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MrCam
Joined: 19 Sep 2018 Posts: 164
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Posted: 09/28/18 5:12 pm ::: USA Basketball needs to RETIRE Bird & Taurasi |
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However, which USA guards in the WNBA [Under 25] & College can real-
istically replace them for the 2020 Olympic Games & beyond? FIBA's new
qualification system will give Team USA plenty of opportunities to test &
establish new PG's & SG's for the 2022 FIBA Women's World Cup.
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22477 Location: NJ
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Posted: 09/28/18 9:26 pm ::: |
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MrCam, I know you're new to these boards, but ease up off the hate of certain players.
_________________ LET'S GO LIBERTY!!!!!!
Twitter: @TBRBWAY
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MrCam
Joined: 19 Sep 2018 Posts: 164
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Posted: 09/28/18 9:56 pm ::: |
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toad455 wrote: |
MrCam, I know you're new to these boards, but ease up off the hate of certain players. |
It is not hate at all. It is REALITY!!! Someone asked Geno about Bird and
Taurasi either before the 2014 FIBA World Cup for Women or the 2016
Rio Olympics. The question concerned the ages of these two players and
why USAB continued to call them up. Geno's response was: who do we
have that CAN replace them. As much as as I do not TRUST Geno, he
sounded sincere and gave the impression that he WOULD have replaced
them if he had two younger but equally skilled players to call.
I am a TALENT snob and I only care about what a player can do for Team
USA. The only other requirement I have is that a player is NOT a locker
room cancer.
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 6827
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Posted: 09/28/18 10:51 pm ::: |
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If I was a betting person I would say that (barring injury) Bird and Taurasi will be on the Olympic team in 2020 and they will retire after that.
I do not see the committee forcing them to retire.
I do not think they would have played on this Worlds team if they did not intend to stick around until 2020. Again I could see injury derailing this plan and either one of them could choose to retire (I only see this happening if they have an injury that would allow them to play but at such a lower level that they wouldn't want to.
As it is it is looking like there will be at least two new guards on the tem in 2020 replacing Whalen and Augustus and I doubt McCoughtry will be an option in 2020 either so that is 3 open perimeter spots come 2020 even if Bird and Taurasi hang on until then.
So
Bird/?
Taurasi/?
Moore/?
Stewart/EDD/Wilson/Charles or N. Ogwumike
Griner/Fowles
So even if one or two of the 7 posts end up out the post looks more than full but 3 new perimeter players will be on the team
options
this years other 3 guards at the Worlds
Plum, Loyd and Clarendon
(team USA does have a loyalty factor but doesn't always see Worlds as a sure bet for an Olympic team Sims was on the Worlds in 14 but couldn't break onto the Olympic team in 16 or win back her Worlds spot this go round).
other perimeter players in the most recent camp
Sims, Ogunbowale, Ionescu, Deshields, K. Mitchell, T, Mitchell, A. Gray
top perimeter players not in this camp but in recent camps
Diggins-Smith, C. Gray, McBride, Hayes, KLS, Durr
players who missed camp due to injury who could re-emerge in the next 2 years
McCoughtry, Jefferson, Augustus
super young guns and W young ones who might emerge in the next 2 years
Carter, Fudd, Bueckers, Atkins, Sykes, Cor. Williams, Chr. Williams, K. Charles, Slocum, Mabrey, Canada, Cloud
but with all that said my "realistic" candidates list for future National teams on the perimeter are
Plum, Loyd, Diggins-Smith, C. Gray, McBride, Deshields and further down the road Ionescu, Durr, Ogunbowale, KLS, Carter and Fudd
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MrCam
Joined: 19 Sep 2018 Posts: 164
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Posted: 09/29/18 12:11 am ::: |
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J-Spoon wrote: |
If I was a betting person I would say that (barring injury) Bird and Taurasi will be on the Olympic team in 2020 and they will retire after that.
I do not see the committee forcing them to retire.
I do not think they would have played on this Worlds team if they did not intend to stick around until 2020. Again I could see injury derailing this plan and either one of them could choose to retire (I only see this happening if they have an injury that would allow them to play but at such a lower level that they wouldn't want to.
As it is it is looking like there will be at least two new guards on the tem in 2020 replacing Whalen and Augustus and I doubt McCoughtry will be an option in 2020 either so that is 3 open perimeter spots come 2020 even if Bird and Taurasi hang on until then.
So
Bird/?
Taurasi/?
Moore/?
Stewart/EDD/Wilson/Charles or N. Ogwumike
Griner/Fowles
So even if one or two of the 7 posts end up out the post looks more than full but 3 new perimeter players will be on the team
options
this years other 3 guards at the Worlds
Plum, Loyd and Clarendon
(team USA does have a loyalty factor but doesn't always see Worlds as a sure bet for an Olympic team Sims was on the Worlds in 14 but couldn't break onto the Olympic team in 16 or win back her Worlds spot this go round).
other perimeter players in the most recent camp
Sims, Ogunbowale, Ionescu, Deshields, K. Mitchell, T, Mitchell, A. Gray
top perimeter players not in this camp but in recent camps
Diggins-Smith, C. Gray, McBride, Hayes, KLS, Durr
players who missed camp due to injury who could re-emerge in the next 2 years
McCoughtry, Jefferson, Augustus
super young guns and W young ones who might emerge in the next 2 years
Carter, Fudd, Bueckers, Atkins, Sykes, Cor. Williams, Chr. Williams, K. Charles, Slocum, Mabrey, Canada, Cloud
but with all that said my "realistic" candidates list for future National teams on the perimeter are
Plum, Loyd, Diggins-Smith, C. Gray, McBride, Deshields and further down the road Ionescu, Durr, Ogunbowale, KLS, Carter and Fudd |
These three are TOO old and need to retire: McCoughtry, Jefferson,
Augustus.
Remember, one of the reasons that this Team USA looks so dis-
combobulated is that half of the players have never played WITH
each other at this level. USAB needs to have a sell by date of age
33. You can be no older than 33 by the end of the Olympic or FIBA
World Cup tournament.
USAB instituted a Women's U23 National Team in 2017. I was under
the distinct impression that the purpose of this team was to groom fu-
ture senior national teamers. They will probably use the U23 team for
the FIBA qualifiers. http://www.fiba.basketball/en/womens-calendar
This group is TOO young to make any predictions yet.
Carter SG and a scoring machine, Fudd a very young female Steph
Curry, Bueckers the ultimate teammate and a deadly passer, Atkins,
Sykes, Cor. Williams, Chr. Williams, K. Charles, Slocum not good
enough, Mabrey, Canada, Cloud.
You left out Haley JONES & Jordan "The Predator" HORSTON. Horston
is a ball hawking guard that plays like a small forward. She plays de-
fense and TERRORIZED her opponents in the QF, SF, & the Final @ the
FIBA U17 Tournament.
Of the young guns I like Ogunbowale, Ionescu, & Asia Durr. I think
that Ogunbowale & Durr have the most upside and they should be ready
by the 2022 FIBA World Cup. Ionescu might make a good back-up SG.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9711
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Posted: 09/29/18 12:32 am ::: |
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I say let them play into their sixties. It’s the only way the WBB competitions would have any excitement and competition.
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Luuuc #NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 21951
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Posted: 09/29/18 12:51 am ::: |
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As a non-American I'm totally on board with pushing Bird out of Team USA!
_________________ Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
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Tally24
Joined: 14 Feb 2012 Posts: 2709 Location: Baton Rouge
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Posted: 09/29/18 1:06 am ::: |
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Welcome to the board. I only have one rule: NEVER mention DT and the “r” word in the same sentence. |
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010 Posts: 16464 Location: Holland
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Posted: 09/29/18 5:12 am ::: |
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Luuuc wrote: |
As a non-American I'm totally on board with pushing Bird out of Team USA! |
Yeah Birdies response to this whole thread is talk to the 3rd ring bitches
_________________ "Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
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Force10rulz
Joined: 11 Apr 2009 Posts: 1966 Location: Puget Sound
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Posted: 09/29/18 8:29 am ::: Re: USA Basketball needs to RETIRE Bird & Taurasi |
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MrCam wrote: |
However, which USA guards in the WNBA [Under 25] & College can real-
istically replace them for the 2020 Olympic Games & beyond? FIBA's new
qualification system will give Team USA plenty of opportunities to test &
establish new PG's & SG's for the 2022 FIBA Women's World Cup. |
Please, people said Sue should retire and she had one of her best yrs leading us to our third ‘ship. And Dee is still ballin’ like crazy. Maybe after the next Olympic’s.
_________________ Seattle Storm 3 times Champions
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ucbart
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 2824 Location: New York
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3336
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Posted: 09/29/18 10:07 am ::: |
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MrCam wrote: |
toad455 wrote: |
MrCam, I know you're new to these boards, but ease up off the hate of certain players. |
It is not hate at all. It is REALITY!!! Someone asked Geno about Bird and
Taurasi either before the 2014 FIBA World Cup for Women or the 2016
Rio Olympics. The question concerned the ages of these two players and
why USAB continued to call them up. Geno's response was: who do we
have that CAN replace them. As much as as I do not TRUST Geno, he
sounded sincere and gave the impression that he WOULD have replaced
them if he had two younger but equally skilled players to call.
I am a TALENT snob and I only care about what a player can do for Team
USA. The only other requirement I have is that a player is NOT a locker
room cancer. |
Did anyone else read this, and imagine @MrCam's speaking voice as being like Mister DiMartino from Daria? Also, are you using a version of this website that has WordWrap disabled? #AskingForAFriend
MrCam wrote: |
These three are TOO old and need to retire: McCoughtry, Jefferson,
Augustus. |
Jefferson is too old? Too old to do what?
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
My team no longer exists, so I'll have to settle for hating yours.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3336
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Posted: 09/29/18 10:16 am ::: Re: USA Basketball needs to RETIRE Bird & Taurasi |
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ucbart wrote: |
Might I remind you that Sue and DT have been VERY loyal to USA basketball. |
In what way have Taurasi and the Compiler been loyal to USAB, that Candace Parker was not? Please educate me; my Google-fu appears to be weak, in this regard.
Quote: |
Did you see the qualifying roster? Who exactly would be better than them? |
Well, in the first place, you're creating a false ultimatum: USAB doesn't require players who are "better" than them in order to win gold. There are plenty of players who are good enough: I'm pretty sure that some of them started on teams that competed in the 2018 WNBA playoffs. And, in the second place, if the qualifying roster for USAB did not include players that were good enough to help USA win gold, then the problem was in the selection process, because there is no shortage of talent.
Quote: |
A lot of the younger players, quite frankly are brats, and the last thing they want is to play USA basketball. |
I'm intrigued: please, tell me more about this "brat" problem.
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
My team no longer exists, so I'll have to settle for hating yours.
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MrCam
Joined: 19 Sep 2018 Posts: 164
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11187
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Posted: 09/29/18 10:38 am ::: |
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It would seem to me that the best players should play, regardless of age. If Bird and Taurasi are two of the best 12 that make up a cohesive roster, then they deserve to play. If not, then they should be replaced by those who are better.
The issue, as mentioned, is who those better players might be, and especially for Bird, it's tough to see who that is.
I think it's also important to factor in the kind of competition faced at major international events. In general, there are fewer blindingly quick perimeter players that could take advantage of older players in those events than in the WNBA, so potential defensive liabilities might not be as great.
Ideally, USA Basketball would have cycled in the clear replacements for Bird, Taurasi and the other aging vets by now, but from what I can see there are no clear replacements. Both of those players are still in the top 12 -- and maybe higher.
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3336
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Posted: 09/29/18 11:23 am ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
It would seem to me that the best players should play, regardless of age. If Bird and Taurasi are two of the best 12 that make up a cohesive roster, then they deserve to play. If not, then they should be replaced by those who are better. |
I don't understand why people perpetuate this nonsense? A cohesive roster doesn't require the "best 12." USAB has a tremendous pool of talent to choose from; their margin of error is way bigger than the rest of the world. There's an enormous talent gap between the fourth-best point guard in the United States, and the fourth-best point guard in, say, Spain.
The "cohesive roster" part is way more important than the "best 12" part. The Connecticut Sun's roster, sans Jonquel Jones, is entirely composed of players from the United States. If the United States sent the Connecticut Sun (less Jones) to Tokyo, in place of Team USA, the Connecticut Sun would win the gold medal, and do you know how many players on the Sun are among the "best 12"? Zero, that's how many.
Wide as the US margin for error is, point guard is still the most important position on the court, and the point guard needs to develop a relationship with the other players, moreso than anyone else. Let's say that the Compiler "deserves" to play for USAB until she's ready to retire. I don't think that "deserve" has shit to do with shit, but that's neither here nor there: let's just stipulate the point, for the sake of argument. At some point, she's going to have to retire: Father Time is undefeated. So, the Compiler has indicated that she wants to play in Tokyo? Fine, let's give her that: let's just stipulate, for argument's sake, that she's "earned" it. USAB needs to already be looking ahead to [????] in 2022, and Paris in 2024. The starting point guard in Paris should already be on the team right now, learning as much from the incumbent as she can: raise your hand if you think that's going to be either Layshia Clarendon or Kelsey Plum?
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
My team no longer exists, so I'll have to settle for hating yours.
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Aladyyn
Joined: 23 Jul 2017 Posts: 1564 Location: Czech Republic
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Posted: 09/29/18 11:48 am ::: |
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per36 stats in 23yo seasons
Bird 13.9 PTS, 5.8 AST, 2.8 TO
Plum 13.4 PTS, 5.7 AST, 1.7 TO
*raises hand*
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Nixtreefan
Joined: 14 Nov 2012 Posts: 2539
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Posted: 09/29/18 12:00 pm ::: |
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Ogunnerbowale and dUrr just lost in 3x3 this year as the USA hand picked team without even making the final of their own US competition and the only team with a coach so I think they are not ready and did not fair well.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 09/29/18 12:07 pm ::: |
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Please count me as one more vote for Bird and Taurasi being on the team. Not as a career honor, but because both are still playing well enough to deserve their roster spots and I'm not overwhelmed by the alternatives. And because experience in major competitions is a plus (though not enough in itself to give someone a roster spot.)
_________________ Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014 Posts: 3518
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Posted: 09/29/18 12:09 pm ::: |
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In order to answer this question, you need to define the goal. Is it...
...to put our current best team on the floor now?
...or to put an adequate team on the floor to bring home the gold but including some younger players to bring them along for future competitions?
I would submit the second plan is better, but the men's teams seem to do fine largely using the first strategy.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3336
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Posted: 09/29/18 12:17 pm ::: |
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Bob Lamm wrote: |
Please count me as one more vote for Bird and Taurasi being on the team. Not as a career honor, but because both are still playing well enough to deserve their roster spots and I'm not overwhelmed by the alternatives. And because experience in major competitions is a plus (though not enough in itself to give someone a roster spot.) |
Doesn't that become circular, at some point? Experience in major competitions is a plus, but you can't get experience in major competitions unless you're on the team, and you can't make the team if those spots are always alloted to the players with the most experience.
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
My team no longer exists, so I'll have to settle for hating yours.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3336
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Posted: 09/29/18 12:37 pm ::: |
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FrozenLVFan wrote: |
In order to answer this question, you need to define the goal. Is it...
...to put our current best team on the floor now?
...or to put an adequate team on the floor to bring home the gold but including some younger players to bring them along for future competitions?
I would submit the second plan is better, but the men's teams seem to do fine largely using the first strategy. |
Are you sure? Because, last I checked, there's only one player in the history of the men's program with three Olympic gold medals, and only three players in history with more than two medals, total.
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
My team no longer exists, so I'll have to settle for hating yours.
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MrCam
Joined: 19 Sep 2018 Posts: 164
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Posted: 09/29/18 12:49 pm ::: |
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Silky Johnson wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
It would seem to me that the best players should play, regardless of age. If Bird and Taurasi are two of the best 12 that make up a cohesive roster, then they deserve to play. If not, then they should be replaced by those who are better. |
I don't understand why people perpetuate this nonsense? A cohesive roster doesn't require the "best 12." USAB has a tremendous pool of talent to choose from; their margin of error is way bigger than the rest of the world. There's an enormous talent gap between the fourth-best point guard in the United States, and the fourth-best point guard in, say, Spain.
The "cohesive roster" part is way more important than the "best 12" part. The Connecticut Sun's roster, sans Jonquel Jones, is entirely composed of players from the United States. If the United States sent the Connecticut Sun (less Jones) to Tokyo, in place of Team USA, the Connecticut Sun would win the gold medal, and do you know how many players on the Sun are among the "best 12"? Zero, that's how many.
Wide as the US margin for error is, point guard is still the most important position on the court, and the point guard needs to develop a relationship with the other players, moreso than anyone else. Let's say that the Compiler "deserves" to play for USAB until she's ready to retire. I don't think that "deserve" has shit to do with shit, but that's neither here nor there: let's just stipulate the point, for the sake of argument. At some point, she's going to have to retire: Father Time is undefeated. So, the Compiler has indicated that she wants to play in Tokyo? Fine, let's give her that: let's just stipulate, for argument's sake, that she's "earned" it. USAB needs to already be looking ahead to [????] in 2022, and Paris in 2024. The starting point guard in Paris should already be on the team right now, learning as much from the incumbent as she can: raise your hand if you think that's going to be either Layshia Clarendon or Kelsey Plum? |
Bench Min Pts FG 2Pts 3Pts FT OREB DREB
Sue BIRD 22:01 0 0/3 0/0 0/3 0/0 0 0
0% 0% 0% 0%
REB AST PF TO STL BLK +/- EFF
0 7 1 1 0 0 12 3
These stats only CONFIRM "Silky Johnson"'s point.
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sigur3
Joined: 18 Jun 2013 Posts: 6191 Location: Chicago-ish
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Posted: 09/29/18 12:52 pm ::: |
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This again? lol
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Coyotes
Joined: 28 Jan 2018 Posts: 1467
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Posted: 09/29/18 1:08 pm ::: |
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You guys really want to retire Diana Taurasi after she almost single handedly won that game against Belgium in the second half for you?
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