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toad455
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 Posted: 12/27/18 12:25 pm ::: |
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| I'm ok if they pick Durr at #2 and go with a big at #14. Maybe Smith Gamble's with Xu Han at #14?
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root_thing
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| Posted: 12/27/18 4:05 pm ::: |
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| Nixtreefan wrote: |
| This is a head scratcher, what are some of you watching? You complain about Brown and McCowan and yet pump up dUrr/Ogunnerbrawler and Ionescu, none of which can guard anyone and make no attempt to LMAO. |
So, who do you actually like? You seem to agree with Glenn on Brown and McCowan being "big galoots". You accuse Durr, Ogunbowale and Ionesco of making no effort to defend. You claim Collier is both a hesitant shooter and passer. (Which leaves her with nothing to do -- just hold the ball until the 30-second clock runs out.  ) Are you all in on Samuelson? Gustafson? Turner? Mystery Player behind Door #4?
| toad455 wrote: |
| I'm ok if they pick Durr at #2 and go with a big at #14. Maybe Smith Gamble's with Xu Han at #14? |
Han Xu is an interesting player, but I doubt she's ready to be a significant contributor in the WNBA. Right now, she's an OK but not great player in the Chinese League. With Tina's clock ticking, NY will want immediate help. I see five post players worth 1st Round picks: McCowan, Brown, Anigwe, Turner, and Gustafson. Some people also like Shepard, and Smith is working her way up the ladder. Just based on supply and demand, at least one of those players will be available at #14. I'm not suggesting that this player will be starter quality, but she's likely to be more useful immediately than Han. I left out Magbegor because she's another young player who probably isn't ready yet.
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J-Spoon
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| Posted: 12/27/18 5:11 pm ::: |
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And jumping on the point about Durr, Ogunbowale and Ionescu defense.
tbh I don't care anymore about defense, I know defense wins games but after years of being a Liberty fan and especially the last two seasons watching them struggle on the offensive end and really only being able to count on Charles to score and watching her get double and triple teamed I just want someone else who can put the ball in the basket consistently. I like the players above because I think they will be able to that, and the games if nothing else will be more exciting and entertaining. Grind it out basketball is OK if you are winning most of your games like two and three seasons ago, but grind it out basketball with a lot of losing makes the team really hard to watch.
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WNBA 09
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Randy
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| Posted: 12/27/18 5:47 pm ::: |
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| Regarding Han Xu - I think the numbers Billings and Luechenka are putting up this year in China says a lot about the level of competition over there.
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toad455
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| Posted: 12/27/18 6:17 pm ::: |
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Liberty could have:
PG: Boyd/Hartley[or a FA]
SG: Durr/Rodgers/Prince
SF: Nurse/Zellous
PF: Charles/Raincock-Ekunwe
C: Zahui B/Stokes/#14 pick
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root_thing
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| Posted: 12/27/18 6:19 pm ::: |
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| Randy wrote: |
| Regarding Han Xu - I think the numbers Billings and Luechenka are putting up this year in China says a lot about the level of competition over there. |
What? You don't believe Luechenka is a legitimate 22 ppg and 18 rpg player? Or Howard at 35 and 12? Or Achonwa at 25 and 11? By comparison, Han is putting up a pedestrian 14 and 6 -- although she does lead the league in blocks with 2+ per game.
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Aladyyn
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J-Spoon
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| Posted: 12/27/18 10:01 pm ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
Liberty could have:
PG: Boyd/Hartley[or a FA]
SG: Durr/Rodgers/Prince
SF: Nurse/Zellous
PF: Charles/Raincock-Ekunwe
C: Zahui B/Stokes/#14 pick |
I would be fine with that
If we could combine 14 and a guard (Prince, Rodgers, Hartley) to jump up to 7 to 10 for Anigwe, I would try it. But those starters would be our best scoring team in years and there are okdefenders in that starting group and on the bench.
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Shades
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| Posted: 12/28/18 2:29 am ::: |
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| Davis4632 wrote: |
| Nixtreefan wrote: |
| This is a head scratcher, what are some of you watching? You complain about Brown and McCowan and yet pump up dUrr/Ogunnerbrawler and Ionescu, none of which can guard anyone and make no attempt to LMAO. |
I guess it's because Brown and McCowan has had bad scoring games and the other three havent. |
McCowan in a postgame interview after a dominating 31-pt/20-reb performance over LSU.
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.espn.com/core/video/iframe?id=21995476&endcard=false" allowfullscreen frameborder="0"></iframe>
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J-Spoon
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| Posted: 12/28/18 3:34 am ::: |
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I don't want my comments to be seen as bashing McCowan and Brown I think it is possible they will both be all-stars at the next level, I just have more question marks on how they will translate than how Durr and Ogunbowale will translate. And I still have McCowan as the #1 pick in my mock for now.
Shades has suggested I run a some mocks for the Liberty one going Post at #2 and G/W at #14 and another going G/W at #2 and post at #14. I am not going to write out the whole thing but this is what i have come up with. Players in brackets are players that might not be available at the pick listed.
Post at #2 (McCowan), Brown, Collier, Anigwe
G/W at #14 (Cunningham), (Mar. Moore), Howard, Bell, Kea, Mabrey, Dillard, Martin, Blockton, Cazorla
G/W at #2 Durr, KLS, Ogunbowale
Post at #14 (Anigwe), (Sheppard), (Turner), (Magbegor), (Gustfason), Robinson, Jennings, Xu Han
It is an interesting exercise and I could see an argument being made for the Post at #2 G/W at #14 being better than the G/W at #2 and Post at $14 unless one of the assumed 1st round posts falls to the second round if Anigwe, Turner or Sheppard ended up in the 2nd round that would make the pairing a lot stronger. Ionescu coming out also opens things up even though I like Brown I am rating McCowan ahead of her so McCowan might still be off the board by pick #2 unless Ionescu declares and goes #1, now if Ionescu declares and LV picks a post NY has to pick Ionescu, but for now lets assume she doesn't declare below are some of the draft pairing I think NY would likely to end up with the top 3 being the most realistic IMO
G/P
Durr/Jennings
P/W
Brown/Howard
a third interesting variation could be
G/W
Durr/Howard (we would still have to solve our post situation But Durr at the 2 and Howard at the 14 especially if Zelous moves on could be a decent draft for NY). I have seen Howard a couple of times and really like her. She is developing her range if she gets more consistent I think she will be a borderline first round pick because her game, size and athleticism will translate to the next level if she can become a full-time SF
now some more creative ones
G/P
Ogunbowale/Turner
P/G
McCowan/Bell
P/G
Collier/Mabrey
W/P
KLS/Gustafson
and way out there
P/G
Anigwe/Dillard
W/P
Collier/Xu Han or Magbegor
(I think Collier should play as a post at the next level but I could see a coach trying to transition her to the Wing).
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root_thing
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| Posted: 12/28/18 1:45 pm ::: |
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I don't understand how Collier as a post helps the Liberty. She is not a center at the pro level and likely not even a PF. Napheesa needs to make the transition to SF. Even if you use Collier at PF, are you moving Tina to center? Yes, Charles played center for many years at UConn and for the Sun. However, she's now older and the league is getting bigger. Charles won't like the extra banging. In fact, according to Geno, Tina begged him not to make her play center at UConn.
I think you're overrating Mariya Moore. Her career numbers are mediocre for a pro prospect, and she's not the kind of superior athlete that coaches drool over (as far as I can tell). Moore's current year production is consistent with her career stats, so she hasn't stepped it up. When Mazyck was healthy, Mariya was essentially the 3rd option -- sometimes the fourth because USC would often force the ball into one of their two centers. A player can get drafted high as the 3rd option for UConn or ND, but 3rd option on USC is probably not going to cut it.
While we're only on the verge of conference play, it should be noted that several players are off to slow starts or have otherwise dropped off in performance. Jennings started the season injured and has not really gotten untracked. 9.4 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 0.8 blocks are pretty underwhelming for someone many considered a possible 1st Round pick. Kea has been slowed by injuries, but her numbers are actually close to where they were at this time last year. She took off in the 2nd half of last season and will need to do so again. Mabrey missed 4 games and is still looking a bit rusty. Of more concern is that she appears out-of-shape to me -- slower and a bit awkward. Frankly, she resembles her sister Michaela more than herself. Cunningham is doing OK, but she has come back down to earth after a spectacularly efficient shooting year as a junior (15.5 ppg 45%/34.7% vs 18.5 ppg 54.2%/45.7%).
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Shades
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| Posted: 12/28/18 2:21 pm ::: |
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That was a bit messy, Spooner, but at least you tried. I was looking more for one name for each spot, #2-#14.
I see you have Anigwe as a possibility at both #2 and #14. What does that tell you? If you think Anigwe might be a possibility at #14, why would you even consider her at #2? You’ve seen enough of her to think she’s a can’t-miss at #2? This is fresh off her 5-16 (31.25%) performance from the center position against UConn. Usually the last game is held against a player at Rebkell’s, but definitely not in this case.
I see you’ve left yourself with basically your choice of second tier guards at #14. Isn’t that a good place to be? How do the second tier compare to the first? Worlds of difference? How do the second tier forwards/post compare to the first tier?
Who knows though. It sounds like Katie Smith caught a little Reeve-itis with her obsession with guards and wanting to put her resources towards guards (Smith and Reeve both being ex-guards themselves). Even though this is one of the best depth drafts ever for posts, maybe Smith will want to use both #2 & #14 picks for guards.
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Shades
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| Posted: 12/28/18 2:33 pm ::: |
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I noticed you guys have two signed early signed RFA’s in Stokes and Rodgers.
You have two unsigned RFA’s in Zahui and Boyd. Why weren’t all the RFA’s signed early? Are these two lower on the totem pole, or were they offered but they wanted to leave their options open?
Between Zahui and Boyd, which RFA do you value more?
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toad455
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| Posted: 12/28/18 2:46 pm ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
I noticed you guys have two signed early signed RFA’s in Stokes and Rodgers.
You have two unsigned RFA’s in Zahui and Boyd. Why weren’t all the RFA’s signed early? Are these two lower on the totem pole, or were they offered but they wanted to leave their options open?
Between Zahui and Boyd, which RFA do you value more? |
Clearly Boyd. But both should get re-signed. Zahui B was our second best post player last season.
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toad455
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| Posted: 12/28/18 3:43 pm ::: |
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Charles will likely be cored again, so if she wants out of Westchester, she'll require a trade.
Dupree left Phoenix for Indiana, so I doubt she goes back. If anything, Bonner would have to go to Indiana(via trade).
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J-Spoon
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| Posted: 12/28/18 3:49 pm ::: |
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I just wanted to show all the options
simple version
my ideal draft
G/P
#2 Durr/#14 Anigwe
but since I think Anigwe will go before #14
#2 Durr/#14 Howard (Howard isn't a post but I would pick her before Jennings or whatever post might be there unless Sheppard, Turner or Gustafason fall to #14)
or
P/G
#2 Brown or McCowan/#14 Howard or Bell (I think McCowan still goes #1 but thought I would put out both top post options in case LV doesn't go with a big. I like Howard but Bell could be an interesting choice if Katie wants more of a pure PG to back up or even replace Boyd).
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toad455
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| Posted: 12/28/18 5:10 pm ::: |
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| We need another post as I'm hoping Vaughn doesn't get brought back. It's a deep draft for post players and there should be someone worth drafting at #14 to replace Vaughn and develop long term.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 12/29/18 8:21 pm ::: |
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| J-Spoon wrote: |
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
Entering conference play, I’d be pretty satisfied with any of McCowan, Samuelson or Brown for NY. My feelings on Durr and Arike haven’t changed much. Great players, but the above 3 I think are the better fits.
I watched the MSU-Oregon game and was alternately impressed and underwhelmed by parts of McCowan’s game. On one hand Oregon played a triangle and two...a defense you’ll never see in the WNBA with the defensive 3 second rule. McCowan has improved her awareness and passing vs. double teams. What I didn’t see was the ability to execute post moves. Her raw ability is enough to be a 10-7 type of player who gives you rim protection as a rookie. The Libs need that so I’d live with that. Eventually you hope for development beyond that though.
KLS has improved her shot creation some, as well as her rebounding. Upper body strength is still an issue though.
I’m hoping Ionescu comes out. Even if there’s no trade and Vegas picks her, that leaves NY with its pick of the seniors. Other than Ionescu, every other player has a flaw that leaves you wondering how good they might be. Not saying Ionescu is perfect. Just saying I think it’s clear she’s an impact player fast. We can’t say that definitively about any other player in the draft. |
The weird thing is while watching the same season (though I think you follow college ball closer than I do) I have come to the exact opposite conclusion.
I am confident that Durr and Ogunbowale's offense will translate to the next level. I think it is a safe bet that both will be double digit scorers from day 1 and considering how anemic the Liberty offense has been adding either would pretty much make them the second option in NY where we haven't had a double digit scorer outside of Charles the past two seasons. I also think Durr and Ogunbowale will be borderline all-stars in the future and probably be at least mid to late cuts in the team USA camps the next few go rounds.
Yes both players play at our most populated position but with Nurse being big enough to play the 3 I would be fine going forward the next few years with Durr/Ogunbowale at the 2 Nurse at the 3 Charles as the 4 core.
I am less convinced now by McCowan and Brown. Yes they have the potential to be great at the next level, but I am feeling they are more likely to be OK to good. It would be a big risk to pass on them because of there size, potential and college production and Centers come at more of a premium than shooting/scoring guards but while I am confident Durr and Ogunbowale will translate on the offensive end to near top tier performers I am not as confident that McCowan and Brown get there. And while I would be kicking myself if we past of McCowan and/or Brown and they blew up ATM except for there size I am not even sure they will be better pros than Anigwe or even Gustafson or Turner when she is a few years away from her injury.
Now KLS is sort of the wild card for me ATM I could see her going the route of struggling tweener not big and strong enough to play PF at the next level and not fast enough to play SF. KLS might struggle to do what she is able to do now based on who she is defending night in and night out and who is defending her. OTOH Instead of being a tweener KLS could be a player who could play both at SF and PF and could become a mismatch nightmare for the opponent on the offensive end. If she can get herself to the second category she could become a reverse EDD light kind of player shooting over smaller defenders or pulling slower bigs out to the perimeter, dribbling past them or opening up lanes for her teammates. In the long run I think she will need to develop into being a stretch PF to be most successful at the next level but she has enough handle to start on the perimeter. But with those nice things said I won't be surprised that if in the W she ends up being a spot up shooter with a few tricks in her bag rather than an offensive power house, it might be worth taking the risk for the ceiling version but she seems the least safe choice of the top 6 players for being able to translate to an all-star type of player.
I agree with you about Ionescu I am definitely on her bandwagon now and would go a step further and say if she comes out NY should offer #2 and the player of Laimbeer's choice (minus Charles) to get her. Even if she never plays defense The Liberty are sorely lack the the scoring and wow factor she brings to the game. |
I don't follow women's college all that closely myself, though I have made more of an effort to watch the top 5 players extensively. Ionescu is a franchise player...that's not up for debate.
I agree with you on a lot of this actually. I also think Durr and Arike are early double digit scorers. I just don't think the Libs have a primary need for either player given the fact that I don't envision either player being anything more than average at best at creating for teammates at their respective sizes. Arike is an undersized SG who has improved somewhat as a passer. But I don't see court vision being enough a part of her game for a 5'8" player. Yes, she can be a spark, but I'm not sold on her being an elite level player. The Libs are overloaded at guard, particularly if there are plans to bring back Piph and/or Z. There's only so many 5'8" to 5'10" players required when none of those players can play PG particularly well.
I have reservations about KLS, McCowan and Brown too. The argument you've made about KLS is IMO particularly well-put because it's balanced and accurate. I do think there's going to be matchup problems for her on the defensive end. I just foresee her being able to be a greater matchup problem the other way. WNBA spacing is going to really help her get looks, especially with her shooting range combined with her height and ability to shoot off the dribble. I also think she will grow into her body as she gains pro experience, which would hopefully nullify some of the defensive questions. Not that I expect her to be DPOY, but a player with her attributes can become a functional one with hard work.
I envision McCowan as an immediate impact player defensively. Yes, she's a rookie and no her speed won't be confused with Brittney Sykes. But any player with that type of enormous size and pretty good agility is going to be a factor on the defensive end. It is, however, difficult to envision a player being a franchise caliber player in the middle when that player doesn't display much post-up ability. If she develops some moves, she could produce like Syl. If not, her low point would probably be the rookie version of Kiah Stokes. Desirable? For the Libs, no question. #2 pick worthy? Arguably no.
Regarding Brown, I like the fact that she does a lot of things reasonably well and has moves to go with good footwork and BB IQ. But if you look back at other players with a similar physical skillset (Davenport and Kara Braxton are the two closest I can think of) then she doesn't profile all that well. Conversely, each of those two players was somewhat passive in their approach to the game of basketball. Perhaps Brown's intangibles (whatever they may be, I can't speak to them) might help her game translate better.
The uncertainty makes this an interesting draft, even at the top. It also means that the #2 pick has potential to be boom or bust.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 12/29/18 8:38 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
Based on the statements by Katie Smith, I would have to say that the early betting is on Durr or Ogunbowale. The problem with having Durr or Ogunbowale at SG and Nurse at SF is that you'd be really small on defense. That's been the situation the last couple of years. NY got away with it in 2017, but the dam broke in 2018. You need really good help defense from your center to compensate for shortcomings on the perimeter. With Stokes playing injured, NY didn't have anyone up to the task. But even if Stokes is healthy in 2019, the league is getting bigger. You could end up with another match-up problem at center. And of course, Kiah remains a big zero on offense. As for Nurse, I'm confident she is a legit 6-0 tall, but she only weighs 150 lbs. Kia said in an interview that she was surprised the Liberty asked her to play SF because WNBA players at that position are "huge." Aside from the match-up concerns, Nurse has never been much of a rebounder if you look at her college numbers. Then you have Durr and Ogunbowale themselves, Yes, there are reasons to believe they can score at the next level. However, there are people on this board who accuse them of being bad defenders. I personally haven't noticed their defense -- good or bad -- but I do know that Asia and Arike are smallish for a pro SG. Of course, none of this matters if the Liberty simply play PaulBall and forget about defense. 
Given the uncertainty, I'd be willing to trade down and pick up an extra player if some team is really anxious for that #2 pick. I wouldn't go down too far, but if we're talking about 5 or 6 players having similar value then that's a lot of flexibility. |
Agreed. These arguments are the exact reason I'd take KLS if a post player isn't the choice. How many undersized SGs does a 9-win team with terrible help defense and rim protection need? I see Nurse as having the potential to add muscle that will more easily enable her to play SF. However, I'd welcome any move that will stabilize the offense while also moving her to her true spot of SG. She'd also have chemistry with Katie Lou and the Liberty would be able to stretch defenses with outside shooting for the first time since 2010.
Like centers, small forwards around the league are also getting bigger. SF was once easily the league's weakest position. Now it's much more stacked. So while I think Nurse can be functional as a 3 spot player, there's a big difference between functional and being able to DICTATE. The Liberty dictated nothing at any matchup position last year except with Tina in the post offense. Basketball is a game of dictating and forcing teams to adjust. If you don't you will lose. The Liberty couldn't...and lost...a lot. To dictate, the matchup equation for the Libs simply has to be altered. I don't see that happening with another SG.
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LibFan25
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| Posted: 12/30/18 1:31 am ::: |
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Anigwe has really impressed me alot so far going into conference play, with her ability to rebound and score on the low block, very high motor and the athleticism she would help the Libs immediately in that department which we struggled all season long on the defensive end
i'm not concerned with Brown like others are on here, we need a post and she will be the best available in the draft.
but i just have this feeling Katie will go guard, my gut as of right now its either gonna be Durr or KLS
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LibFan25
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| Posted: 12/30/18 1:49 am ::: |
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| on another note that just popped into my head is Tynice Martin from West Virginia. Everytime i see her game she always gettin buckets, i like her under the radar player the Libs should take a look at second round if they decide to go post 1st round.
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Happycappie25
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| Posted: 12/30/18 9:24 am ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
Based on the statements by Katie Smith, I would have to say that the early betting is on Durr or Ogunbowale. The problem with having Durr or Ogunbowale at SG and Nurse at SF is that you'd be really small on defense. That's been the situation the last couple of years. NY got away with it in 2017, but the dam broke in 2018. You need really good help defense from your center to compensate for shortcomings on the perimeter. With Stokes playing injured, NY didn't have anyone up to the task. But even if Stokes is healthy in 2019, the league is getting bigger. You could end up with another match-up problem at center. And of course, Kiah remains a big zero on offense. As for Nurse, I'm confident she is a legit 6-0 tall, but she only weighs 150 lbs. Kia said in an interview that she was surprised the Liberty asked her to play SF because WNBA players at that position are "huge." Aside from the match-up concerns, Nurse has never been much of a rebounder if you look at her college numbers. Then you have Durr and Ogunbowale themselves, Yes, there are reasons to believe they can score at the next level. However, there are people on this board who accuse them of being bad defenders. I personally haven't noticed their defense -- good or bad -- but I do know that Asia and Arike are smallish for a pro SG. Of course, none of this matters if the Liberty simply play PaulBall and forget about defense.
Given the uncertainty, I'd be willing to trade down and pick up an extra player if some team is really anxious for that #2 pick. I wouldn't go down too far, but if we're talking about 5 or 6 players having similar value then that's a lot of flexibility. |
Agreed. These arguments are the exact reason I'd take KLS if a post player isn't the choice. How many undersized SGs does a 9-win team with terrible help defense and rim protection need? I see Nurse as having the potential to add muscle that will more easily enable her to play SF. However, I'd welcome any move that will stabilize the offense while also moving her to her true spot of SG. She'd also have chemistry with Katie Lou and the Liberty would be able to stretch defenses with outside shooting for the first time since 2010.
Like centers, small forwards around the league are also getting bigger. SF was once easily the league's weakest position. Now it's much more stacked. So while I think Nurse can be functional as a 3 spot player, there's a big difference between functional and being able to DICTATE. The Liberty dictated nothing at any matchup position last year except with Tina in the post offense. Basketball is a game of dictating and forcing teams to adjust. If you don't you will lose. The Liberty couldn't...and lost...a lot. To dictate, the matchup equation for the Libs simply has to be altered. I don't see that happening with another SG. |
This....I agree Samuleson makes most sense if mccowan goes #1 (I'm not sold on Brown)
I still say since we have a lot of rfas if we trade into the 8-12 range with an RFA and the 14 and pick up say a Cunningham with that second pick...I feel the is enough at 2 that if you go 3 or post at the 2 pick there's value late first worth offloading someone with the 14 pick thoughts?
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toad455
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| Posted: 12/30/18 10:57 am ::: |
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Megdal's Twitter debate on why the Liberty should move to Newark and play at the Prudential Center.
https://twitter.com/howardmegdal/status/1079200486534889472?s=19
Of course anything is better than WCC, but will the Liberty draw in Newark considering they didn't do well in their three years there?
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LET'S GO LIBERTY!!!!!!
Twitter: @TBRBWAY
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