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root_thing



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 4932
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PostPosted: 02/11/19 12:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
OK back to the drawing board

how about just draft Durr #2 Han Xu #14 and Blockton (Or Heideman) #26 and call it a day

Boyd/Hartley
Durr/Rodgers/Blockton
Nurse/Allen
Charles/Zahui B/Raincock-Ekunwe
Stokes/Han Xu

(I would be OK if we swapped in Zelous but if we are trying to develop some youth Xu and Blockton could be something in a couple of seasons, Blockton could also play some 3)


I could live with it because the picks are all players I like. Personally, if Ionescu comes out and McCowan is available at #2, I would still take McCowan. I'm not as confident as I was in August or September, but I would still take her. There should be some perimeter scorer types available later in the draft. Cunningham or Howard could realistically be there at #14, and if more than one junior comes out, then maybe both. Dillard and Kea will be there at #14. Mabrey's stock has fallen for various reasons, but she's still shooting a gaudy 52% FG/47% 3Pt. Not the quickest player in the world, but I think she has looked quicker in the past and simply needs to get in better shape. You have to love her feistiness, and being a local girl from NJ I think she'll be even more motivated. Later in the draft, you mentioned Blockton and Hiedeman, but I also like Davenport. I think these perimeter players are more likely to help us sooner than Han Xu in the middle. Obviously, Han has a higher ceiling, but she's very boom or bust. And if you've already taken McCowan, she has a high ceiling too. Really, neither direction is wrong. It just comes down to which combination you like better -- Durr/Han or McCowan/Cunningham or Howard. I prefer the latter. I think it's s safer bet, and it allows us to keep Nurse at SG.

Now if Ionescu doesn't come out, then that changes things. I'm not as big a fan of Brown, and it also lowers the chances of Cunningham or Howard being available at #14. That's where the option of trading down looks more appealing. Let's say Chicago really likes Brown. If they offer us something like Copper and #4 for #2, I think I would take it. Then, you go with Samuelson/Collier/Ogunbowale at #4 and Han #14. Or maybe this is where you roll the dice on Anigwe, knowing you already have Copper in hand. I honestly don't know what to say about Anigwe. I've seen her like 10 times this year and I still can't tell you if she'll be Chiney Ogwumike or Jillian Alleyne. The middle ground would be Cheyenne Parker.



_________________
Even now by the gate with your long hair blowing
And the colors of the day that lie along your arms
You must barter your life to make sure you are living
And the crowd that has come
You give them the colors
And the bells and wind and the dream
toad455



Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: 02/11/19 12:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm still sticking with Durr at #2 and we take the best available post at#14.



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toad455



Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: 02/11/19 1:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Both Zahui B and Allen signed multi-year contracts, so I guess that means Allen's a lock?



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J-Spoon



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: 02/11/19 1:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:
OK back to the drawing board

how about just draft Durr #2 Han Xu #14 and Blockton (Or Heideman) #26 and call it a day

Boyd/Hartley
Durr/Rodgers/Blockton
Nurse/Allen
Charles/Zahui B/Raincock-Ekunwe
Stokes/Han Xu

(I would be OK if we swapped in Zelous but if we are trying to develop some youth Xu and Blockton could be something in a couple of seasons, Blockton could also play some 3)


I could live with it because the picks are all players I like. Personally, if Ionescu comes out and McCowan is available at #2, I would still take McCowan. I'm not as confident as I was in August or September, but I would still take her. There should be some perimeter scorer types available later in the draft. Cunningham or Howard could realistically be there at #14, and if more than one junior comes out, then maybe both. Dillard and Kea will be there at #14. Mabrey's stock has fallen for various reasons, but she's still shooting a gaudy 52% FG/47% 3Pt. Not the quickest player in the world, but I think she has looked quicker in the past and simply needs to get in better shape. You have to love her feistiness, and being a local girl from NJ I think she'll be even more motivated. Later in the draft, you mentioned Blockton and Hiedeman, but I also like Davenport. I think these perimeter players are more likely to help us sooner than Han Xu in the middle. Obviously, Han has a higher ceiling, but she's very boom or bust. And if you've already taken McCowan, she has a high ceiling too. Really, neither direction is wrong. It just comes down to which combination you like better -- Durr/Han or McCowan/Cunningham or Howard. I prefer the latter. I think it's s safer bet, and it allows us to keep Nurse at SG.

Now if Ionescu doesn't come out, then that changes things. I'm not as big a fan of Brown, and it also lowers the chances of Cunningham or Howard being available at #14. That's where the option of trading down looks more appealing. Let's say Chicago really likes Brown. If they offer us something like Copper and #4 for #2, I think I would take it. Then, you go with Samuelson/Collier/Ogunbowale at #4 and Han #14. Or maybe this is where you roll the dice on Anigwe, knowing you already have Copper in hand. I honestly don't know what to say about Anigwe. I've seen her like 10 times this year and I still can't tell you if she'll be Chiney Ogwumike or Jillian Alleyne. The middle ground would be Cheyenne Parker.


I would be good with McCowan/Howard, I am not getting too excited about that option as I think (as you said) No Ionescu McCowan goes #1 and either way I am not sure Howard makes it to 14, I think Atl at 11 or even Washington at 10 would take a good look a her.

I like the Chicago trade I would take Copper and #4 for #2 real quick no matter who we take at 4. I would roll the dice on Anigwe there for sure, I am not as excited about the 2nd round guards as you are but Anigwe and the best guard at #14 would be fine with me, I would be fcool with Collier, or even Ogunbowale, Durr or KLS at #4 istead of Anigwe even though that would be kind of perimeter heave especially after getting Copper, and solve our post/size problem some other way. But I feel similar to the above issue with the trade, if Chicago needs rebounding maybe they should just pick Anigwe at #4 she might pair better with Dolson than Brown or McCowan and they can just keep Copper

I also would be fine with Mabrey if it is at 26 but not 14


J-Spoon



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 5093



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PostPosted: 02/11/19 1:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Let us say for the moment that we do go big with the #2 pick and we do not re-sign Prince or Zelous, would R. Williams be an option for NY? As a starter she could be that 2nd scoring option. That feel less like a rebuilding move and more like a win now move, but just because the fans think we are in rebuild if we don't make a big move that doesn't mean the coach and GM feel the same way.


toad455



Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 18765



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PostPosted: 02/11/19 2:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Williams would likely start, but her defense is terrible. Taking Brown or McCowan at #2 would likely force us to take a wing at #14. Howard? Tynice Martin if she enters? Curious what direction Smith wants to go in this draft?



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root_thing



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 4932
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PostPosted: 02/11/19 2:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Both Zahui B and Allen signed multi-year contracts, so I guess that means Allen's a lock?

Where are you seeing that Zahui B. and Allen signed multi-year contracts? The official announcement says terms not disclosed.


J-Spoon wrote:
Let us say for the moment that we do go big with the #2 pick and we do not re-sign Prince or Zelous, would R. Williams be an option for NY? As a starter she could be that 2nd scoring option. That feel less like a rebuilding move and more like a win now move, but just because the fans think we are in rebuild if we don't make a big move that doesn't mean the coach and GM feel the same way.

I guess I just don't like Riquna Williams. She can explode and carry your team for a game, then shoot you out of the next 3 games. Williams' advanced statistics are better than expected for her career, but they're way down the last two seasons. It's also hard to figure out because there are some inconsistencies from year to year, as well as conflicting numbers from Basketball-Reference and WNBA.com. But based on conventional statistics, the eyeball test, and the fact that Williams is another short guard, I'm not interested. I would rather take a flyer on Alexis Prince, who is long, can play either wing position, and was a very good 3 and D player in college. I'm not convinced that she's been given a real chance.



_________________
Even now by the gate with your long hair blowing
And the colors of the day that lie along your arms
You must barter your life to make sure you are living
And the crowd that has come
You give them the colors
And the bells and wind and the dream
toad455



Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 18765



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PostPosted: 02/11/19 2:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Official press release about Zahui B and Allen re-signed to multi-year deals.

https://www.wnba.com/news/rebecca-allen-amanda-zahui-b-re-sign-multi-year-deals-with-liberty/



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Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 2598
Location: New York City


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PostPosted: 02/11/19 2:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Official press release about Zahui B and Allen re-signed to multi-year deals.

https://www.wnba.com/news/rebecca-allen-amanda-zahui-b-re-sign-multi-year-deals-with-liberty/


This link is rather strange. The headline indeed says that Zahui B. and Allen were re-signed to multiyear deals. But the text of the article doesn't say anything about multiyear deals. Indeed, it says that the terms of the agreement were not disclosed, per team policy.

I have no idea what's true or untrue. But from many years as a writer I know that headlines often aren't written by the journalist who wrote the article and sometimes are simply wrong.


J-Spoon



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 5093



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PostPosted: 02/11/19 2:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I have to admit I was writing Allen off because of her injury but

I also knew she was pretty much a lock once she re-signed, you don't usually re-sign RFA if you don't see them as part of the future, that is when you move onto younger cheaper talent with more "potential".

The good news is being from Austrialia she is still a couple years younger than her RFA American counter parts which means she could still be on an upward trajectory talent/career-wise and Allen has had flashes of being that big SF with shooting and handle that the Liberty have been looking for the last few season. If Allen finally comes through or moves closer to her "potential" she is still a useful player for the Liberty.

I also like Allen and Zahui B so while I don't think either are World beaters they are good to have on the team.


Richyyy



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 21129
Location: London


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PostPosted: 02/11/19 2:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The problem with Allen, even beyond the injury, is that Smith never seemed to have any confidence in her last year. Unless that changes, there seems to be very little point in having her on the roster. It's like keeping youngsters on an Agler or Reeve team - why bother if they're never going to play?

I would also caution that 'multi-year' might indicate some level of confidence about them sticking around, but it doesn't mean any of the money is necessarily guaranteed. And if it's all non-guaranteed then they're just as cuttable as someone on a one-year deal.



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toad455



Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 18765



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PostPosted: 02/11/19 2:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If Allen is a lock now due to her contract, we might have:

PG: Boyd/#26 pick or free agent
SG: #2 pick/Rodgers/Hartley
SF: Nurse/Allen
PF: Charles/Raincock-Ekunwe/#14 pick
C: Zahui B/Stokes

Really no need to bring back Prince or Vaughn if this is how Smith is looking at things. If any UFAs come back, it might be Zellous and then Hartley is the default back-up PG again.



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LET'S GO LIBERTY!!!!!!

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Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 2598
Location: New York City


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PostPosted: 02/11/19 2:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
The problem with Allen, even beyond the injury, is that Smith never seemed to have any confidence in her last year. Unless that changes, there seems to be very little point in having her on the roster. It's like keeping youngsters on an Agler or Reeve team - why bother if they're never going to play?

I would also caution that 'multi-year' might indicate some level of confidence about them sticking around, but it doesn't mean any of the money is necessarily guaranteed. And if it's all non-guaranteed then they're just as cuttable as someone on a one-year deal.


For exactly the reason you've suggested, I'm stunned that Allen has been re-signed.


root_thing



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 4932
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PostPosted: 02/11/19 4:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
toad455 wrote:
Official press release about Zahui B and Allen re-signed to multi-year deals.

https://www.wnba.com/news/rebecca-allen-amanda-zahui-b-re-sign-multi-year-deals-with-liberty/


This link is rather strange. The headline indeed says that Zahui B. and Allen were re-signed to multiyear deals. But the text of the article doesn't say anything about multiyear deals. Indeed, it says that the terms of the agreement were not disclosed, per team policy.

I have no idea what's true or untrue. But from many years as a writer I know that headlines often aren't written by the journalist who wrote the article and sometimes are simply wrong.

That's what threw me off. I didn't even read the headline. I just went straight for the body of the article.


J-Spoon wrote:

The good news is being from Austrialia she is still a couple years younger than her RFA American counter parts which means she could still be on an upward trajectory talent/career-wise and Allen has had flashes of being that big SF with shooting and handle that the Liberty have been looking for the last few season. If Allen finally comes through or moves closer to her "potential" she is still a useful player for the Liberty.

Allen was not drafted. She was signed in the year she turned 23, so she turns 27 this year. Boyd, Stokes, and Zahui B. all turn 26 this year, so Allen is actually older than her counterparts.



_________________
Even now by the gate with your long hair blowing
And the colors of the day that lie along your arms
You must barter your life to make sure you are living
And the crowd that has come
You give them the colors
And the bells and wind and the dream
J-Spoon



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 5093



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PostPosted: 02/11/19 4:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

That is disappointing to hear I liked her more thinking she was 25

Oh well. This could still be the year she comes through


LibFan25



Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 639
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PostPosted: 02/11/19 4:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hmm. So the Liberty to not sign Boyd yet is telling, Coach Smith must got someone she's keeping an eye on or they're waiting to see what is her value is on the open market.

Boyd is still one of my fav's to watch and I hope she's comes back


Richyyy



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: 02/11/19 4:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I could imagine it being a vairable offer thing with Boyd. I'd be reluctant to guarantee too much money to her due to the injury history, so maybe they said "You can have X non-guaranteed, or Y guaranteed (or go find someone else to give you an offer and make us match Z)". Then it's in her court as to what to sign and when.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 02/11/19 4:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

That's what I'm thinking. Zahui B and Allen may have been signed for close to the minimum. They might have offered Boyd that and she passed and possibly asked for more. Time will tell.



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Luuuc



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PostPosted: 02/12/19 8:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Both Zahui B and Allen signed multi-year contracts, so I guess that means Allen's a lock?

No, she's a key


Nixtreefan



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PostPosted: 02/12/19 12:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Could simply be to get something in return for her.


NYSports56



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Posts: 315
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PostPosted: 02/12/19 5:40 pm    ::: Liberty Overseas Reply Reply with quote

Hi everyone--hope everyone is enjoying the off season!

If you're like me, the main problem with the off season is, by definition, the fact that there are no Liberty games. But there is the next best thing: the Fenerbahce Women's Basketball team!

Bria Hartley, Kiah Stokes and Kiah Vaughn are all on the team, and are joined by Kelsey Plum, and the games are on You Tube in full. There are no announcers, but the camera work is fairly decent, so the game is quite enjoyable. There are also no commercials, so you are often treated to more replays than you normally get.

Here are the links to their last 3 games:

Fenerbahce vs. Sopron Basket: Amanada Zahui B plays for Sopron. This one is worth watching just to see the Sopron coach. He goes absolutely ballistic during every time out; it is hilarious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRLx_Blh1qc

Fenerbahce vs. Dynamo Kursk: Epiphanny Prince is joined by Brianna Stewart to take on the Libs, err, the Fens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqMDDTrEdQw

Fenerbahce vs. Hatay BB: I don't recognize any of the opposing players on Hatay BB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZifVofmsj_8&t=898s

I'm not going to spoiler any of the games in this post, but I might comment about how the Liberty players are doing in a future post.

One thing that struck me about these games is that the crowds are no better than WNBA crowds, and probably worse. How do the players make their money over there? Are the teams just more generous with sharing the profits with the players? Is the TV money much more than in the WNBA? It doesn't make sense to me without a little more context.

Anyway, enjoy the games if you're so inclined!


root_thing



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: 02/12/19 5:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Team expenses, including salaries, are underwritten by sponsors be they companies, governments, individuals or some combination of these things. Overseas leagues are not based on a profit-making model.



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Even now by the gate with your long hair blowing
And the colors of the day that lie along your arms
You must barter your life to make sure you are living
And the crowd that has come
You give them the colors
And the bells and wind and the dream
Randy



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: 02/12/19 5:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Team expenses, including salaries, are underwritten by sponsors be they companies, governments, individuals or some combination of these things. Overseas leagues are not based on a profit-making model.


Is the WNBA?


root_thing



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: 02/12/19 6:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
root_thing wrote:
Team expenses, including salaries, are underwritten by sponsors be they companies, governments, individuals or some combination of these things. Overseas leagues are not based on a profit-making model.


Is the WNBA?


In theory, but not functionally. However, foreign teams don't even pretend.



_________________
Even now by the gate with your long hair blowing
And the colors of the day that lie along your arms
You must barter your life to make sure you are living
And the crowd that has come
You give them the colors
And the bells and wind and the dream
Richyyy



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 21129
Location: London


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PostPosted: 02/12/19 6:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Randy wrote:
root_thing wrote:
Team expenses, including salaries, are underwritten by sponsors be they companies, governments, individuals or some combination of these things. Overseas leagues are not based on a profit-making model.


Is the WNBA?


In theory, but not functionally. However, foreign teams don't even pretend.

Ultimately, though, how different is the WNBA? The amount of money they spend is theoretically defined by how much they can bring in from sponsorships, TV rights, tickets sales and anything else they can come up with. The only real difference is the CBA that blocks an individual pumping in however much of their own cash they might want to, and that losing millions of dollars doesn't seem to stop most teams from staying alive. Outside of the occasions where players haven't gotten paid (which are relatively rare percentage-wise, given how many contracts are signed each year), overseas teams spend what they've got to spend, however that money might be sourced. It's just in Communist USA that things get rather more grey.



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