08/19 11:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

For me, the Golden Era of Basketball ended when they stopped using peach baskets.



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canadaball



Joined: 24 May 2013
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PostPosted: 03/10/19 8:11 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Wooden Finalist ........... WNBA MVP's last 10 years
Kristine Anigwe ......... Taurasi
Kalani Brown ......... LJ
Bridget Carleton ........ Catchings
Chennedy Carter ....... Charles
Kaila Charles ....... Parker
Napheesa Collier ....... Moore
Sophie Cunningham ...... DelaD
Asia Durr ...... .... Neka
Megan Gustafson ...... Fowles
Sabrina Ionescu ...... Stewart
Teaira McCowan
Arike Ogunbowale
Katie Lou Samuelson
Jessica Shepard
Alanna Smith


Never in the history of the WNBA has the gap in talent between these 2 lists been greater. You could say Wilson in 2017 and 2018 added quality to the college list, but, even she has a long way to go. Now the talent level among the best in the NCAA has dropped off a cliff, with little hope for improvement over next 4 years.


root_thing



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PostPosted: 03/10/19 9:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LOL. You're comparing mostly one college class to ten years of pro MVP's. If you made this comparison in ANY SPORT, AT ANY TIME the college kids would lose.



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pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 03/10/19 9:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
LOL. You're comparing mostly one college class to ten years of pro MVP's. If you made this comparison in ANY SPORT, AT ANY TIME the college kids would lose.


More than 10. He's got players who graduated anywhere from 2001 to 2016, plus one who didn't even attend a US college.



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canadaball



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PostPosted: 03/10/19 11:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
root_thing wrote:
LOL. You're comparing mostly one college class to ten years of pro MVP's. If you made this comparison in ANY SPORT, AT ANY TIME the college kids would lose.


More than 10. He's got players who graduated anywhere from 2001 to 2016, plus one who didn't even attend a US college.


This year's Naismith list is an accurate.barometer of 4 years NCAA talent. From 2016 (Stewart's senior year), you can go back 20 years and every Naismith list would include multiple players of the quality of the W MVP's (sure they were in college at the time, but their talent was obvious, from Taurasi to Parker to Moore, and on and on). That is, obviously, no longer true.....and it is not even close.


ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 03/10/19 11:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

canadaball wrote:
pilight wrote:
root_thing wrote:
LOL. You're comparing mostly one college class to ten years of pro MVP's. If you made this comparison in ANY SPORT, AT ANY TIME the college kids would lose.


More than 10. He's got players who graduated anywhere from 2001 to 2016, plus one who didn't even attend a US college.


This year's Naismith list is an accurate.barometer of 4 years NCAA talent. From 2016 (Stewart's senior year), you can go back 20 years and every Naismith list would include multiple players of the quality of the W MVP's (sure they were in college at the time, but their talent was obvious, from Taurasi to Parker to Moore, and on and on). That is, obviously, no longer true.....and it is not even close.


An interesting point ...

So let's compare Naismith list to Naismith list. Does anyone have them year by year?



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pilight



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PostPosted: 03/10/19 12:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
canadaball wrote:
pilight wrote:
root_thing wrote:
LOL. You're comparing mostly one college class to ten years of pro MVP's. If you made this comparison in ANY SPORT, AT ANY TIME the college kids would lose.


More than 10. He's got players who graduated anywhere from 2001 to 2016, plus one who didn't even attend a US college.


This year's Naismith list is an accurate.barometer of 4 years NCAA talent. From 2016 (Stewart's senior year), you can go back 20 years and every Naismith list would include multiple players of the quality of the W MVP's (sure they were in college at the time, but their talent was obvious, from Taurasi to Parker to Moore, and on and on). That is, obviously, no longer true.....and it is not even close.


An interesting point ...

So let's compare Naismith list to Naismith list. Does anyone have them year by year?


The lists are in the NCAA WCBB Award manual

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/w_basketball_RB/2019/Awards.pdf

Most only list the finalists, four or five names. A few years in the early 2000s they went straight from the 12-15 player list to the winner.

Let's take one from the glory days of the 90's, right when the W and the ABL were starting:

1996 Jennifer Rizzotti, UConn; Saudia Roundtree, Georgia; Vickie Johnson, Louisiana Tech; Kate Starbird, Stanford; La’Keshia Frett, Georgia

Hmm, no Olympians, no future MVPs. There is one future All Star, Johnson. She's the only one of those to be a regular starter at the next level.

Let's move forward a decade or so:

2005 Seimone Augustus, LSU; Monique Currie, Duke; Jessica Davenport, Ohio St.; Sandora Irvin, TCU.

Still no MVPs. We do have an Olympian, Augustus, who is also the only All Star of the group.


There are better years, of course. Multiple MVPs is rare, only 2008 and 2010-12 have that. Even 2004, when they listed 20 finalists, only has one. We don't know what this year's class will accomplish yet.



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canadaball



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PostPosted: 03/10/19 12:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
canadaball wrote:
pilight wrote:
root_thing wrote:
LOL. You're comparing mostly one college class to ten years of pro MVP's. If you made this comparison in ANY SPORT, AT ANY TIME the college kids would lose.


More than 10. He's got players who graduated anywhere from 2001 to 2016, plus one who didn't even attend a US college.


This year's Naismith list is an accurate.barometer of 4 years NCAA talent. From 2016 (Stewart's senior year), you can go back 20 years and every Naismith list would include multiple players of the quality of the W MVP's (sure they were in college at the time, but their talent was obvious, from Taurasi to Parker to Moore, and on and on). That is, obviously, no longer true.....and it is not even close.


An interesting point ...

So let's compare Naismith list to Naismith list. Does anyone have them year by year?



I am not going to post all the lists, but just highlight names which give a good feeling for each year's snapshot of top NCAA players. I must note that I have been using 2016, Stewart''s a senior, as the last quality year, but on further review, her brilliance camouflaged a dropoff that started earlier. I put noteworthy non-mvp types in parentheses, and I was hard marker.

2016: Stewart, (Wilson)
2015: Stewart
2014: Stewart (Loyd, McBride)
2013: DelaD, Griner (Diggins, McBride)
2012: DelaD, Griner, Neka (Diggins)
2011: Griner, Maya, Neka (Diggins, Sloot)
2010: Charles, Maya, Neka
2009: Charles, Angel, Maya
2008: Fowles, Angel, Maya, Parker
2007: Fowles, Angel, Parker Note: Lindsay Harding winner does not obscure brilliance of 2007 group
2006: Parker (Augustus, Sophia Young, Pondexter)

Even if one can imagine some member of this year's list reaching parenthesis heights, and I think that is very, very doubtful, any fair reading gives a sense of the drop in MVP level quality. Look, the current NCAA games are entertaing and very competitive, but I, again, state that the golden age of women's college basketball, when it comes to pure, scintillating talent, is in the rear view mirror.


ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 03/10/19 1:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Interesting stuff ...

So from 2006-2016, it looks like this:

Class of 2006: 0 stars
2007: 0 stars
2008: Fowles, Parker
2009: McCoughtry
2010: Charles
2011: Moore
2012: Ogwumike
2013: EDD, Griner
2014: 0
2015: 0
2016: Stewart

First year by year, the zeroes in 2006 and 2007 were followed by six good years. There's no particular reason to believe the 06 and 07 were the beginning of a great decline, and I'm not sure you can say 14 and 15 will be either.

Second, we're looking at nine players in an 11-year span (off of the lists), which means there should be about one every year.

Looking at 2019, there are several players who might become stars (Durr, Ogunbowale, McCowan) though no sure things. But only one needs to come through, really.

Putting Ionescu and Young in the 2020 draft class, maybe one of them. Maybe not.

I do think the decline in participation at the youth level has impacted the quality of play to some degree, but I'm not sure this list makes that case.



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canadaball



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PostPosted: 03/10/19 2:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Interesting stuff ...

So from 2006-2016, it looks like this:

Class of 2006: 0 stars
2007: 0 stars
2008: Fowles, Parker
2009: McCoughtry
2010: Charles
2011: Moore
2012: Ogwumike
2013: EDD, Griner
2014: 0
2015: 0
2016: Stewart

First year by year, the zeroes in 2006 and 2007 were followed by six good years. There's no particular reason to believe the 06 and 07 were the beginning of a great decline, and I'm not sure you can say 14 and 15 will be either.

Second, we're looking at nine players in an 11-year span (off of the lists), which means there should be about one every year.

Looking at 2019, there are several players who might become stars (Durr, Ogunbowale, McCowan) though no sure things. But only one needs to come through, really.

Putting Ionescu and Young in the 2020 draft class, maybe one of them. Maybe not.

I do think the decline in participation at the youth level has impacted the quality of play to some degree, but I'm not sure this list makes that case.


OK the nine stars you highlight over 11 year period were mega-stud MVP types. The current junior and senior college players, you have listed might reach the status of the parenthesis types like Diggy, McBride, Pondester etc., but I cannot see any joining the 9 superstars.
I really like Durr, and consider her the most solid player in the draft. I think she will do well in the WNBA, but any team that drafts her will be super happy if she can play like Jewel Loyd; that would make her a great pick. I guess Arike, whom you also refer, could maybe fit that class, assuming the very best. My other point is that it is harder now to evaluate these college players b/c their college adversaries (the ones that guard them, and those they defend) are, imo, just so much lower than WNBA level. Last night I watched Sabrina dealing with guards that would never get past the first day of W training camps, and she was unimpressive. Similarly, McCowan is beating up on smaller, non-athletic bigs; something she won't get in the pros. I think that Durr could play vs, say Loyd or Tiff Hayes, but am questioning how Sabrina will do. Tell me this, in her statistically wonderful junior year, has S faced any guard who will be in the W, even at the end of bench? Same ? applies to McCowan, or K. Brown, for that matter.
Baseball is full of Triple A players, who put up huge stats, but fail in the major leagues b/c they can't hit big league pitching. Can players like Sabrina and McCowan "hit the curve"?


canadaball



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PostPosted: 03/10/19 6:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
ClayK wrote:
canadaball wrote:
pilight wrote:
root_thing wrote:
LOL. You're comparing mostly one college class to ten years of pro MVP's. If you made this comparison in ANY SPORT, AT ANY TIME the college kids would lose.


More than 10. He's got players who graduated anywhere from 2001 to 2016, plus one who didn't even attend a US college.


This year's Naismith list is an accurate.barometer of 4 years NCAA talent. From 2016 (Stewart's senior year), you can go back 20 years and every Naismith list would include multiple players of the quality of the W MVP's (sure they were in college at the time, but their talent was obvious, from Taurasi to Parker to Moore, and on and on). That is, obviously, no longer true.....and it is not even close.





An interesting point ...

So let's compare Naismith list to Naismith list. Does anyone have them year by year?


The lists are in the NCAA WCBB Award manual

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/w_basketball_RB/2019/Awards.pdf

Most only list the finalists, four or five names. A few years in the early 2000s they went straight from the 12-15 player list to the winner.

Let's take one from the glory days of the 90's, right when the W and the ABL were starting:

1996 Jennifer Rizzotti, UConn; Saudia Roundtree, Georgia; Vickie Johnson, Louisiana Tech; Kate Starbird, Stanford; La’Keshia Frett, Georgia

Hmm, no Olympians, no future MVPs. There is one future All Star, Johnson. She's the only one of those to be a regular starter at the next level.

Let's move forward a decade or so:

2005 Seimone Augustus, LSU; Monique Currie, Duke; Jessica Davenport, Ohio St.; Sandora Irvin, TCU.

Still no MVPs. We do have an Olympian, Augustus, who is also the only All Star of the group.


There are better years, of course. Multiple MVPs is rare, only 2008 and 2010-12 have that. Even 2004, when they listed 20 finalists, only has one. We don't know what this year's class will accomplish yet.



1996?????
History has shown we can see future MVP's years ahead. Let me go out on a limb.....There are no future MVP's on this year's Naismith list.....or 2020 or 2021 or 2022....Now hopefully there is someone still in high school.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 03/11/19 9:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Azzi Fudd.



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canadaball



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PostPosted: 03/11/19 11:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Azzi Fudd.


A high school sophomore....If correct, we can cross off 2023 and 2024 in the wait for the next transcendent talent....that would be something like an 8 year drought; pretty much a basketball generation.


WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 03/11/19 2:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

canadaball wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Azzi Fudd.


A high school sophomore....If correct, we can cross off 2023 and 2024 in the wait for the next transcendent talent....that would be something like an 8 year drought; pretty much a basketball generation.


Paige Bueckers , Chennedy Carter



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