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Inside the WNBA's Fight for Higher Pay
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Shades



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PostPosted: 12/04/18 11:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nixtreefan wrote:
Maybe the coaches are getting too much money or some of them as it seems relative to the season and the fact that some are getting more than double the top players.


Coaching and GM are important positions because you have one person that can affect the success of a team as compared to one player as a part of 12-member team. If the current salary level of those positions gets you the level of coaching and front office we have now, can you imagine what would happen if you cut these salaries in half? You might end up with Alan Barcoff as a coach and SpaceJunkie as a GM, and nobody wants to see that. That being said, I do believe there is plenty of front office bloat with all these unneeded positions, especially with a team like the Liberty. I hate to single out Swin Cash, but she’s a perfect example for this. What actually does she do? I wouldn’t be surprised if they paid her six figures just to be a concierge to the new players every year. This sort of thing probably is commonplace in businesses... people need jobs, but with a fledgling business like the WNBA, you need to be frugal with the truly unnecessary expenses wherever you can.



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CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 12/04/18 2:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Delete


tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 12/04/18 4:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GM should be a zero-sum position with regard to the league. If every GM in the league was a poor judge of talent, there wouldn't be any lower amount of talent in the league. That is the same with coaches as far as talent, but it could be argued that good coaches can elevate the play of a team. But if they elevate the defense and offense equally, the final scores could be the same as with rebkell members coaching making the final product potentially just as entertaining.




Last edited by tfan on 12/05/18 1:32 am; edited 3 times in total
tfan



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PostPosted: 12/04/18 5:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Atlanta shows the pictures of all their higher level staff. It appears they don't have a leader right now.

https://dream.wnba.com/staff-directory/




Last edited by tfan on 12/04/18 5:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
Randy



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PostPosted: 12/04/18 5:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
An interesting article ...

So one underlying assumption is that the WNBA owners are actually making a profit off of the league, and that profit -- or part of it -- should be going to the players.

This may or may not be true, but it doesn't seem likely to me.


I didn't quite read it as assuming the the league makes money, just that sports teams have at times forgone operating profits and paid more for players. Of course, the assumptions owners might have made about future value of their franchise (or the ego value of owning a sports team) might have made wealthy owners insensitive to short run losses.

I think an underlying question is this - if the NBA and WNBA teams decided to offer the players 50% of revenue but in exchange the players had to give up overseas jobs* - would the players take it? I'd say no they wouldn't. I think the players showing up late, sitting out seasons, leaving mid season, etc is one of the biggest factors that makes the WNBA look second rate and needs to be fixed if they want the league to grow. Otherwise, it is really just a minor league farm system for overseas clubs and national teams. Another issue that must be resolved is the players practice of forcing trades. How many times have fans become attached to players and then wake up one day and find their star thinks their team or city sucks and they want out so much they won't even play? Doesn't really make fans want to support their team.

*After all NBA players aren't going all over the world, missing regular season and playoff games due to overseas commitments.


SpaceJunkie



Joined: 10 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: 12/05/18 9:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
If the current salary level of those positions gets you the level of coaching and front office we have now, can you imagine what would happen if you cut these salaries in half? You might end up with Alan Barcoff as a coach and SpaceJunkie as a GM, and nobody wants to see that.


Though the only reason nobody wants to see me as a GM is because they know that since I want my team to win, their favorite team won't be able to trade, say, a 2nd round pick, to me in exchange for guaranteed championships/Finals appearances. Wink


ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 12/05/18 11:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
ClayK wrote:
An interesting article ...

So one underlying assumption is that the WNBA owners are actually making a profit off of the league, and that profit -- or part of it -- should be going to the players.

This may or may not be true, but it doesn't seem likely to me.


I didn't quite read it as assuming the the league makes money, just that sports teams have at times forgone operating profits and paid more for players. Of course, the assumptions owners might have made about future value of their franchise (or the ego value of owning a sports team) might have made wealthy owners insensitive to short run losses.

I think an underlying question is this - if the NBA and WNBA teams decided to offer the players 50% of revenue but in exchange the players had to give up overseas jobs* - would the players take it? I'd say no they wouldn't. I think the players showing up late, sitting out seasons, leaving mid season, etc is one of the biggest factors that makes the WNBA look second rate and needs to be fixed if they want the league to grow. Otherwise, it is really just a minor league farm system for overseas clubs and national teams. Another issue that must be resolved is the players practice of forcing trades. How many times have fans become attached to players and then wake up one day and find their star thinks their team or city sucks and they want out so much they won't even play? Doesn't really make fans want to support their team.

*After all NBA players aren't going all over the world, missing regular season and playoff games due to overseas commitments.


The key here is the value of the franchises. If a franchise appreciates in value by $1 million and the operating loss is $750,000, it's still good business.

But if the franchise has zero value, and doesn't go up, then everything falls to the profit/loss of the operations.

Also, I am unconvinced that players missing time for overseas commitments has a major impact on the profitability of teams and/or the league. In a way, it's like an injury -- someone else plays more for a while and the games go on.

The optics might not be great, but how many fans don't go to games or watch on TV because Christina Crossover is playing in Turkey?



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Nixtreefan



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PostPosted: 12/05/18 12:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Nixtreefan wrote:
Maybe the coaches are getting too much money or some of them as it seems relative to the season and the fact that some are getting more than double the top players.


Coaching and GM are important positions because you have one person that can affect the success of a team as compared to one player as a part of 12-member team. If the current salary level of those positions gets you the level of coaching and front office we have now, can you imagine what would happen if you cut these salaries in half? You might end up with Alan Barcoff as a coach and SpaceJunkie as a GM, and nobody wants to see that. That being said, I do believe there is plenty of front office bloat with all these unneeded positions, especially with a team like the Liberty. I hate to single out Swin Cash, but she’s a perfect example for this. What actually does she do? I wouldn’t be surprised if they paid her six figures just to be a concierge to the new players every year. This sort of thing probably is commonplace in businesses... people need jobs, but with a fledgling business like the WNBA, you need to be frugal with the truly unnecessary expenses wherever you can.


Agree on being frugal with the expenses but just wonder how much is too much to pay the coaches for a short season when they are coaching the best players in the world, can it be that difficult hehe. The hard part would seem to be getting the right pieces to put together who complement and actually play team ball.


awhom111



Joined: 19 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: 12/05/18 8:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nixtreefan wrote:
Shades wrote:
Nixtreefan wrote:
Maybe the coaches are getting too much money or some of them as it seems relative to the season and the fact that some are getting more than double the top players.


Coaching and GM are important positions because you have one person that can affect the success of a team as compared to one player as a part of 12-member team. If the current salary level of those positions gets you the level of coaching and front office we have now, can you imagine what would happen if you cut these salaries in half? You might end up with Alan Barcoff as a coach and SpaceJunkie as a GM, and nobody wants to see that. That being said, I do believe there is plenty of front office bloat with all these unneeded positions, especially with a team like the Liberty. I hate to single out Swin Cash, but she’s a perfect example for this. What actually does she do? I wouldn’t be surprised if they paid her six figures just to be a concierge to the new players every year. This sort of thing probably is commonplace in businesses... people need jobs, but with a fledgling business like the WNBA, you need to be frugal with the truly unnecessary expenses wherever you can.


Agree on being frugal with the expenses but just wonder how much is too much to pay the coaches for a short season when they are coaching the best players in the world, can it be that difficult hehe. The hard part would seem to be getting the right pieces to put together who complement and actually play team ball.


But there is a market for coaches so they actually have leverage. We already see coaches leaving for midlevel college jobs so the pickings could be even slimmer at lower salary levels. If the maximum coach salary was the same as the maximum player salary, then there would be five staff at some college programs making more than that amount.
pilight



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PostPosted: 12/05/18 8:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Assistant coaches make more than the top players...



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 12/06/18 3:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Of course I'm biased, but coaching is not that simple -- and coaching elite athletes at an elite level is the most difficult kind of coaching.

It's one thing to get the sixth graders on your kid's team to stand around in a 2-3 zone; it's quite another to get reserves to buy in while running an option-based offense that requires those reserves to defend with game-level intensity in practice .



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Nixtreefan



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PostPosted: 12/06/18 3:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

awhom111 wrote:
Nixtreefan wrote:
Shades wrote:
Nixtreefan wrote:
Maybe the coaches are getting too much money or some of them as it seems relative to the season and the fact that some are getting more than double the top players.


Coaching and GM are important positions because you have one person that can affect the success of a team as compared to one player as a part of 12-member team. If the current salary level of those positions gets you the level of coaching and front office we have now, can you imagine what would happen if you cut these salaries in half? You might end up with Alan Barcoff as a coach and SpaceJunkie as a GM, and nobody wants to see that. That being said, I do believe there is plenty of front office bloat with all these unneeded positions, especially with a team like the Liberty. I hate to single out Swin Cash, but she’s a perfect example for this. What actually does she do? I wouldn’t be surprised if they paid her six figures just to be a concierge to the new players every year. This sort of thing probably is commonplace in businesses... people need jobs, but with a fledgling business like the WNBA, you need to be frugal with the truly unnecessary expenses wherever you can.


Agree on being frugal with the expenses but just wonder how much is too much to pay the coaches for a short season when they are coaching the best players in the world, can it be that difficult hehe. The hard part would seem to be getting the right pieces to put together who complement and actually play team ball.


But there is a market for coaches so they actually have leverage. We already see coaches leaving for midlevel college jobs so the pickings could be even slimmer at lower salary levels. If the maximum coach salary was the same as the maximum player salary, then there would be five staff at some college programs making more than that amount.


So you are saying WNBA coaches work year round?

It will be interesting if the players decide the same and don't play in the W as they get more money elsewhere.


Luuuc



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PostPosted: 12/11/18 8:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

David Berri (the economist whose WNBA article was pulled from Forbes at the NBA's request) was interviewed on Sarah Spain's "That's What She Said" podcast:
http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=25508175

He talks about some general basketball statistical stuff before delving into the women's game - the ways female sports fans are treated, and then his Forbes stuff and the economics of sport.
I think he makes some pretty good points too.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 12/11/18 10:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
David Berri (the economist whose WNBA article was pulled from Forbes at the NBA's request) was interviewed on Sarah Spain's "That's What She Said" podcast:
http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=25508175

He talks about some general basketball statistical stuff before delving into the women's game - the ways female sports fans are treated, and then his Forbes stuff and the economics of sport.
I think he makes some pretty good points too.


Really interesting on all topics mentioned. I especially like the part about guys having strong opinions based on absolutely no factual information. Laughing I would recommend this podcast to everyone. Thanks for posting.



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