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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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 Posted: 03/02/19 5:28 pm ::: |
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| Davis4632 wrote: |
| One point that is missing from this discussion about Holly, is that her teams have progressively gotten worse from season to season. |
Well, that's just not true. Let's 'grab' a coupla seasons:
11/12: 27-9 (Pat's last season)
12/13: 27-8
13/14: 29-6
14/15: 30-6
15/16: 22-14
16/17: 20-12
17/18: 25-8
The above seasons refute the "Progressively gotten worse" theory.
Pat's 96/97 season: 29-10! Not as good as Holly's 2013-15 seasons!  Oh, yeah....Pat DID win a national championship that year, but....still. 
What's the Big Difference? OUR GAME HAS GROWN TREMENDOUS DEPTH AND PARITY IN THE LAST 20 YEARS, AND EVEN PAT, IF SHE WERE ALIVE AND WELL TODAY, COULD NO LONGER SUSTAIN THE GOLDEN ERA AT TENNESSEE, I'M AFRAID TO TELL YA. Ask Geno.
| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| Unfortunately, I also doubt they'll be able to hire anyone who's going to do a whole lot better in the immediate future, which is what the fans are demanding. |
Ain't it The Truth, Ruth!?
Ask ANY "FAB"/proven/amazing ('outside') coach: "Could/would YOU be willing to step in and take over for Geno/Tara/Muff/Kim, and maintain that same quality of program, guaranteed, if they'd bequeath their team to you?" How many raised hands might you count?
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 03/03/19 11:32 am ::: |
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These are great points about Warlick, and have made me reconsider.
I think part of the general perception, mine included, is that Tennessee has underperformed relative to its talent level, but those win totals are pretty impressive.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 03/03/19 11:36 am ::: |
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| Tennessee's tournament results have gotten progressively worse under Warlick, and that's what matters to most LV fans
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 03/03/19 11:51 am ::: |
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| I'm too lazy to look it up but what about SEC results? I can't imagine they have had a shittier SEC win-loss than this year...and this year is a 'down' year for the SEC. You can wrap up a lot of wins if you play nobody OOC. This year they played Stanford and Texas and that was it.
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If only we’re brave enough to be it.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 03/03/19 12:19 pm ::: |
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| myrtle wrote: |
| I'm too lazy to look it up but what about SEC results? I can't imagine they have had a shittier SEC win-loss than this year...and this year is a 'down' year for the SEC. You can wrap up a lot of wins if you play nobody OOC. This year they played Stanford and Texas and that was it. |
And Clemson, Okla State, and Notre Dame. Tenn went 3-2 in those 5 games, not overly impressive but not a cupcake OOC schedule either.
This year will be their worst SEC record. The previous three years were also among their worst four years.
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Davis4632
Joined: 14 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 03/03/19 1:33 pm ::: |
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2012–13 Tennessee 27–8 14–2 1st NCAA Elite Eight SEC Regular Season Champ
2013–14 Tennessee 29–6 13–3 T-2nd NCAA Sweet Sixteen SEC Tournament Champ
2014–15 Tennessee 30–6 15–1 T-1st NCAA Elite Eight SEC Regular Season Champ
2015–16 Tennessee 22–14 8–8 T-7th NCAA Elite Eight
2016–17 Tennessee 20–12 10–6 5th NCAA Round of 32
2017–18 Tennessee 25–8 11–5 T-4th NCAA Round of 32
2018-19 Tennessee 17-11 6-9 9th
Some people will see a glass half full and others may see the glass as being half empty.
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Ay Mate
Joined: 12 Nov 2016
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| Posted: 03/03/19 1:46 pm ::: |
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| Davis4632 wrote: |
2012–13 Tennessee 27–8 14–2 1st NCAA Elite Eight SEC Regular Season Champ
2013–14 Tennessee 29–6 13–3 T-2nd NCAA Sweet Sixteen SEC Tournament Champ
2014–15 Tennessee 30–6 15–1 T-1st NCAA Elite Eight SEC Regular Season Champ
2015–16 Tennessee 22–14 8–8 T-7th NCAA Elite Eight
2016–17 Tennessee 20–12 10–6 5th NCAA Round of 32
2017–18 Tennessee 25–8 11–5 T-4th NCAA Round of 32
2018-19 Tennessee 17-11 6-9 9th
Some people will see a glass half full and others may see the glass as being half empty. |
I see the glass completely empty. With the recruits she’s getting, Warlick should have been fired after last season. Total inept coaching. This team will never be a power team again until they fire the deadweight and get serious about finding someone who actually knows what they are doing. Same thing will happen to Uconn after Auriemma retires, but I predict it’ll be even worse at Uconn because of the conference they are in. Tennessee still attracts highend recruits because they are in the competitive SEC. Uconn has already completely lost its recruiting edge because they are in the AAC.
All good things come to end. It might not be a great thing for Tennessee and Uconn fans, but it’s good for the sport in general and good for other schools.
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Ay Mate
Joined: 12 Nov 2016
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| Posted: 03/03/19 2:00 pm ::: |
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| Davis4632 wrote: |
2012–13 Tennessee 27–8 14–2 1st NCAA Elite Eight SEC Regular Season Champ
2013–14 Tennessee 29–6 13–3 T-2nd NCAA Sweet Sixteen SEC Tournament Champ
2014–15 Tennessee 30–6 15–1 T-1st NCAA Elite Eight SEC Regular Season Champ
2015–16 Tennessee 22–14 8–8 T-7th NCAA Elite Eight
2016–17 Tennessee 20–12 10–6 5th NCAA Round of 32
2017–18 Tennessee 25–8 11–5 T-4th NCAA Round of 32
2018-19 Tennessee 17-11 6-9 9th
Some people will see a glass half full and others may see the glass as being half empty. |
I see the glass completely empty. With the recruits she’s getting, Warlick should have been fired after last season. Total inept coaching. This team will never be a power team again until they fire the deadweight and get serious about finding someone who actually knows what they are doing. Same thing will happen to Uconn after Auriemma retires, but I predict it’ll be even worse at Uconn because of the conference they are in. Tennessee still attracts highend recruits because they are in the competitive SEC. Uconn has already completely lost its recruiting edge because they are in the AAC.
All good things come to end. It might not be a great thing for Tennessee and Uconn fans, but it’s good for the sport in general and good for other schools.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 03/03/19 8:15 pm ::: |
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| I doubt very much that CHW will be "fired." She will be allowed to "retire." Regardless of her half-full, half-empty results over the past few years, she's given 30 years of hard work to her alma mater, including the difficult years of Pat's decline. Few AD's would be classless enough to kick her in the *** on her way out the door.
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 2819
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: 03/03/19 9:39 pm ::: |
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| I don't think what happened in Bloomington today helped the situation in West Lafayette.
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Richard 77
Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 4140
Location: Lake Mills, Wisconsin
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| Posted: 03/03/19 10:35 pm ::: |
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How many years will Wisconsin give Jonathan Tsipis? I don't think he's turning things around here._________________ If you cannot inspire yourself to read a book about women's basketball, or any book about women's sports, you cannot inspire any young girl or boy to write a book about them. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Richardstrek |
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
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Location: Indiana
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| Posted: 03/03/19 10:44 pm ::: |
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| Richard 77 wrote: |
| How many years will Wisconsin give Jonathan Tsipis? I don't think he's turning things around here. |
That was already addressed in this thread. He is getting things going.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7822
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 03/03/19 11:00 pm ::: |
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| Richard 77 wrote: |
| How many years will Wisconsin give Jonathan Tsipis? I don't think he's turning things around here. |
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe he’s only in his third year, he’s getting some better recruits, and he’s not in the basement. Also, his home winning record is 10-6 and overall he’s 13-17, which isn’t that shabby when you’re trying to claw your way out of the hole the program was allowed to get into. It depends a lot on the AD, but I kind of get the impression that WBB isn’t a priority at my alma mater. If Alvarez is still the AD he’s going to let him have more time, mostly because it’s not a big priority. Three years is in no way enough time to turn a program around.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 03/03/19 11:15 pm ::: |
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| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| I doubt very much that CHW will be "fired." She will be allowed to "retire." Regardless of her half-full, half-empty results over the past few years, she's given 30 years of hard work to her alma mater, including the difficult years of Pat's decline. Few AD's would be classless enough to kick her in the *** on her way out the door. |
So I will ask you Howee's question one more time:
Ask ANY "FAB"/proven/amazing ('outside') coach: "Could/would YOU be willing to step in and take over for Geno/Tara/Muff/Kim, and maintain that same quality of program, guaranteed, if they'd bequeath their team to you?" How many raised hands might you count?
You think you hear the fans bitching NOW? Wait till the next one.
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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Marquette Fan
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
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| Posted: 03/03/19 11:26 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| Richard 77 wrote: |
| How many years will Wisconsin give Jonathan Tsipis? I don't think he's turning things around here. |
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe he’s only in his third year, he’s getting some better recruits, and he’s not in the basement. Also, his home winning record is 10-6 and overall he’s 13-17, which isn’t that shabby when you’re trying to claw your way out of the hole the program was allowed to get into. It depends a lot on the AD, but I kind of get the impression that WBB isn’t a priority at my alma mater. If Alvarez is still the AD he’s going to let him have more time, mostly because it’s not a big priority. Three years is in no way enough time to turn a program around. |
Yeah Alvarez is still AD and yeah Women's Bball is probably not going to be a priority for him. I also think 3 years isn't enough time and there's nothing to say someone else you got in could really get things going quickly - you might be worse off if you fire him.
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Phil
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 03/04/19 10:26 am ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| I doubt very much that CHW will be "fired." She will be allowed to "retire." Regardless of her half-full, half-empty results over the past few years, she's given 30 years of hard work to her alma mater, including the difficult years of Pat's decline. Few AD's would be classless enough to kick her in the *** on her way out the door. |
So I will ask you Howee's question one more time:
Ask ANY "FAB"/proven/amazing ('outside') coach: "Could/would YOU be willing to step in and take over for Geno/Tara/Muff/Kim, and maintain that same quality of program, guaranteed, if they'd bequeath their team to you?" How many raised hands might you count?
You think you hear the fans bitching NOW? Wait till the next one. |
I agree. It's not going to be pretty at any of those programs. That said, Baylor may not belong with the others - only because I don't sense a deep seated commitment to wbb.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 03/04/19 10:54 am ::: |
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| Phil wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| I doubt very much that CHW will be "fired." She will be allowed to "retire." Regardless of her half-full, half-empty results over the past few years, she's given 30 years of hard work to her alma mater, including the difficult years of Pat's decline. Few AD's would be classless enough to kick her in the *** on her way out the door. |
So I will ask you Howee's question one more time:
Ask ANY "FAB"/proven/amazing ('outside') coach: "Could/would YOU be willing to step in and take over for Geno/Tara/Muff/Kim, and maintain that same quality of program, guaranteed, if they'd bequeath their team to you?" How many raised hands might you count?
You think you hear the fans bitching NOW? Wait till the next one. |
I agree. It's not going to be pretty at any of those programs. That said, Baylor may not belong with the others - only because I don't sense a deep seated commitment to wbb. |
I dunno. I think as long as Kim is there and doing well....and anyway, isn't she a Texas gal, with family all down there?
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 03/04/19 11:14 am ::: |
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Looking at Warlick's record from the outside with no bias about the talent level, one would assume that though she's kept the program relevant, the dropoff is real.
Still, it really hasn't been a huge dropoff until this year, though the early losses in the tournament the past couple years certainly don't make fans happy.
From his perspective, if she wants to stay one more year, she should be allowed to -- and if she rights the ship either in this postseason or next year's regular season, then she's probably earned the right to stay.
On the other hand, those with Ay Mate's point of view (which certainly can be justified) can legitimately claim that this is an underachieving program and just needs a boost in coaching to reclaim past glory.
I would opt for letting her finish her contract and retire, unless lightning strikes and the LVs return to glory.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 03/04/19 12:22 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| I doubt very much that CHW will be "fired." She will be allowed to "retire." Regardless of her half-full, half-empty results over the past few years, she's given 30 years of hard work to her alma mater, including the difficult years of Pat's decline. Few AD's would be classless enough to kick her in the *** on her way out the door. |
So I will ask you Howee's question one more time:
Ask ANY "FAB"/proven/amazing ('outside') coach: "Could/would YOU be willing to step in and take over for Geno/Tara/Muff/Kim, and maintain that same quality of program, guaranteed, if they'd bequeath their team to you?" How many raised hands might you count?
You think you hear the fans bitching NOW? Wait till the next one. |
If you'll re-read my previous posts, you'll see I was asking similar questions about a replacement for CHW who can be expected to do any better, because I don't see a likely prospect myself.
| ClayK wrote: |
Looking at Warlick's record from the outside with no bias about the talent level, one would assume that though she's kept the program relevant, the dropoff is real.
Still, it really hasn't been a huge dropoff until this year, though the early losses in the tournament the past couple years certainly don't make fans happy.
From his perspective, if she wants to stay one more year, she should be allowed to -- and if she rights the ship either in this postseason or next year's regular season, then she's probably earned the right to stay.
On the other hand, those with Ay Mate's point of view (which certainly can be justified) can legitimately claim that this is an underachieving program and just needs a boost in coaching to reclaim past glory.
I would opt for letting her finish her contract and retire, unless lightning strikes and the LVs return to glory. |
Is this year's dropoff mitigated by the fact that 7/9's of the players being used are freshmen and sophomores? What is a realistic expectation? And before anyone starts citing McD's AA accolades and how Holly isn't coaching them adequately, look at the other McD AA players from last year, and see how many of them are tearing up the courts for their respective teams. And note that Davis and Westbrook are near the top of their McD class as regards scoring, and in rpg and apg, respectively.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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Location: Heisenberg
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| Posted: 03/04/19 12:35 pm ::: |
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| Kim Mulkey is a Louisiana girl -- born, raised, high school, college, and coach at LaTech from college to 2000: her first 38 years. |
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ArtBest23
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 03/04/19 1:00 pm ::: |
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Holly's record surely disappoints the spoiled former legions of The Legend, but it's darn good by objective measures. The average coach, by mathematical definition, has a .500 record.
For all her loyalty, service and pride in being a Lady Vol forever, I think it would be personally very difficult for the competitive Holly to admit defeat and quit.
If she does leave, I don't think any of the other big name coaches would leave their currently successful programs to try to resuscitate a bygone era.
Rather than looking for a person with no coaching experience, or a mediocre head coach at a prominent D1 school, or just about any assistant coach, I think UTK should consider a highly successful and proven recruiter at a mid-major (like a Graves) or at lower divisions (like a Rueck). |
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 03/04/19 1:27 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
Looking at Warlick's record from the outside with no bias about the talent level, one would assume that though she's kept the program relevant, the dropoff is real.
Still, it really hasn't been a huge dropoff until this year, though the early losses in the tournament the past couple years certainly don't make fans happy.
From his perspective, if she wants to stay one more year, she should be allowed to -- and if she rights the ship either in this postseason or next year's regular season, then she's probably earned the right to stay.
On the other hand, those with Ay Mate's point of view (which certainly can be justified) can legitimately claim that this is an underachieving program and just needs a boost in coaching to reclaim past glory.
I would opt for letting her finish her contract and retire, unless lightning strikes and the LVs return to glory. |
I pretty much agree with this... Although one of the problems with letting a program go too deeply into the morass is that then recruiting also becomes affected. Fewer top recruits (and their parents) want to go to a program with obvious problems. And the spiral just continues on a downward trajectory.
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For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15733
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 03/04/19 1:30 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| I understand that it's more convenenient to dismiss as "outsiders " and "haters" anyone who states the obvious about Warlick's mess and to call them names, but that's not so easy when Kara Lawson has become increasingly critical and the local paper is calling for her ouster. |
"Convenient" may be the operative word here: it's also been very convenient to assassinate Holly, without regard to the context of her situation.
And it's most convenient to 'forget' something else: Pat was already losing her grip on national supremacy before her demise. The 'Parker' years were her last hurrah.
Yeah, it's not too hard to pick apart Holly's shortcomings. But I also think it's misguided to place ALL blame directly on her shoulders; she very willingly stepped into a not-so-obvious-at-the-time Hot Mess with optimism and faith. If nothing else, Holly was always a tough competitor and a loyal protégé. When you've been raised within "The Legacy", you're blind to the objective reality that all Glory Days are behind you.
Can TN become the proverbial Phoenix, rising from the ashes? I'm not convinced they're even IN the ash heap yet, but....maybe just remaining in the top half of the SEC is the most realistic expectation. I'd love to be proven wrong.
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"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
Last edited by Howee on 03/04/19 1:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 03/04/19 1:31 pm ::: |
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I haven't read that article, but John Adams is pretty much an idiot. He's a commentator who has a long history of criticizing the Lady Vols without knowing much about the team, took over LV coverage earlier this season when the paper cut the position of the long-time staffer who covered the LV's, and has been agitating for CHW's firing all season. Fulmer may take all that with a grain of salt.
Lawson, OTOH, sits on the university's Board of Trustees and is obviously someone whose opinion is respected. I'd bet she and Fulmer have talked.
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