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GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: 10/19/18 5:49 pm    ::: Khashoggi killing Reply Reply with quote

I don't understand why this is such a big story or why the U.S. is expected to be involved.

I don't mean to sound callous, but in the context of all the daily killings, murders and genocides in the Middle East, Africa, Asia and South America, why is this one killing getting so much press? So the Saudis take out one of their own citizens in their own country, which is what their embassy in Turkey is. So what? This stuff goes on all the time in totalitarian regimes, and in much greater numbers, especially when security services are concerned.

Additionally, why is it up to the United States to "do something"? What's it got to do with us at all? Why shouldn't Holland or Sweden or Brazil or Canada or Germany or China or Turkey have to "do something"?

Puzzled by the media and U.S. political obsession.
CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 10/19/18 6:02 pm    ::: Re: Khashoggi killing Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
I don't understand why this is such a big story or why the U.S. is expected to be involved.

I don't mean to sound callous, but in the context of all the daily killings, murders and genocides in the Middle East, Africa, Asia and South America, why is this one killing getting so much press? So the Saudis take out one of their own citizens in their own country, which is what their embassy in Turkey is. So what? This stuff goes on all the time in totalitarian regimes, and in much greater numbers, especially when security services are concerned.

Puzzled by the media and U.S. political obsession.


Perhaps it is a big story in the United States because it can be viewed as what happens when you have the leader of the free world attacking the media as the enemy of the people, bragging about and celebrating attacks on journalists, etc.


tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 10/19/18 11:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

1) He was living in the United States (although may have lived in Turkey part of the year) and writing articles for the Washington Post.
2) There is a security camera picture of him walking into the embassy and not walking out. It is harder to dismiss a murder when you are presented with a visual of the man walking in to meet his murderers. A lot of murders of this fashion would have to be reported that a person has "disappeared" or been "jailed".
3) Turkey - which appears to have followed the tried and true practice of bugging an embassy on their soil - says he was tortured before being murdered and was murdered in a horrific way.
4) His crime is being critical of the repressive, despotic Saudi Regime which has been rounding up and "disappearing" people in the country and Europe, and probably also wanting to make Saudi Arabia a democracy (which is being floated or whispered by Republicans as a reason to condone or accept the killing). Criticizing a country where women can receive the death penalty for adultery.


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: 10/20/18 12:05 am    ::: Re: Khashoggi killing Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
I don't understand why this is such a big story or why the U.S. is expected to be involved.


Coming from an educated man, Glenn, that's a bit disappointing.

Khashoggi was a journalist that spoke plain truth about the egregious trampling of human rights in his homeland. He had sanctuary here, and status in working for a mainstream news outlet. His voice gave the outside world a perspective on a government that thinks nothing of torturing and killing dissidents, including those who advocate for gay rights, women's rights, etc.

Yes, THAT'S not a New Thing in this world. However, when the government in question HAS FAR ABOVE-AVERAGE TIES TO THE USA [Land of Free Democracy, With Liberty and Justice For All, 'member?], then it begs the question: why SHOULDN'T we Americans find it to be alarming?

The absurd reactions and explanations given by the Saudi government are only meant to placate the outside world. "Davos in the Desert", etc., is all about economic investment to benefit the Saudis.

All of this points to a most highly Inconvenient Truth about American values: We SAY we are all for democratic freedoms for all people, but, if there's LARGE sums of money involved, t'hell with their horrible treatment of their citizens: we'll take the $$$.

Fill in the blanks with the name of a Middle-Eastern country that fits the bill:

___________ : has huge oil reserves, is a Muslim Theocracy, is ruled by a dictator who uses brutal tactics against his own people.

___________ : has huge oil reserves, is a Muslim Theocracy, is ruled by a dictator who uses brutal tactics against his own people.

Your choices: Iraq, Saudi Arabia. Hmmm. Funny, isn't it? USA treats them rather differently.

Bush invaded Iraq because of "atrocities". Hussein hadn't played nicely with Americans (read: Bush, Sr.), etc., and off we go.

The Bushes cultivated a lovely relationship with Saudi Arabia, with MUCH, MUCH mutual benefit in the flow of monies.

Kashoggi's case isn't unique in its components, but it IS unique in how it shines a bright spotlight on the duplicity that is our American Way: if there's HUGE money involved, our moral compass is out of commission.

GlennMacGrady wrote:
I don't understand why this is such a big story or why the U.S. is expected to be involved.


The USA would much rather NOT be involved, but when you're sycophantic enabler of an uber-wealthy world dictator, you must take a stand on such an egregious murder, or you are complicit in condoning it, and all it represents. And I'm positive Trump will have terrible nightmares on how to approach this, given his rock-solid moral core and attitudes towards the media. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes



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tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 10/20/18 2:27 am    ::: Re: Khashoggi killing Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:


All of this points to a most highly Inconvenient Truth about American values: We SAY we are all for democratic freedoms for all people, but, if there's LARGE sums of money involved, t'hell with their horrible treatment of their citizens: we'll take the $$$.


But goings-on in Africa have shown the flip side. If there is no money or Israel involved we are willing to overlook things as well. The Clinton administration infamously ignored the genocide of the Tutsis in 1994. And there have likely been horrible actions in Africa that got ignored during all of our administrations. Lots of terrible stuff going on in Nigeria and Yemen now, to name two.


pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 10/20/18 8:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Journalists stick together



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Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: 10/20/18 9:36 am    ::: Re: Khashoggi killing Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
But goings-on in Africa have shown the flip side. If there is no money or Israel involved we are willing to overlook things as well. The Clinton administration infamously ignored the genocide of the Tutsis in 1994. And there have likely been horrible actions in Africa that got ignored during all of our administrations. Lots of terrible stuff going on in Nigeria and Yemen now, to name two.

No argument there. The whole debacle in Sudan drew little-to-no American intervention. China is another example of a Huge Trade Partner with egregious human rights violations that we don't call them out on.

Khashoggi resided here in our country, working for a prominent American publication. His demise is well-documented. Yet the OP ponders why *we* should get involved??

Yet another case of how America is NOT the moral beacon of the world, but more the Model of Hypocrisy: Make our citizens believe we fight injustice and denounce depravity, but let it pass with a wink if there's Big Money involved. Evil or Very Mad



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Stonington_QB



Joined: 05 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: 10/22/18 9:16 pm    ::: Re: Khashoggi killing Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Khashoggi was a journalist

THAT was the answer to the original question. Because he was a journalist. And worked for the Washington Post. Because if he were, say, a UN Ambassador for example, the only thing the media would have cared about is covering up for the individual who did nothing to save him. And said UN Ambassador was a U.S. citizen. And nobody in the media cared.

I don't condone what they did to this man. It was terrible. But it's selective outrage over a Saudi citizen because he was a journalist.

I think the culture over at the Washington Post led to this man's demise. Here in America we have the freedom of the press. We have a press that is quite hostile towards our President. Some of you may like that, and some of you may not. But I believe that this culture emboldened Khashoggi to speak out against the royal family in Saudi Arabia with a false sense of impunity.

Saudi Arabia was on the verge of bringing their country into the 21st century with more progressive policies, such as allowing women to drive, and building a new city that incorporated silicon valley and Hollywood among other things. Jamal Khashoggi was against all of that, so it's puzzling to me why non-journalists are so outraged. All of those progressive steps forward in Saudi Arabia are over now because of this whole thing. Jamal Khashoggi has become a martyr for the Wahhabi Islamists that were AGAINST a progressive Saudi Arabia.


Luuuc



Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: 10/22/18 10:41 pm    ::: Re: Khashoggi killing Reply Reply with quote

Stonington_QB wrote:
Saudi Arabia was on the verge of bringing their country into the 21st century

If you'd said 20th century I might have at least found some reasons to agree, though I'm not even really buying that to be honest. They need to hire a much better publicity agency.

But if by "Culture over at the Washington Post" you just mean "standard journalism in free countries" then yeah, it's pretty clear that writing non-glowing things about the regime was a factor.
The cover-ups and confessions have been farcically bad.
Their shitty publicity agency must have been on hiatus this month or something.



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PUmatty



Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 10/23/18 7:16 pm    ::: Re: Khashoggi killing Reply Reply with quote

There are no lengths that Republicans won't go to and no lies they won't tell to justify brutality. The responses to this killing are another sad example of what the rightwing extremists are in this country.


Randy



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: 10/30/18 6:59 pm    ::: Re: Khashoggi killing Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
Stonington_QB wrote:
Saudi Arabia was on the verge of bringing their country into the 21st century

If you'd said 20th century I might have at least found some reasons to agree, though I'm not even really buying that to be honest. They need to hire a much better publicity agency.

But if by "Culture over at the Washington Post" you just mean "standard journalism in free countries" then yeah, it's pretty clear that writing non-glowing things about the regime was a factor.
The cover-ups and confessions have been farcically bad.
Their shitty publicity agency must have been on hiatus this month or something.


Moving into the 20th century for Saudi Arabia might at least be progress for them - unlike the vision of Trump and his followers seeking to move America back to the first half of the 19th century if not before that.


tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 10/31/18 8:30 am    ::: Re: Khashoggi killing Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
Stonington_QB wrote:
Saudi Arabia was on the verge of bringing their country into the 21st century

If you'd said 20th century I might have at least found some reasons to agree, though I'm not even really buying that to be honest. They need to hire a much better publicity agency.

But if by "Culture over at the Washington Post" you just mean "standard journalism in free countries" then yeah, it's pretty clear that writing non-glowing things about the regime was a factor.
The cover-ups and confessions have been farcically bad.
Their shitty publicity agency must have been on hiatus this month or something.


Moving into the 20th century for Saudi Arabia might at least be progress for them - unlike the vision of Trump and his followers seeking to move America back to the first half of the 19th century if not before that.


Seems a tad much to go back to slavery.


Randy



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: 10/31/18 3:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fair point - I probably went too far.


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 11196
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PostPosted: 10/31/18 3:43 pm    ::: Re: Khashoggi killing Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Randy wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
Stonington_QB wrote:
Saudi Arabia was on the verge of bringing their country into the 21st century

If you'd said 20th century I might have at least found some reasons to agree, though I'm not even really buying that to be honest. They need to hire a much better publicity agency.

But if by "Culture over at the Washington Post" you just mean "standard journalism in free countries" then yeah, it's pretty clear that writing non-glowing things about the regime was a factor.
The cover-ups and confessions have been farcically bad.
Their shitty publicity agency must have been on hiatus this month or something.


Moving into the 20th century for Saudi Arabia might at least be progress for them - unlike the vision of Trump and his followers seeking to move America back to the first half of the 19th century if not before that.


Seems a tad much to go back to slavery.


Not necessarily, when one considers the near-slavery of many, many Asians that countries like Saudi Arabia depend upon to do their menial tasks. Human trafficking is alive and well in that part of the world.



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tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 10/31/18 9:46 pm    ::: Re: Khashoggi killing Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
tfan wrote:
Randy wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
Stonington_QB wrote:
Saudi Arabia was on the verge of bringing their country into the 21st century

If you'd said 20th century I might have at least found some reasons to agree, though I'm not even really buying that to be honest. They need to hire a much better publicity agency.

But if by "Culture over at the Washington Post" you just mean "standard journalism in free countries" then yeah, it's pretty clear that writing non-glowing things about the regime was a factor.
The cover-ups and confessions have been farcically bad.
Their shitty publicity agency must have been on hiatus this month or something.


Moving into the 20th century for Saudi Arabia might at least be progress for them - unlike the vision of Trump and his followers seeking to move America back to the first half of the 19th century if not before that.


Seems a tad much to go back to slavery.


Not necessarily, when one considers the near-slavery of many, many Asians that countries like Saudi Arabia depend upon to do their menial tasks. Human trafficking is alive and well in that part of the world.


He was referring to Trump and his supporters and saying they wanted to go back to the days when slavery was legal in America.


pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 10/31/18 10:04 pm    ::: Re: Khashoggi killing Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Howee wrote:
tfan wrote:
Randy wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
Stonington_QB wrote:
Saudi Arabia was on the verge of bringing their country into the 21st century

If you'd said 20th century I might have at least found some reasons to agree, though I'm not even really buying that to be honest. They need to hire a much better publicity agency.

But if by "Culture over at the Washington Post" you just mean "standard journalism in free countries" then yeah, it's pretty clear that writing non-glowing things about the regime was a factor.
The cover-ups and confessions have been farcically bad.
Their shitty publicity agency must have been on hiatus this month or something.


Moving into the 20th century for Saudi Arabia might at least be progress for them - unlike the vision of Trump and his followers seeking to move America back to the first half of the 19th century if not before that.


Seems a tad much to go back to slavery.


Not necessarily, when one considers the near-slavery of many, many Asians that countries like Saudi Arabia depend upon to do their menial tasks. Human trafficking is alive and well in that part of the world.


He was referring to Trump and his supporters and saying they wanted to go back to the days when slavery was legal in America.


When Roy Moore was asked when America was great, as in "Make America Great Again", he said the 1850's. Trump endorsed and actively campaigned for him in the general election.



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tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 11/02/18 2:05 am    ::: Re: Khashoggi killing Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
tfan wrote:


He was referring to Trump and his supporters and saying they wanted to go back to the days when slavery was legal in America.


When Roy Moore was asked when America was great, as in "Make America Great Again", he said the 1850's. Trump endorsed and actively campaigned for him in the general election.


Gingerly would be a better adverb than actively. Trump, after stating he would not campaign for Moore, did have a Moore-less rally in Pensacola, Florida (25 miles from Alabama) four days before the Alabama Senator special election.

I don't know why Moore said what he did (it seems impossible that someone would think they could talk about the slavery days being great in 2017, even if they believed it), but there is this context: at a previous campaign event, he had talked about how there is fighting between Americans that (if I am reading it right) didn't exist before the civil war.

Quote:
"There's time in our history where we did. Once such time was [after] war between the states" Moore said. "Brother against brother, North against South, party against party. What's changed? Now we have blacks and whites fighting, reds and yellows fighting, Democrats and Republicans fighting, men and women fighting. What's going to unite us? What's going to bring us back together? A president? A Congress? No. It's going to be God."


pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 11/02/18 7:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Surely neither he nor you believe the 1850's, the decade of Bleeding Kansas, lacked conflict between Americans



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