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summertime blues



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PostPosted: 03/05/19 9:34 am    ::: And we complain about OUR referees!! Reply Reply with quote

This is a complete travesty. Both coaches and the scorekeepers agree that the main scorekeeper made a mistake, the girls were allowed to replay the last couple of seconds, and then the NEXT DAY the main scorekeeper's original mistake was upheld! That really stinks for all concerned. Smells like payoff to me. The "rules" need changing.
https://www.wric.com/news/virginia-news/season-ends-in-controversy-for-brunswick-academy-girls-basketball-our-girls-were-cheated-/1826622784



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PostPosted: 03/05/19 11:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This is as much on the scorekeepers. They should be constantly communicating the score. After every basket. The officials should know what is a correctable error and when it applies.

Here's what I found on scorekeepers responsibilities. Everything in parentheses is mine.

https://www.nfhs.org/media/1018426/2018_scorers_timers_sheets.pdf


Duties of scorekeepers (I'm going to take out some things that don't apply):

1. The nonofficial scorers (ie: the visiting team scorekeeper or a scorekeeper from both teams if the game wasn't at one of the two schools) should check each entry with the official scorebook.
2. The scorers should:
a. Announce to each other and record the total running score.
b. Announce the name and number of the player who scores.
c. Verify the scoreboard score.
3. In case of controversy, the record of the official scorebook is accepted unless the referee has knowledge which permits him or her to rule otherwise. (More on this later.)


Here's the later.

The officials knew that there was a mistake. Unfortunately, they didn't know it until after the scoreboard died. It all depends on when the error was discovered during the game. The article didn't really go into the entire sequence of events.

I didn't find an online version of the high school federation rules. Only found books to purchase. I did find this regarding correctable errors and again, I'm removing some things that don't apply.

https://www1.arbitersports.com/Groups/105990/Library/files/Correctable%20Errors%20Rule%202-10.pdf

Quote:
There are only five correctable errors under R2‐10 that may be corrected which are:

E. Erroneously counting or canceling a score

In order to correct any of the errors listed, the error must be recognized by an official during the first dead ball after the clock has started.


Let's go with this as an example:

The free throw by Middleburg Academy was counted as a make instead of a miss.

The player took a second free throw and made this one.

The ball is inbounded by Brunswick Academy and now becomes live.

MA deflects the ball out of bounds. Dead ball.

BA inbounds the ball again. Live ball.

Score board goes out. Dead ball.


In order to correct this error, it would have had to have been caught when MA deflected the ball out of bounds, or before BA inbounded it. As soon as BA inbounded the ball after the deflection, it was too late.

I don't know if this is close to what happened because the article didn't provide all of the info. If the scoreboard went out before the deflection in my example, then it should have been corrected at that time.

It sucks that it was something that had nothing to do with the players played such a role in determining the outcome of this game.

Finally, I think that the VISAA is going to have a little meeting with the BA AD to discuss his "our girls got cheated" comment.



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summertime blues



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PostPosted: 03/05/19 11:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

BAA DID get cheated. Definitely. And the rules are wrong. Dead wrong. The other refs/scorekeepers met with the main scorekeeper and pointed out his mistake. He allowed them to replay. It was his responsibility. HE screwed up.

VISAA cheated the girls and that's how I see it. YMMV.



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PostPosted: 03/05/19 11:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

summertime blues wrote:
BAA DID get cheated. Definitely. And the rules are wrong. Dead wrong. The other refs/scorekeepers met with the main scorekeeper and pointed out his mistake. He allowed them to replay. It was his responsibility. HE screwed up.

VISAA cheated the girls and that's how I see it. YMMV.



Which rules are wrong?



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calbearman76



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PostPosted: 03/05/19 12:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I agree that this was wrong. A scorekeeper makes a mistake in the book. It is one thing to correct the book according to a certain schedule if people are aware of the mistake. From what is reported it seems there was no reasonable way that the referees or either team would have known that the mistake was made. The issue of how the main scorekeeper and assistant scorekeepers for each team were communicating is in question, but that also raises the question of who was running the electronic scoreboard. Imagine the circumstance where a scorekeeper adds points to one team throughout the game incorrectly. No one is aware, but at the end of the game the score in the book reflects a different score from the true score.

What gets me is why, if both coaches and the refs agreed on the situation at the time, the administrators even got involved. And if the Middleburg Academy coach in fact agreed about the situation during the game I wonder why afterwards Middleburg would even accept the win. I also don't understand why the decision was to just play the last 2.3 seconds, because it sounds like the mistake was made sometime earlier. The scoreboard going out is a nice additional touch to add to the confusion.


Nixtreefan



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PostPosted: 03/05/19 12:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Refs are now being called out more with the use of social media. Their bad calls will become part of who they are. It will be interesting how they will be evaluated as this becomes the norm.



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summertime blues



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PostPosted: 03/05/19 12:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
I agree that this was wrong. A scorekeeper makes a mistake in the book. It is one thing to correct the book according to a certain schedule if people are aware of the mistake. From what is reported it seems there was no reasonable way that the referees or either team would have known that the mistake was made. The issue of how the main scorekeeper and assistant scorekeepers for each team were communicating is in question, but that also raises the question of who was running the electronic scoreboard. Imagine the circumstance where a scorekeeper adds points to one team throughout the game incorrectly. No one is aware, but at the end of the game the score in the book reflects a different score from the true score.

What gets me is why, if both coaches and the refs agreed on the situation at the time, the administrators even got involved. And if the Middleburg Academy coach in fact agreed about the situation during the game I wonder why afterwards Middleburg would even accept the win. I also don't understand why the decision was to just play the last 2.3 seconds, because it sounds like the mistake was made sometime earlier. The scoreboard going out is a nice additional touch to add to the confusion.



THAT is what I'm referring to.



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PostPosted: 03/30/19 10:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I just watched the Purdue men play UVA for a trip to the Final Four.

Purdue was up 2 with like 6-7 seconds left. UVA at the free throw line. Guy misses it, UVA's Diakite jumps up and swats the ball to the back court. UVA cleanly recovers the ball (I think the UVA player was the only one in the back court) and passes it back to the front court. They score sending the game to OT where Purdue loses.

Um, over and back anyone?



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Phil



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PostPosted: 03/31/19 7:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I remember that play.

I think the answer is that you can only have backcourt if your team has possession, and swatting at the ball doesn't constitute possession.


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PostPosted: 03/31/19 8:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Phil wrote:
I remember that play.

I think the answer is that you can only have backcourt if your team has possession, and swatting at the ball doesn't constitute possession.


If he had just stuck his hand up and the ball tipped off of it, I would agree with you. But he totally, IMO, controlled the ball when he made contact with it.

I just looked at the PBP and the stats people seem to agree with me.

Quote:
0:05 Ty Jerome missed Free Throw. 70 - 68
0:05 Mamadi Diakite Offensive Rebound. 70 - 68
0:01 Mamadi Diakite made Jumper. Assisted by Kihei Clark. 70 - 70



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willtalk



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PostPosted: 03/31/19 12:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ex-Ref wrote:
Phil wrote:
I remember that play.

I think the answer is that you can only have backcourt if your team has possession, and swatting at the ball doesn't constitute possession.


If he had just stuck his hand up and the ball tipped off of it, I would agree with you. But he totally, IMO, controlled the ball when he made contact with it.

I just looked at the PBP and the stats people seem to agree with me.

Quote:
0:05 Ty Jerome missed Free Throw. 70 - 68
0:05 Mamadi Diakite Offensive Rebound. 70 - 68
0:01 Mamadi Diakite made Jumper. Assisted by Kihei Clark. 70 - 70

When you knock a ball out of bounds that still does not count for as a possession or turn over in respect to the shot clock. Even if the out of bounds knock by the defender is directed and in control. Possession means having in in your hands or reasonable control on the dribble. If your interpretation of possession were true, than any defender hitting a ball out of bounds would have it counted as a steal and turn over against them. A Player blocking a shot out of bounds would also then be given a steal and and charged with a turn over. All of the situations mentioned also involve a person directing the ball and yet they are not considered a possession.

A rebound is a free ball until a team possesses it. Although sometimes they count a rebound for a person directing the ball to a team mate. How ever if another player gets possession then it is not a rebound and a turn over. Basically unless it is a tip directly to a team mate it is not a possession. Swatting the ball in a general direction is not counted as a possession even in respect to a rebound. It all depends. Now if his teammate was over the line and the player swatted the ball directly to them with out the player having to move then it might be considered a possession.

Score keepers are often very loose with their interpretations in respect to rebounds , steals, blocked shots and who a turnover should be attributed too. The generally have judgement leeway. How ever how they interpret a rebound does not take precedence over what an official decides is possession. As i previously stated if just controlling a ball towards a general direction constituted possession then it would open up a huge can of worms. Ultimately the decision is up to the referee's as are a lot of other calls. Their decision is not dictated by a specific rule in respect to a player swatting the ball. That is a judgement call.



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PostPosted: 03/31/19 1:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

"Possession" is one of those words that makes perfect sense until you really drill down (like a catch in the NFL).

Does it mean "control of the ball"? One would think, but if so what is the line between "control" and "not in control"? If I backtap a rebound away from my basket, is that control? Obviously, I was aiming it in a particular direction and it wasn't random -- but if I was just hitting it blindly and hoping a teammate would get it, then the idea of "control" gets a little fuzzy. But if I tap it directly to a teammate, then maybe I did have control -- but what if that was just luck that it went straight to someone? Would it make a difference if I looked at someone?

Now what if I'm jumping out of bounds for a rebound in frontcourt and I turn in the air and aim at an opponent's feet -- but I miss. I had enough "control" to aim the ball, but aimed it poorly, so does that mean if a teammate picks it up in backcourt it's a violation?

Definitions almost always get fuzzy at the periphery -- the world is a fuzzy place.



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calbearman76



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PostPosted: 03/31/19 9:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Clearly a tip is not possession, and I have never seen it ruled as such. Other situations, such as when a player gets both hands on the ball as he is jumping out of bounds and then throws it back into play are less clear. Indeed there should be a clearer definition of possession in several instances, but I would suggest that two hands on the ball and both feet on the ground should be necessary, unless there is uncontested possession. This doesn't just affect backcourt violations but also the shot clock ability to call time out and a few other things. I suspect there is already guidance (such as requiring an individual to have their feet in bounds to call a time out.


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PostPosted: 04/06/19 7:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Somebody's wanting UVA to win!!!!!

They benefit from ANOTHER missed call!!!

Should have been a double dribble at the end.



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Genero36



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PostPosted: 04/06/19 7:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Complete and utter BULLSHIT!!!!!

This is why these end of game fouls are rarely called in the NBA when literally there’s only moments left in the game.

It’s literally the refs playing God & helping indicate possibly an opposite outcome.

Virginia basically got rewarded for playing like crap after being up 10 with 5 minutes to go.

All Auburn fans should be pissed off right now.

However, it is nice to see Coon Barkley hold back the tears.



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PostPosted: 04/06/19 8:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Genero36 wrote:
Complete and utter BULLSHIT!!!!!

This is why these end of game fouls are rarely called in the NBA when literally there’s only moments left in the game.

It’s literally the refs playing God & helping indicate possibly an opposite outcome.

Virginia basically got rewarded for playing like crap after being up 10 with 5 minutes to go.

All Auburn fans should be pissed off right now.

However, it is nice to see Coon Barkley hold back the tears.



What's bullshit is NOT making a call that is there.

Wouldn't the ref be 'playing god' if he didn't make the call.


Now, if Auburn fans want to be pissed, be pissed about the double dribble.

The foul call was good.



And I'm not sure what is going on with your Barkley reference, so I'll let others handle that.



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Genero36



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PostPosted: 04/06/19 8:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It was a clear foul at the end, but it shouldn't have ever had the opportunity to happen because there was an even more clear and undebatable double dribble on Virginia. If they make that call, it's Auburn's ball with something like 3 seconds left and, at worst, they are shooting a 1-and-1.

I can understand fans not automatically knowing that this is the call that should be made in the moment. But officials need to automatically realize it. So they missed that call and then made, yes, a ballsy call against Auburn at the end. Auburn got hard done by, as they might say in the UK.

As for my Barkley reference, that wasn't for you to understand. That was for people of color who've had to deal with his bullshit to understand.



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PostPosted: 04/06/19 8:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fans are so accustomed to double-dribbles going uncalled they didn't weren't even surprised



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