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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 19705



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PostPosted: 02/06/19 5:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:

I am saying that fucking the intern should lead to the removal of the CEO. Or the firing of the teacher. Or in this case, removal of a president.


Do you regret not standing up at that time and calling for the removal of Bill Clinton on the grounds that had sex with a White House intern? She was 22 when she arrived there, by the way, not 19.

So the Lewinsky scandal is what brought me out of my shell online and I fought for the electoral legitimacy of the United States government on the New York Times forums for two years and my side won. I may have forgotten a lot but the important thing is I remember is exactly what's what. I'm sure a lot of people do but they can't admit it because they're Democrats and they would be asked to leave the party.

And boy if I could open my old Word documents with Word 365 (I can't) I would just post what I was writing 20 years ago.

But let's go back in the way back machine to the realities of the late 1990s as they applied to the victim here in most people's eyes. I'm not going to drop any quotes here, you'll have to read the articles yourselves.

Ex-Intern Allegedly Boasted of Sex: Los Angeles Times

The Mystique of Monica: Washington Post

What a Confused Woman! She's Very Needy, But Bravely Calls it Lust: The Guardian

Scandal at 1600: People



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justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 7169
Location: Northfield, MN


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PostPosted: 02/06/19 5:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

No, I regret actively fighting to keep him in office, for calling it not a big deal, for taking my shots at Lewinsky along with everyone else.

That is the problem, it wasn't that I was just passive. Even though I fought like hell against Thomas and believed Hill, I didn't have the moral fortitude to believe Jones, to see the pattern with the other women and to be disgusted by his behavior with an intern when it became politically inconvenient to do so, when it meant that it would allow those assholes to win after their ridiculous decade long investigation.

But I can see we just aren't going to see eye to eye on this. As I noted, my opinion on the power dynamics at play is something that I feel strongly about as it is something very real in my field.



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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 02/06/19 5:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
As I noted, my opinion on the power dynamics at play is something that I feel strongly about as it is something very real in my field.


Monica, We Hardly Knew You: TIME

"What the Senators mean by "young," she isn't. She's older than many women my age. She comes across as composed, self-possessed and unbroken. I guess that if Bill Clinton had it to do over again, knowing what he knows now, he wouldn't (although he has two years left, so I'd put no money on it). But Monica might. You don't have sex, or a reasonable facsimile of it, with a man who has his own standing army in order to relieve existential loneliness or find a soul mate. You do it for the record books, the thrill of it all. It's like the dog who walked on its hind legs: it's not that it's done well, but that it's done at all. Sex in the study next to the Oval Office while the most powerful man on earth discussed military action in a foreign country with a member of Congress might have been what she had in mind when she reportedly packed those "presidential kneepads." - Margaret Carlson (Describing video of Monica Lewinsky's deposition.)



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 7169
Location: Northfield, MN


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PostPosted: 02/06/19 6:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If you've never read it, this is her #MeToo take of the events. It is a good read, as she is a gifted writer.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/02/monica-lewinsky-in-the-age-of-metoo



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cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 11407
Location: In a world where a dbag like Trump isn't potus.


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PostPosted: 02/06/19 11:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
justintyme wrote:
Seriously? Even after all we have come to understand recently, we still can't accept that serious power differentials create major issues with the ability to freely consent?

There is a reason why I am not allowed to have relationships with my students, even if they are "consenting adults who could easily walk away" and even if they "wanted to" with all their little undergrad hearts. It quite simply is way too easy to manipulate when you are in that sort of position and grooming is a real thing.

It is one of those things that should not send you to jail for doing, as it doesn't make you a criminal, it just makes you a shit human being. But if you do it on the job, it sure as hell should get you fired and sure as hell should not be tolerated. And that includes being fired from being president of the United States.


Remove the democratically elected president because the partisan investigation into a land deal that went far beyond its scope eventually stumbles into an awareness of the existence of a dress containing the semen of that president?

He wasn’t impeached and facing removal from office for abusing the “power differential.” So are you saying he should have been removed from office for a reason that wasn’t even in the articles of impeachment?

I am saying that fucking the intern should lead to the removal of the CEO. Or the firing of the teacher. Or in this case, removal of a president.

But the perjury was definitely a legitimate thing to impeach him for. He knowingly lied under oath. I know if we can prove Trump knowingly lied under oath (or got someone to lie for him) I would want him gone. Even though paying off porn stars is far beyond the scope of looking into Russian meddling in the election.


The difference is that what Clinton was nailed for had virtually nothing to do with his presidency and broke no law. Trump needs to go down for conspiring w/ foreigners to defraud the American people during the 2016 election (and beyond); for emoluments clause offenses, and aiding and abetting our enemies. He is a clear and present danger to American Democracy and must be removed from office.

When considered in this way, it was just an extramarital bj by a consenting adult, imo.



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cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 11407
Location: In a world where a dbag like Trump isn't potus.


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PostPosted: 02/06/19 12:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Apparently the VA AG also has a blackface "past":

https://www.bostonherald.com/2019/02/06/virginia-ag-says-he-wore-blackface-at-college-party/



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justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 7169
Location: Northfield, MN


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PostPosted: 02/06/19 12:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
Apparently the VA AG also has a blackface "past":

https://www.bostonherald.com/2019/02/06/virginia-ag-says-he-wore-blackface-at-college-party/

Yeah, that is the type of thing that I was pointing out that while it was still objectively bad at that time, it is also reasonable that this guy might not have actually have known that (along with a vast majority of Americans at that time). An apology and "let's continue to listen and learn as we move forward" should be all that is required from this fellow.



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Stonington_QB



Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 421
Location: Your safe space


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PostPosted: 02/06/19 12:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
The difference is that what Clinton was nailed for had virtually nothing to do with his presidency and broke no law.

Perjury is a crime. Lying to a federal judge under oath is against the law. He may have been acquitted by the Senate for a laundry list of other offenses, including:
Quote:
Article I charged that Clinton lied to the grand jury concerning:

the nature and details of his relationship with Lewinsky
prior false statements he made in the Jones deposition
prior false statements he allowed his lawyer to make characterizing Lewinsky's affidavit
his attempts to tamper with witnesses

Article III charged Clinton with attempting to obstruct justice in the Jones case by:

encouraging Lewinsky to file a false affidavit
encouraging Lewinsky to give false testimony if and when she was called to testify
concealing gifts he had given to Lewinsky that had been subpoenaed
attempting to secure a job for Lewinsky to influence her testimony
permitting his lawyer to make false statements characterizing Lewinsky's affidavit
attempting to tamper with the possible testimony of his secretary Betty Curie
making false and misleading statements to potential grand jury witnesses

but it doesn't mean they didn't happen.
cthskzfn wrote:
Trump needs to go down for conspiring w/ foreigners to defraud the American people during the 2016 election (and beyond); for emoluments clause offenses, and aiding and abetting our enemies. He is a clear and present danger to American Democracy and must be removed from office.


I must not have been paying attention. What exactly did he do to conspire with foreigners to defraud the American people, and to aid and abet our enemies?


cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 11407
Location: In a world where a dbag like Trump isn't potus.


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PostPosted: 02/06/19 1:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stonington_QB wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
The difference is that what Clinton was nailed for had virtually nothing to do with his presidency and broke no law.

Perjury is a crime. Lying to a federal judge under oath is against the law. He may have been acquitted by the Senate for a laundry list of other offenses, including:
Quote:
Article I charged that Clinton lied to the grand jury concerning:

the nature and details of his relationship with Lewinsky
prior false statements he made in the Jones deposition
prior false statements he allowed his lawyer to make characterizing Lewinsky's affidavit
his attempts to tamper with witnesses

Article III charged Clinton with attempting to obstruct justice in the Jones case by:

encouraging Lewinsky to file a false affidavit
encouraging Lewinsky to give false testimony if and when she was called to testify
concealing gifts he had given to Lewinsky that had been subpoenaed
attempting to secure a job for Lewinsky to influence her testimony
permitting his lawyer to make false statements characterizing Lewinsky's affidavit
attempting to tamper with the possible testimony of his secretary Betty Curie
making false and misleading statements to potential grand jury witnesses

but it doesn't mean they didn't happen.
cthskzfn wrote:
Trump needs to go down for conspiring w/ foreigners to defraud the American people during the 2016 election (and beyond); for emoluments clause offenses, and aiding and abetting our enemies. He is a clear and present danger to American Democracy and must be removed from office.


I must not have been paying attention. What exactly did he do to conspire with foreigners to defraud the American people, and to aid and abet our enemies?




It's been clear for years you don't pay attention to anything beyond the usual 2%, Republican White Patriarchal NRA party line, (AKA the Putin Plan nowadays.)

Clinton lied about a blowjob. Trump has been lying about conspiracy to defraud a US federal election and obstruction of justice for more than 2+ years. He has violated the emoluments clause for nearly as long.

I guess if it's not on FOXAGANDA, you'll miss it.



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Stonington_QB



Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 421
Location: Your safe space


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PostPosted: 02/06/19 2:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
Stonington_QB wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
The difference is that what Clinton was nailed for had virtually nothing to do with his presidency and broke no law.

Perjury is a crime. Lying to a federal judge under oath is against the law. He may have been acquitted by the Senate for a laundry list of other offenses, including:
Quote:
Article I charged that Clinton lied to the grand jury concerning:

the nature and details of his relationship with Lewinsky
prior false statements he made in the Jones deposition
prior false statements he allowed his lawyer to make characterizing Lewinsky's affidavit
his attempts to tamper with witnesses

Article III charged Clinton with attempting to obstruct justice in the Jones case by:

encouraging Lewinsky to file a false affidavit
encouraging Lewinsky to give false testimony if and when she was called to testify
concealing gifts he had given to Lewinsky that had been subpoenaed
attempting to secure a job for Lewinsky to influence her testimony
permitting his lawyer to make false statements characterizing Lewinsky's affidavit
attempting to tamper with the possible testimony of his secretary Betty Curie
making false and misleading statements to potential grand jury witnesses

but it doesn't mean they didn't happen.
cthskzfn wrote:
Trump needs to go down for conspiring w/ foreigners to defraud the American people during the 2016 election (and beyond); for emoluments clause offenses, and aiding and abetting our enemies. He is a clear and present danger to American Democracy and must be removed from office.


I must not have been paying attention. What exactly did he do to conspire with foreigners to defraud the American people, and to aid and abet our enemies?




It's been clear for years you don't pay attention to anything beyond the usual 2%, Republican White Patriarchal NRA party line, (AKA the Putin Plan nowadays.)

Clinton lied about a blowjob. Trump has been lying about conspiracy to defraud a US federal election and obstruction of justice for more than 2+ years. He has violated the emoluments clause for nearly as long.

I guess if it's not on FOXAGANDA, you'll miss it.

He lied under oath to a grand jury and a federal judge. That's not the same as lying on Rebkell now, is it?

Again, what did President Trump do to conspire with foreigners to defraud the American public, and how did he lie about it?


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 11486
Location: Oklahoma (in my heart), whilst on my way to Oregon!


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PostPosted: 02/06/19 4:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
I guess if it's not on FOXAGANDA, you'll miss it.


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Do not engage the Deplorables, First Class or otherwise...."Pearls before swine" 'n all that. Razz



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justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 7169
Location: Northfield, MN


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PostPosted: 02/06/19 6:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
I guess if it's not on FOXAGANDA, you'll miss it.


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Do not engage the Deplorables, First Class or otherwise...."Pearls before swine" 'n all that. Razz

Yeah, pretty much. I actually have enjoyed my discussion with you and jammer here even though we are coming from differ viewpoints and are unlikely to agree on the matter. But it does give depth and legitimate thought to the issue, and will color some of the nuances and complexities of my views.

But sometimes, sometimes the only winning move is not to play.

How about a nice game of chess?



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pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 57930
Location: Where the action is


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PostPosted: 02/06/19 6:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

When we said more black faces in government, we should have been specific...



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tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 7021



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PostPosted: 02/06/19 6:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:

Trump has been lying about conspiracy to defraud a US federal election


Can you give us the details on the conspiracy to defraud a US federal election?


cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 11407
Location: In a world where a dbag like Trump isn't potus.


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PostPosted: 02/06/19 7:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:

Trump has been lying about conspiracy to defraud a US federal election


Can you give us the details on the conspiracy to defraud a US federal election?


Hush money paid to Daniels and the catch and kill deal re: McDougal. Those are obvious.

There's more- denying involvement with Russia, during the campaign, as he sought clearance to build in Moscow; the Trump Tower meeting, etc.

Not hard to decipher.



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justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 7169
Location: Northfield, MN


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PostPosted: 02/06/19 8:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Virginia's Lt. Governor also likely needs to resign.

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/06/692060595/virginia-lt-governors-accuser-comes-forward-with-account-of-alleged-sexual-assau?ft=nprml&f=1001



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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 02/06/19 8:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
When we said more black faces in government, we should have been specific...


lol. Got to spell everything out apparently.

Is this AG the most perfect thing ever in life to explain what's wrong with American politics? I mean, and the governor, too. But the AG is on another level. He's charged with law enforcement in the state. He called for the governor to resign. And now this. It just indicates a systemic reality EVEN among Democrats who make up the political classes in this country.

The sexual assault guy. The woman is a doctor? Did I hear that right? And she's a black woman. This one is just an epically tragic tale. He's got to go, obviously.

But that AG. I'm sorry. I'm laughing at that one.



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 7021



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PostPosted: 02/06/19 10:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
tfan wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:

Trump has been lying about conspiracy to defraud a US federal election


Can you give us the details on the conspiracy to defraud a US federal election?


Hush money paid to Daniels and the catch and kill deal re: McDougal. Those are obvious.

There's more- denying involvement with Russia, during the campaign, as he sought clearance to build in Moscow; the Trump Tower meeting, etc.

Not hard to decipher.


Oh, I thought you were suggesting a Trump/Putin conspiracy, not a Trump/Cohen hush money conspiracy. I have heard the Cohen/Daniels matter will have him prosecuted - for a campaign violation, not a conspiracy to defraud a US federal election - but only after he leaves office. And I think they may have said it would be beyond the statute of limitations if he got re-elected.

I don't believe that denying business interests with Russia during the campaign is a crime if not done under oath.




Last edited by tfan on 02/07/19 4:03 am; edited 1 time in total
Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 11486
Location: Oklahoma (in my heart), whilst on my way to Oregon!


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PostPosted: 02/07/19 12:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
When we said more black faces in government, we should have been specific...


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Yeah, REALLY. Razz



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Stonington_QB



Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 421
Location: Your safe space


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PostPosted: 02/07/19 12:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
I guess if it's not on FOXAGANDA, you'll miss it.


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Do not engage the Deplorables, First Class or otherwise...."Pearls before swine" 'n all that. Razz

As usual you have nothing to add except cheap insults and complete ignorance.

By the way... your little plan isn't going to work.


cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 11407
Location: In a world where a dbag like Trump isn't potus.


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PostPosted: 02/08/19 8:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
tfan wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:

Trump has been lying about conspiracy to defraud a US federal election


Can you give us the details on the conspiracy to defraud a US federal election?


Hush money paid to Daniels and the catch and kill deal re: McDougal. Those are obvious.

There's more- denying involvement with Russia, during the campaign, as he sought clearance to build in Moscow; the Trump Tower meeting, etc.

Not hard to decipher.


Oh, I thought you were suggesting a Trump/Putin conspiracy, not a Trump/Cohen hush money conspiracy. I have heard the Cohen/Daniels matter will have him prosecuted - for a campaign violation, not a conspiracy to defraud a US federal election - but only after he leaves office. And I think they may have said it would be beyond the statute of limitations if he got re-elected.

I don't believe that denying business interests with Russia during the campaign is a crime if not done under oath.



There's more to come, of course. Mueller (aka Justice Man) is on the case, as is the House of Representatives, who are doing the voting public's bidding at long last. Democracy at work, after two years. Sit back, grab some popcorn, and enjoy.



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pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 02/09/19 3:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I guess he thought blackface was more defensible than "post-term abortion". He did manage to change the subject, at least.



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Her mocking smile says it all
As she records the rise and fall
Of every soldier passing
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