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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9609
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 Posted: 11/18/16 3:26 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| But Mexico is overwhelmingly the preferred starting point for drug runners and illegal workers. |
Gosh, that's much more dangerous than terrorists. |
It causes more harm than terrorists, so we should be more concerned with it.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15734
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 11/19/16 1:39 am ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| ....and apologized to Latino groups for saying the phrase "illegal immigrant", even though it was in the context of how much she was going to help them. |
tfan, I don't know you personally, but I address all Americans like you with one blanket statement: Get OFF your fu*cking High Horse about "Illegal Immigration".
If you, like the vast majority of Americans complaining about it, are of European descent, YOU are the offspring of "Illegal Immigrants". The English, Spanish, and all Euros who rapaciously took this land from its original people, The Natives, were illegal in every sense of the word. I don't care if it wasn't codified then: what was done was wrong from every moral angle conceivable, every bit as "wrong" as what immigrants may be accused of doing now, if not even more reprehensible: illegal Mexicans aren't starting their own governments and deciding you all must go live on a reservation.
This moral contradiction is NOT absolved by the passage of time, dude: YOU didn't kill any Indians? YOU didn't bring any slaves over? Well, your great-great-grandparents DID. Or they lived in/prospered in a society that BENEFITTED from the economic boon of having a slave force, or bought cheap land that was conveniently cleared of Natives by genocide.
Our country isn't the most Fabulous, Prosperous and Strongest one in the world because we've all been Good, Rightous People: we've gained so much of our prosperity off the backs of slavery here, and off the backs of subjugated people abroad. We've amassed so much wealth from hogging resources that came from outside our boundaries. Yet, now we have some moral high ground to keep "illegal immigrants" out?
Yes, there are problems associated with immigrant influx. THERE ALWAYS HAVE BEEN, depending upon which group you were IN.... the current residents or the interlopers. But I am sick of the "illegal immigrant" mantra as one we've somehow been burdened with, as a new social phenomenon.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 11/19/16 1:54 am ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ....and apologized to Latino groups for saying the phrase "illegal immigrant", even though it was in the context of how much she was going to help them. |
tfan, I don't know you personally, but I address all Americans like you with one blanket statement: Get OFF your fu*cking High Horse about "Illegal Immigration". |
Right back at ya - get OFF your fu*cking High Horse about "undocumented immigrants". Just because the media decided to eliminate "illegal" from their speech and print doesn't make "undocumented" the correct term and "illegal" an incorrect one. There's a law. If you don't feel the law is necessary or correct - call for the law to be changed.. Don't be like the millions of Americans who like the law, but also like when it is broken and refuse to acknowledge that it is broken. Think about it - all those "undocumented" folks never call for the law to be changed. They never ask for an open border with Mexico. They apparently want more people from Mexico - but want them as illegal workers so they can be paid illegal wages. You don't like the accurate term "illegal immigrant" and yet I would bet you have never in your life called for an open border with Mexico so that term would become inaccurate.
| Quote: |
If you, like the vast majority of Americans complaining about it, are of European descent, YOU are the offspring of "Illegal Immigrants". The English, Spanish, and all Euros who rapaciously took this land from its original people,
The Natives, were illegal in every sense of the word. I don't care if it wasn't codified then: what was done was wrong from every moral angle conceivable, every bit as "wrong" as what immigrants may be accused of doing now, if not even more reprehensible: illegal Mexicans aren't starting their own governments and deciding you all must go live on a reservation.
This moral contradiction is NOT absolved by the passage of time, dude: YOU didn't kill any Indians? YOU didn't bring any slaves over? Well, your great-great-grandparents DID. Or they lived in/prospered in a society that BENEFITED from the economic boon of having a slave force, or bought cheap land that was conveniently cleared of Natives by genocide.
Our country isn't the most Fabulous, Prosperous and Strongest one in the world because we've all been Good, Righteous People: we've gained so much of our prosperity off the backs of slavery here, and off the backs of subjugated people abroad. We've amassed so much wealth from hogging resources that came from outside our boundaries. Yet, now we have some moral high ground to keep "illegal immigrants" out? |
I personally prefer justification of immigration as self-punishment or permanent charity due to past sins of some Americans' ancestors, versus "keeping a tradition" or claims about how much benefit it brings.
| Quote: |
| Yes, there are problems associated with immigrant influx. THERE ALWAYS HAVE BEEN, depending upon which group you were IN.... the current residents or the interlopers. But I am sick of the "illegal immigrant" mantra as one we've somehow been burdened with, as a new social phenomenon. |
Wouldn't you agree that if it is OK for you to complain about complaints, then it is OK for us to complain about something that can have a huge negative impact on the lives of Americans? The worst hit are those at the bottom of the American employment ladder. People with substance abuse problems, old people, physically slow people, mentally slow people, people with workplace interaction issues, mentally ill people. In the past there was much more demand for their services -for the least desirable jobs that there weren't sufficient good workers for. But now, with illegal immigration, not so much. They are pushed right out of the workforce. So when you feel warm about how some Mexican has a higher standard of living because they came here illegally, remember that there are Americans who got pushed out of the workforce, were forced to work part time, or were paid a lot less than they otherwise would have been - giving them a lower standard of living. It isn't a victim-less crime. there is a reason for the law. It seems so "inclusive" to embrace illegal foreign workers, but that also requires you be "exclusive" to American workers.
And there are so many illegal immigrants that they now take good jobs that would have gone to average workers in the past. They even take jobs that used to be at the top of the blue collar echelon: there are over a million illegal construction workers.
There are also a number of reasons why more people is a bad thing and we are already burdened with the sacred cow of infinite legal immigration.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15734
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 11/20/16 2:01 am ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ....and apologized to Latino groups for saying the phrase "illegal immigrant", even though it was in the context of how much she was going to help them. |
tfan, I don't know you personally, but I address all Americans like you with one blanket statement: Get OFF your fu*cking High Horse about "Illegal Immigration". |
Right back at ya - get OFF your fu*cking High Horse about "undocumented immigrants". Just because the media decided to eliminate "illegal" from their speech and print doesn't make "undocumented" the correct term and "illegal" an incorrect one. There's a law |
 I can't get "OFF" something I've never been "ON", unlike you; you haven't heard me screeching over and over about this. "Law"? Of course! it's written by all the "original" illegal immigrants--"We took what we wanted, created our nation, now all you late-to-the-party mother-fu*kers stay out!".
| tfan wrote: |
| .....You don't like the accurate term "illegal immigrant" and yet I would bet you have never in your life called for an open border with Mexico so that term would become inaccurate. |
Bet me. I most certainly WOULD. I grew up near the Canadian Border and remember the days of going back and forth freely. That's not today's reality.
| tfan wrote: |
Wouldn't you agree that if it is OK for you to complain about complaints, then it is OK for us to complain about something that can have a huge negative impact on the lives of Americans? The worst hit are those at the bottom of the American employment ladder. People with substance abuse problems, old people, physically slow people, mentally slow people, people with workplace interaction issues, mentally ill people. In the past there was much more demand for their services -for the least desirable jobs that there weren't sufficient good workers for. But now, with illegal immigration, not so much. They are pushed right out of the workforce. So when you feel warm about how some Mexican has a higher standard of living because they came here illegally, remember that there are Americans who got pushed out of the workforce, were forced to work part time, or were paid a lot less than they otherwise would have been - giving them a lower standard of living. It isn't a victim-less crime. there is a reason for the law. It seems so "inclusive" to embrace illegal foreign workers, but that also requires you be "exclusive" to American workers.
And there are so many illegal immigrants that they now take good jobs that would have gone to average workers in the past. They even take jobs that used to be at the top of the blue collar echelon: there are over a million illegal construction workers.
There are also a number of reasons why more people is a bad thing and we are already burdened with the sacred cow of infinite legal immigration. |
No, I don't agree with all the above. Here where I live in the Northeast, Mexicans (mostly) do the migrant farm labor NOBODY else wants to do or can do. They work for abysmal pay and live in crappy conditions. IFF there are over a million illegal construction workers (and I'm not sure I believe that) but even if there were....how can they compete with able-bodied, capable eager Americans that really want those same jobs? Something's not right with that picture.
And--after all is said and done--my biggest beef with this argument is that, in the grand scheme of All Things That Need To Be Fixed, it's not even in the top 5. Congress' corrupted relationship with Corporate America/Lobbyists tops the list, but by politicians dangling the red meat of things like illegal immigration to distract The People away from IMPORTANT things, the red meat becomes our focus du jour.
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"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 11/20/16 12:02 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ....and apologized to Latino groups for saying the phrase "illegal immigrant", even though it was in the context of how much she was going to help them. |
tfan, I don't know you personally, but I address all Americans like you with one blanket statement: Get OFF your fu*cking High Horse about "Illegal Immigration". |
Right back at ya - get OFF your fu*cking High Horse about "undocumented immigrants". Just because the media decided to eliminate "illegal" from their speech and print doesn't make "undocumented" the correct term and "illegal" an incorrect one. There's a law |
I can't get "OFF" something I've never been "ON", unlike you; you haven't heard me screeching over and over about this. "Law"? Of course! it's written by all the "original" illegal immigrants--"We took what we wanted, created our nation, now all you late-to-the-party mother-fu*kers stay out!". |
But you took umbrage at me saying "illegal immigrant", and in the post where I used it I was referring to Clinton saying it. That's right, Hillary Clinton said "illegal immigrant" and only apologized when some Latino leaders complained. So you have to be an "undocumented immigrant" guy, whether or not you have ever posted it here. This has nothing to do with "staying out". The country embraces infinite immigration so much it is a sacred cow. But there is an infinite quota set to limit the damage it does.
| Quote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| .....You don't like the accurate term "illegal immigrant" and yet I would bet you have never in your life called for an open border with Mexico so that term would become inaccurate. |
Bet me. I most certainly WOULD. I grew up near the Canadian Border and remember the days of going back and forth freely. That's not today's reality. |
I said Mexican border, not Canadian border. There was a poll done that found 1/3 of Mexico would like to emigrate to the US. If the Mexican border was open it wouldn't be "going back and forth freely", it would be 40 million people going one way.
| Quote: |
| tfan wrote: |
Wouldn't you agree that if it is OK for you to complain about complaints, then it is OK for us to complain about something that can have a huge negative impact on the lives of Americans? The worst hit are those at the bottom of the American employment ladder. People with substance abuse problems, old people, physically slow people, mentally slow people, people with workplace interaction issues, mentally ill people. In the past there was much more demand for their services -for the least desirable jobs that there weren't sufficient good workers for. But now, with illegal immigration, not so much. They are pushed right out of the workforce. So when you feel warm about how some Mexican has a higher standard of living because they came here illegally, remember that there are Americans who got pushed out of the workforce, were forced to work part time, or were paid a lot less than they otherwise would have been - giving them a lower standard of living. It isn't a victim-less crime. there is a reason for the law. It seems so "inclusive" to embrace illegal foreign workers, but that also requires you be "exclusive" to American workers.
And there are so many illegal immigrants that they now take good jobs that would have gone to average workers in the past. They even take jobs that used to be at the top of the blue collar echelon: there are over a million illegal construction workers.
There are also a number of reasons why more people is a bad thing and we are already burdened with the sacred cow of infinite legal immigration. |
No, I don't agree with all the above. Here where I live in the Northeast, Mexicans (mostly) do the migrant farm labor NOBODY else wants to do or can do.
They work for abysmal pay and live in crappy conditions. |
Because they are illegal workers. You could pay legal workers good pay under good conditions. Have you ever thought of advocating that? You think Americans wouldn't pick crops for 50 bucks an hour (and probably a lot less than that)? Or do you, like most Americans, prefer to save a little on your fruit and vegetables by paying illegal workers low wages?
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IFF there are over a million illegal construction workers (and I'm not sure I believe that) but even if there were....how can they compete with able-bodied, capable eager Americans that really want those same jobs? Something's not right with that picture. |
The amount of illegal workers in the construction and other industries was given in a recent Washington Post article. Employers, and that includes construction employers, want young hard working workers who don't ask for much, either in wages or working conditions. Illegal workers fit that bill. to the detriment of legal workers. All it takes for illegal workers to compete with legal workers is for the employers to ignore the law and for the government to not enforce it. I saw an interview with the former Mayor of Atlanta, Andrew Young, who was touring the Atlanta Olympic Village. He noticed a lot of Spanish speaking workers and questioned whether they were here illegally. He laughed as he said that he was told that "don't worry about it they are some of our best workers". So the black mayor of a city with a lot of black people was cool with Mexicans taking construction jobs when he finds out that they are good workers.
| Quote: |
| And--after all is said and done--my biggest beef with this argument is that, in the grand scheme of All Things That Need To Be Fixed, it's not even in the top 5. Congress' corrupted relationship with Corporate America/Lobbyists tops the list, but by politicians dangling the red meat of things like illegal immigration to distract The People away from IMPORTANT things, the red meat becomes our focus du jour. |
Like I said to justintyme, the only thing you have to do to "fix" illegal immigration is enforce the law. Go to places of employment (I think they don't have to give at least a day's notice anymore) and ask for proof their workers are legal and if they aren't, fine or imprison the employer. It's not complicated, it only takes the will to do it. Right now, as Chris Matthews pointed out to Rachel Maddow on MSNBC, the powers that be like the status quo.
And it is a huge thing to the people hurting the most in America - the ones who struggle to get and hold jobs. If you look at a graph of inflation-adjusted wages for different categories, people with no high school degree are going down over the last 3 or 4 decades and the people with no college degree are going sideways at best. Competition from illegal workers (and infinite illegal immigration and job export) is suppressing their wages. Bernie Sanders was constantly talking about income inequality, and he acknowledged that open borders would drive wages to $2 or $3 an hour, but he couldn't acknowledge the harm of infinite immigration as it is a sacred cow or of illegal immigration as it is a semi-sacred cow.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8225
Location: Heisenberg
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| Posted: 11/20/16 1:44 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
Mexicans (mostly) do the migrant farm labor NOBODY else wants to do or can do. They work for abysmal pay and live in crappy conditions. |
To the extent that's true, isn't this economic system the functional equivalent of slavery? Employers ("massahs") bring in minorities from other countries to do manual labor at sub-market rates, who have no rights as citizens ("3/5 of a person").
Why would anyone want to perpetuate such an exploitative system, which is illegal under current law and which prevents American citizens from getting those same jobs at market rate wages?
It's no answer to say that the Mexican's are voluntarily participating in this illegal economic scheme. I suspect that if we had polls in the 1700's and early 1800's, the black slaves would have voluntarily stayed in the U.S. rather than return to the African jungles, where they were equally subject to slavery and much worse, including tribal genocide.
This quasi-slavery aspect of illegal immigration is immoral as well as being economically devastating to lower skilled American citizens and legal immigrants.
And that's only part of the total destructive effects of illegal immigration. I won't go into it, but there are gigantic social welfare costs to an American society drowning in a $20 trillion national debt, as well as cultural concerns and criminal/immigration law costs. |
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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| Posted: 02/16/19 6:47 pm ::: |
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I hope that MO had a little chuckle over this. Behind closed doors of course.
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| The West Virginia woman, who made national headlines in 2016 when she was fired from a county development organization over a racist Facebook post about former First Lady Michelle Obama, has now pleaded guilty to defrauding the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) out of $18,000 intended to help flood victims. |
https://www.wishtv.com/national/woman-who-called-michelle-obama-an-ape-pleads-guilty-to-embezzling-18-000-from-fema/1787262579
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"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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