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tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 04/26/18 3:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
TotalCardinalMove wrote:
So? Being rich doesn’t mean you have to just throw your money around.


Wait... do all WNBA fans consider investing in the league as “throwing your money around”? I guess I’ll ask you what I asked Clay. Are the current WNBA owners fools? Are we just benefiting from their foolishness?


I don't understand the question. Are you disputing that most (or at least half - no one has claimed any more than that) WNBA teams lose money? (And none made a penny per the WNBA president up to and including 2010). Are you claiming that the owners of the teams losing money are doing it because they see it as a good long term investment for their money, and not because they get enjoyment from owning a team?

Quote:

TotalCardinalMove wrote:
If he doesn’t think it’s worth the investment why should he do it? None of what you said should dictate what he chooses to do with his own money.


We really don’t know what he thinks about the idea of owning a team. You seem to be assuming he doesn’t want to because you think it’s a waste of money.


What is your assumption as to why he doesn't do it?

Quote:

TotalCardinalMove wrote:
Most rich people aren’t going to throw their money away annually just to be “philanthropic”, and there’s nothing wrong with that because it’s his decision and money.


You know what rich people do by personal experience? I know it’s his decision. That’s why you talk to the people who have the money and power to make things happen. He seems like the ideal owner, and if he doesn’t want to do it, why should we expect anybody to do it?


I would put existing NBA owners without a WNBA team above Bryant. Other people without his estimated $350 million net worth might want to do it because they are passionate fans of the WNBA (like the first non-Lakers Sparks owners) or see it as a cause (like Michael Alter or the second non-Lakers owner of the Sparks ).

Quote:

I tweeted Magic about the idea of buying the Sparks before he actually did it. Now I’m doing the same with Kobe. If you love the WNBA, don’t hate on me. Wish me luck.


Good luck. But Magic Johnson didn't buy the Sparks. He went to some of the guys who co-owned the Dodgers with him, including controlling Dodgers owner Mark Walter, and a group of them bought the Sparks. So Magic Johnson turned down a chance to own the Sparks by himself. His net worth was estimated to be half a billion dollars in 2014, and he turned down a chance to own the Sparks by himself.


tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 04/26/18 4:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:

Of course to whom to give said charity to is up to the individual. But the tenents of the religion would argue that one has a moral imperative to be "philanthropic". And if Kobe does belive in what the WNBA stands for, why not extend himself in that direction?


Does the WNBA stand for something more than "pro basketball league for women"?


StevenHW



Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 10393
Location: Sacramento, California


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PostPosted: 04/26/18 8:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Folks, it was just a humorous article. Don’t take it too seriously!

Besides, if there is a Canadian team in the WNBA future, it is more likely going to be in Toronto and not Montreal.



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ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 04/26/18 9:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I had a discussion with a part owner of an NBA franchise, which I previously mentioned, and he said the team had looked very hard at a WNBA franchise, but that it basically was going to lose $2 million a year and had no value.

The fact that James Dolan could not sell the Liberty is further evidence that the teams have little or no value, and that even a team that drew lots of fans struggled to turn a profit.

I do question whether half the teams "made" money, but certainly some do. The question is whether they "make" enough money (as opposed to tax writeoffs, depreciation, etc.) to offset the years of losses and investment involved in starting up a franchise.

All that said, Kobe Bryant would seem to be a likely owner for a WNBA team, and encouraging him to do so is a great idea. Where exactly he could put a franchise that would only lose $2 million a year is another issue, assuming that losing that much money is an acceptable number.

The more potential owners there are -- or really, even one -- the better for the WNBA and the game. If not Kobe, maybe someone else, but regardless, hopefully some will emerge.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 04/26/18 10:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NBA owners also claim NBA teams lose tens of millions of dollars each year. It's nonsense.

As for franchise value, right now they have little. That makes this the perfect time to invest if you believe the league has a future.



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Shades



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 04/26/18 10:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
And none made a penny per the WNBA president up to and including 2010


Thanks for pointing out a positive financial trend. I had a feeling you would be helpful and not looking for an argument just for the sake of arguing.

tfan wrote:
not because they get enjoyment from owning a team?


You need to read back some more. Why do I need to repeat everything? If you enjoy owning a marginally profitable team, should that be considered a waste of money?

tfan wrote:

What is your assumption as to why he doesn't do it?


I’m assuming it hasn’t occurred to him to buy a team. If someone gives him the idea, maybe he’ll check into it. Maybe he already has.



tfan wrote:
I would put existing NBA owners without a WNBA team above Bryant.


Good luck pursuing that avenue since most of those NBA owners have already bailed on the WNBA. Lacob has already shown a strong interest. No need to work on him. To me it makes more sense to pursue owners who recognize the WNBA as a legit sport.... owners that acknowledge that women’s team sports are important for society.

tfan wrote:
Other people without his estimated $350 million net worth might want to do it because they are passionate fans of the WNBA (like the first non-Lakers Sparks owners)


Yes, but we’ve seen they aren’t always the best choice, like the last Sparks ownership.

tfan wrote:
(see it as a cause like Michael Alter )


He’s the best owner ever.

tfan wrote:
But Magic Johnson didn't buy the Sparks. He went to some of the guys who co-owned the Dodgers with him, including controlling Dodgers owner Mark Walter, and a group of them bought the Sparks.


He’s still a buyer whether it’s by himself or with a group. Most teams are bought that way. Even Glen Taylor doesn’t own the Lynx entirely by himself but to point that out every time Lynx ownership is brought up would be a huge waste of time because it’s pointless and anal. Magic Johnson is the face of the Sparks ownership.

tfan wrote:
So Magic Johnson turned down a chance to own the Sparks by himself. His net worth was estimated to be half a billion dollars in 2014, and he turned down a chance to own the Sparks by himself.


Do you have anything that says he turned down the opportunity to own the team himself? Seems like you’re just jumping to the conclusion to that you want. Magic buys teams as a part of the collective. If he isn’t excluded from ownership of the Dodgers why would he exclude his partners from buying the Sparks? They buy things together. But I’m fairly sure the collective wouldn’t have been interested in the Sparks had it not been for Magic’s interest in the team. It’s his baby to nurture. There’s probably tax advantages to buying as a collective.

Whether Kobe buys the team himself or with partners, it does not matter. Not sure why anybody would make an issue out of it.



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Last edited by Shades on 04/26/18 11:17 am; edited 2 times in total
Nixtreefan



Joined: 14 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: 04/26/18 10:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Kobe Bryant doesn't live in LA. For some reason people think LA is the whole southern Cal area Laughing He lives further south so there could be another market. He coaches his daughter and she will soon be of age to enter the dreaded AAU circuits. IMO he would be a great target for some charitable contribution.


Shades



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 04/26/18 11:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nixtreefan wrote:
Kobe Bryant doesn't live in LA. For some reason people think LA is the whole southern Cal area Laughing He lives further south so there could be another market. He coaches his daughter and she will soon be of age to enter the dreaded AAU circuits. IMO he would be a great target for some charitable contribution.


San Diego, perhaps?

As pointed out before, he’s from Philadelphia. That could be another target city.



If Kobe buys a team in Philadelphia, maybe he can eventually hire this guy to coach them.
Oh, that’s Kobe’s daughter.



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Richyyy



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: 04/26/18 11:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
The fact that James Dolan could not sell the Liberty is further evidence that the teams have little or no value, and that even a team that drew lots of fans struggled to turn a profit.

Once again, just because he didn't sell, doesn't mean he couldn't.



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ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 04/26/18 11:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
ClayK wrote:
The fact that James Dolan could not sell the Liberty is further evidence that the teams have little or no value, and that even a team that drew lots of fans struggled to turn a profit.

Once again, just because he didn't sell, doesn't mean he couldn't.


Excellent point. He couldn't sell it at a price that made sense to him.

The fact that no other franchise, that we know of, has ever sold for any amount of actual money, however, leads one to believe that this case was no different.



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Shades



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 04/26/18 12:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Here’s a flashback to 1/2014 when Madison announced that they wanted to sell the Sparks.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-la-sparks-ownership-group-gives-up-franchise-2014jan02-story,amp.html

Quote:
Richie said that several groups have expressed interest in owning a WNBA team and the league is now exploring those options in regards to the Sparks. She said that while final numbers aren't in yet from this past season, almost half the franchises were profitable this year. The Sparks weren't one of them.

"After we went through the budgeting process we saw we'd lose over a million again in 2014," Madison said. "We lost our marquee sponsorship with Farmer's because they had to redirect local spending to Farmer's Field."


Okay, projecting a loss of over a million after losing the marquee sponsor isn’t as bad as losing this fabled $2 million amount.

And all this was before ESPN doubled the broadcast fees paid the WNBA to $25 million. So the environment is even better than when Madison bailed.

https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2016/05/09/Media/ESPN-WNBA.aspx

So where is this undocumented and irresponsible number of $2 million coming from?



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toad455



Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: 04/26/18 12:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There were apparently three different ownership groups ready to buy the Liberty, but I'm guessing Dolan's asking price was too much.



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justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: 04/26/18 12:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
justintyme wrote:

Of course to whom to give said charity to is up to the individual. But the tenents of the religion would argue that one has a moral imperative to be "philanthropic". And if Kobe does belive in what the WNBA stands for, why not extend himself in that direction?


Does the WNBA stand for something more than "pro basketball league for women"?


Isn't equality of opportunity and helping redefine our cultural assumptions of athletics (i.e. "pro basketball league for women") enough?



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Richyyy



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: 04/26/18 1:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
There were apparently three different ownership groups ready to buy the Liberty, but I'm guessing Dolan's asking price was too much.

Which still makes no sense. If you believe the naysayers and doom merchants, he's losing money by running the franchise at all, and losing money by not being able to schedule other events at the Garden. Given that situation, if money is your driving consideration, 'seling' the team for $0 is a positive. No one's ultimately going to care if the books say you sold it for $10m, $1m, or a buck - even if the figure ever actually emerges. There's still a weird disconnect there.



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ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 04/26/18 2:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Here’s a flashback to 1/2014 when Madison announced that they wanted to sell the Sparks.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-la-sparks-ownership-group-gives-up-franchise-2014jan02-story,amp.html

Quote:
Richie said that several groups have expressed interest in owning a WNBA team and the league is now exploring those options in regards to the Sparks. She said that while final numbers aren't in yet from this past season, almost half the franchises were profitable this year. The Sparks weren't one of them.

"After we went through the budgeting process we saw we'd lose over a million again in 2014," Madison said. "We lost our marquee sponsorship with Farmer's because they had to redirect local spending to Farmer's Field."


Okay, projecting a loss of over a million after losing the marquee sponsor isn’t as bad as losing this fabled $2 million amount.

And all this was before ESPN doubled the broadcast fees paid the WNBA to $25 million. So the environment is even better than when Madison bailed.

https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2016/05/09/Media/ESPN-WNBA.aspx

So where is this undocumented and irresponsible number of $2 million coming from?


First, I don't believe what anyone says publicly about how much money they made, lost or were offered for a franchise. There is absolutely no motivation to tell the truth, and every motivation to make things look better than they actually are.

The $2 million figure came in a private conversation with a part owner of an NBA franchise, and the context did not involve any leaning on my part for or against the WNBA. I just saw an opportunity to get some unbiased and unfiltered information (I was not part of the media) and that's the number that, unbidden, emerged.

This person had zero reason to lie or embellish figures. Every person involved in the WNBA has every reason to inflate the profitability and value of its franchises.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 04/26/18 2:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
First, I don't believe what anyone says publicly about how much money they made, lost or were offered for a franchise. There is absolutely no motivation to tell the truth, and every motivation to make things look better than they actually are.


As long as there is collective bargaining, the incentive for owners will be to make teams look less profitable. That's why most NBA teams claim to be losing money.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 04/26/18 2:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
ClayK wrote:
First, I don't believe what anyone says publicly about how much money they made, lost or were offered for a franchise. There is absolutely no motivation to tell the truth, and every motivation to make things look better than they actually are.


As long as there is collective bargaining, the incentive for owners will be to make teams look less profitable. That's why most NBA teams claim to be losing money.


An interesting angle, as there are competing needs here. The league wants to present itself as profitable, and since the primary way professional sports owners make money is through the increasing value of the franchises over time, there is a motivation to make things look good.

But, as you point out, the less profitable the league appears, the easier it is to bargain with the players.

My sense would be that the players, along with almost everyone else, believe the league is marginally profitable, if that, and are afraid to push too hard even if owners are making public statements about profitability.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 04/26/18 3:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

4/2018
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tfan



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PostPosted: 04/26/18 8:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
tfan wrote:
And none made a penny per the WNBA president up to and including 2010


Thanks for pointing out a positive financial trend. I had a feeling you would be helpful and not looking for an argument just for the sake of arguing.


The league one time reported 6 teams were profitable. At the time the Sparks were sold it was "almost half the league". So the trend may have reversed. But regardless, it's important to keep in mind when courting owners, that not all teams are profitable.

Quote:
tfan wrote:
not because they get enjoyment from owning a team?


You need to read back some more. Why do I need to repeat everything? If you enjoy owning a marginally profitable team, should that be considered a waste of money?


Most teams are not profitable as of 2014. You appeared to be suggesting that it was foolish to own a team if it wasn't profitable.

Quote:
tfan wrote:
I would put existing NBA owners without a WNBA team above Bryant.


Good luck pursuing that avenue since most of those NBA owners have already bailed on the WNBA. Lacob has already shown a strong interest. No need to work on him. To me it makes more sense to pursue owners who recognize the WNBA as a legit sport.... owners that acknowledge that women’s team sports are important for society.


If they are important for society than a good argument could be made that cities or states should own them.

Quote:
tfan wrote:
Other people without his estimated $350 million net worth might want to do it because they are passionate fans of the WNBA (like the first non-Lakers Sparks owners)


Yes, but we’ve seen they aren’t always the best choice, like the last Sparks ownership.


They were bad for what reason? Because they couldn't sustain the losses. So we have to acknowledge here that at least one WNBA team lost big money.

Quote:
tfan wrote:
But Magic Johnson didn't buy the Sparks. He went to some of the guys who co-owned the Dodgers with him, including controlling Dodgers owner Mark Walter, and a group of them bought the Sparks.


He’s still a buyer whether it’s by himself or with a group. Most teams are bought that way. Even Glen Taylor doesn’t own the Lynx entirely by himself but to point that out every time Lynx ownership is brought up would be a huge waste of time because it’s pointless and anal. Magic Johnson is the face of the Sparks ownership.


But most teams are bought as part of a group because they are very expensive. WNBA teams can be bought by a single rich individual. Maybe there are tax advantages to forming an "investment group", but I think an individual can form the same LLC, or whatever.

Quote:
tfan wrote:
So Magic Johnson turned down a chance to own the Sparks by himself. His net worth was estimated to be half a billion dollars in 2014, and he turned down a chance to own the Sparks by himself.


Do you have anything that says he turned down the opportunity to own the team himself? Seems like you’re just jumping to the conclusion to that you want.


There is no other conclusion to "jump" to. Magic could have said "Oh, the Sparks are for sale, I will now call Laurel Richie and tell her I will buy them". But instead he called his "investment group" buddies to convince them to buy it, with him as a partner. Do you have anything that says he did call Laurel Richie and she turned him down, despite his half-a-billion estimated net worth at the time? Seems like you are just ignoring the obvious.


Quote:
Magic buys teams as a part of the collective. If he isn’t excluded from ownership of the Dodgers why would he exclude his partners from buying the Sparks? They buy things together. But I’m fairly sure the collective wouldn’t have been interested in the Sparks had it not been for Magic’s interest in the team. It’s his baby to nurture. There’s probably tax advantages to buying as a collective.


Magic bought one team as part of a collective. That team cost 2 billlion dollars, so it was out of his price range. The Sparks selling price was close to, if not, $0 dollars. A price he could have afforded. I also don't think the people that bought the Sparks would have done so without the encouragement of Magic.


Quote:
Whether Kobe buys the team himself or with partners, it does not matter. Not sure why anybody would make an issue out of it.


I was pointing out that Magic, who is richer than Kobe, didn't do what you want Kobe to do so you might want to tweet "Kobe - you should find a rich investment group to team up with to buy a WNBA team".


tfan



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PostPosted: 04/27/18 1:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
There were apparently three different ownership groups ready to buy the Liberty, but I'm guessing Dolan's asking price was too much.


Shouldn't we have heard from any such groups though? What is to prevent them from saying publicly: "Wanted to buy the Liberty but couldn't reach a deal". They could even say "We offered X, but MSG wanted Y".


Shades



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PostPosted: 05/12/18 12:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think I’m wearing Kobe down. He certainly seems interested in what is being said about women’s basketball.




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Shades



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PostPosted: 10/06/18 12:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<embed><iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/NV3Y7dbmMxg" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allow full screen></iframe></embed>



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