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Who will win this game? |
Mystics |
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28% |
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Storm |
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71% |
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Total Votes : 52 |
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SportsGuru
Joined: 20 May 2005 Posts: 4977
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Posted: 09/06/18 11:14 am ::: |
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Randy wrote: |
SportsGuru wrote: |
Silky Johnson wrote: |
craigmont wrote: |
I don't know about this line of reasoning. The Storm's success can mostly be put down to winning the draft lottery 4 times when there was an obvious #1 pick.
Is that so much different than EDD wanting to play for Washington? |
The Mystics, as already mentioned, have been a historically poorly run franchise. The only thing they did to "earn" Delle Donne is have the coincidence of being the team that is geographically closest to where she grew up, and you're asking whether that's any different from Seattle winning the lottery multiple times?
Of course it's different. The only way those two things could be similar is if the Storm didn't have the top pick in, say, 2016, and then Breanna Stewart had told the team that took her #1 that she was going to hold out, unless they traded her to Seattle. |
The Mystics must be doing something right because they're still standing after 20 years while other franchise (Charlotte, Cleveland, Detroit, Houston Miami, Orlando, Portland, San Antonio, Sacramento, Tulsa, Utah) are no longer playing in those cities. |
That's a bit ironic because just based on the posts I read here, they have the 2nd most hated owners in the WNBA being second only to the Hideous Lord Jimmy.* Mystics fans have heaped a lot of abuse on the owners and there was much chagrin about the deal to build a new arena** to house the Wizards practice facility and the Mystics home games for the next 20 years. RebKell Fans may hate them, but they have been supportive of their team.
* Apparently not hated enough by Mystics fan to inspire a catchy epithet.
**Said to be too small and in a dangerous part of the community. |
I've been with the Mystics from the start, I know things I will and won't talk about. I will say this about the Mystics New Home and Wizards Practice Facility, the current site wasn't the 1st choice, activist block the site in the Shaw area Ted Leonsis wanted the site to be located. I've had disagreements with Ted but I respect him for being a philanthropist.
Tell me something, imagine being a business man or woman and you own an arena, what would you do if 17 days each year was losing substantial money, move the event to a smaller venue or dissolve the event. The Mystics will have a brand spanking new arena, enjoy it, I plan to enjoy the Mystics new home.
Oh by the way, if you didn't know Abe Pollin was the Mystics owner before Ted Leonsis and MSE.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011 Posts: 10911
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Posted: 09/06/18 11:36 am ::: |
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I knew of Abe Pollin. If I'm right he was the owner back when they were the Baltimore Bullets. As for the current owners, I have no ill feeling about them at all. I'll save that for some of the vocal Mystics fans.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3396
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Posted: 09/06/18 1:13 pm ::: |
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Aladyyn wrote: |
Both teams got lucky. |
Their 'luck' was not a binary proposition. We're not talking about '100 or 0' when it comes to how 'lucky' they were; they weren't equally 'lucky.' Seattle was at least participatory in their circumstances. They made their own 'luck,' to some extent. Washington was literally just there.
Minimizing it by saying "both teams got lucky" is like saying that someone who marries into a rich family is equally as lucky as someone who was born into a rich family.
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
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Aladyyn
Joined: 23 Jul 2017 Posts: 1566 Location: Czech Republic
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Posted: 09/06/18 1:17 pm ::: |
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Silky Johnson wrote: |
Aladyyn wrote: |
Both teams got lucky. |
Their 'luck' was not a binary proposition. We're not talking about '100 or 0' when it comes to how 'lucky' they were; they weren't equally 'lucky.' Seattle was at least participatory in their circumstances. They made their own 'luck,' to some extent. Washington was literally just there.
Minimizing it by saying "both teams got lucky" is like saying that someone who marries into a rich family is equally as lucky as someone who was born into a rich family. |
2013 lottery
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3396
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Posted: 09/06/18 1:25 pm ::: |
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SportsGuru wrote: |
The Mystics must be doing something right because they're still standing after 20 years while other franchise (Charlotte, Cleveland, Detroit, Houston Miami, Orlando, Portland, San Antonio, Sacramento, Tulsa, Utah) are no longer playing in those cities. |
Alright, you have my attention. By all means, please tell me what you think Washington did "right" that those other teams did "wrong"? Particularly Detroit who, as far as I can tell, the only thing they did wrong was have an owner who died, and ended up being inherited by someone who didn't want them?
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3396
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Posted: 09/06/18 1:26 pm ::: |
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Aladyyn wrote: |
2013 lottery |
What about it?
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011 Posts: 10911
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Posted: 09/06/18 2:23 pm ::: |
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Silky Johnson wrote: |
Aladyyn wrote: |
Both teams got lucky. |
Their 'luck' was not a binary proposition. We're not talking about '100 or 0' when it comes to how 'lucky' they were; they weren't equally 'lucky.' Seattle was at least participatory in their circumstances. They made their own 'luck,' to some extent. Washington was literally just there.
Minimizing it by saying "both teams got lucky" is like saying that someone who marries into a rich family is equally as lucky as someone who was born into a rich family. |
Seattle was gifted some of their luck. The WNBA changed the rules on the draft lottery in August 2015 to use the 2 year cumulative record to determine lottery odds. As a result, Seattle's 2 year loss record was given a "head start" by virtue of the fact that Seattle had a worse record in 2014 of all the lottery teams. In the end, even though Seattle had a better record than San Antonio in 2015, the Storm got the best lottery odds when the losses in 2014 were counted. It was completely unfair to change the rules retroactively in the year preceding the Stewart draft. The rule was implemented to prevent tanking abuses like the Mercury getting Griner but did so several years too late an hurt the teams that weren't tanking. The 2 year rule may have been a good idea, but to implement it when it gave one team an advantage was unfair. It would be like changing the 3 point line at halftime in a way that gives one of the teams several more points. It should have been implement for the 2016 seasons and beyond so that it was not retroactive.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3396
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Posted: 09/06/18 2:32 pm ::: |
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By that argument, there's never a good time to change a rule like that, unless you're going to re-draft the entire league. "We can't change the draft rules this year, because the players coming out are too good"? What kind of shit is that? Is the league supposed to wait until they think there's going to be a shitty draft to change the rules? Was it also unfair that they changed the rules on defensive three seconds/illegal defense the same year that Griner got drafted?
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011 Posts: 10911
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Posted: 09/06/18 2:59 pm ::: |
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Silky Johnson wrote: |
By that argument, there's never a good time to change a rule like that, unless you're going to re-draft the entire league. "We can't change the draft rules this year, because the players coming out are too good"? What kind of shit is that? Is the league supposed to wait until they think there's going to be a shitty draft to change the rules? Was it also unfair that they changed the rules on defensive three seconds/illegal defense the same year that Griner got drafted? |
Might have been unfair concerning Griner, but it was a prospective rule change that applied to all teams Had they just made the lottery rule prospective instead of retroactive it would have not favored one team over the rest. A retroactive change in rules or laws is so egregious that the Constitution forbids ex post facto laws.
Last edited by Randy on 09/06/18 3:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SportsGuru
Joined: 20 May 2005 Posts: 4977
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Posted: 09/06/18 2:59 pm ::: |
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Silky Johnson wrote: |
SportsGuru wrote: |
The Mystics must be doing something right because they're still standing after 20 years while other franchise (Charlotte, Cleveland, Detroit, Houston Miami, Orlando, Portland, San Antonio, Sacramento, Tulsa, Utah) are no longer playing in those cities. |
Alright, you have my attention. By all means, please tell me what you think Washington did "right" that those other teams did "wrong"? Particularly Detroit who, as far as I can tell, the only thing they did wrong was have an owner who died, and ended up being inherited by someone who didn't want them? |
The same thing that happen with Detroit could've happen with the Mystics if it wasn't for Sheila Johnson who had more interest in the team staying in DC then Ted Leonsis.
Bet, you and a lot of people didn't know Wes Unseld was the Mystics original General Manager. Wes was one heck of a player but terrible as the General Manager for the Bullets/Wizards and Mystics Wes was like a son to Abe Pollin and Wes generally did what Abe asked of him.
I can say this because of the deal with the DC Gov't the Mystics will have a home at least to 2038. How many other WNBA teams have a deal to 2038 ?
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011 Posts: 10911
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Posted: 09/06/18 3:02 pm ::: |
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That has always made me wonder why the Mystics fans are so down on the owners.
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craigmont
Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1027 Location: Bing-town
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Posted: 09/06/18 3:02 pm ::: |
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Well, what did Washington do "wrong" then? They didn't demand the trade of EDD to them.
On the list of things to be mad about, this doesn't rank very high to me. I understand why EDD's demand for a trade rubs some people the wrong way, but I also understand why she did it.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3396
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Silky Johnson
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Posted: 09/06/18 3:28 pm ::: |
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SportsGuru wrote: |
The same thing that happen with Detroit could've happen with the Mystics if it wasn't for Sheila Johnson who had more interest in the team staying in DC then Ted Leonsis.
Bet, you and a lot of people didn't know Wes Unseld was the Mystics original General Manager. Wes was one heck of a player but terrible as the General Manager for the Bullets/Wizards and Mystics Wes was like a son to Abe Pollin and Wes generally did what Abe asked of him.
I can say this because of the deal with the DC Gov't the Mystics will have a home at least to 2038. How many other WNBA teams have a deal to 2038 ? |
First of all, I am a regular listener to The Tony Kornheiser Show since about 1997; you'd be surprised by what I know about Washington sports. Second of all, how does any of that indicate the Mystics did something right? What did they do right?
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
My team no longer exists, so I'll have to settle for hating yours.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011 Posts: 10911
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SportsGuru
Joined: 20 May 2005 Posts: 4977
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Posted: 09/06/18 3:57 pm ::: |
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Silky Johnson wrote: |
SportsGuru wrote: |
The same thing that happen with Detroit could've happen with the Mystics if it wasn't for Sheila Johnson who had more interest in the team staying in DC then Ted Leonsis.
Bet, you and a lot of people didn't know Wes Unseld was the Mystics original General Manager. Wes was one heck of a player but terrible as the General Manager for the Bullets/Wizards and Mystics Wes was like a son to Abe Pollin and Wes generally did what Abe asked of him.
I can say this because of the deal with the DC Gov't the Mystics will have a home at least to 2038. How many other WNBA teams have a deal to 2038 ? |
First of all, I am a regular listener to The Tony Kornheiser Show since about 1997; you'd be surprised by what I know about Washington sports. Second of all, how does any of that indicate the Mystics did something right? What did they do right? |
You must be ignoring the fact the Mystics after making many personnel mistakes hired Mike Thibault. The Mystics are still playing in DC. Regardless what you may think about the Mystics Organization they're a part of the DMV community.
By the way listening to Tony K doesn't make someone a DC Sports Fan expert.. I was born and raised in DC, go back as far as Bobby Mitchell and Paul Casanova if you know who he was. I can tell you about as a black youngster having only a few players who look like me to cheer for. I can tell you about not having any home professional basketball team to cheer for until Abe moved the Bullets to PG County Maryland in the mid 70's. I can tell you about as a youngster losing my Washington Senators and not seeing Major League Baseball return until 2005. The Mystics historically haven't been perfect but they're my team and they're still standing at 20 years unlike many WNBA teams.
I don't know where you live but it's better to have a WNBA team then no WNBA team.
Heck, I can't remember a DC Fan being happy with any DC Professional Sports Team Owner other than Jack Kent Cooke when he was alive and some disliked him because he moved the Skins out of DC to Prince Georges. County Maryland. Fans are fickle, they generally like Professional Sports team Owners when the teams are winning
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3396
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Posted: 09/06/18 4:04 pm ::: |
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craigmont wrote: |
Well, what did Washington do "wrong" then? They didn't demand the trade of EDD to them. |
You mean, aside from being poorly coached and generally mismanaged for most of their existence?
The point isn't even that Washington did anything "wrong." The point is that Washington getting Elena Delle Donne was not a function of anything that Washington did, or didn't do. So it's a bad faith argument to say that Washington getting EDD "is just like this other thing that happened," because it's not like anything that's ever happened, except for the Charles trade. At least when Fowles and Dupree demanded trades out of Chicago, it was because they were tired of playing for an inept organization and they wanted to play someplace where they could win. As an organization, you can prepare for something like that happening: you can set yourself up as a model franchise, that's always competing for a championship, and make sure that you have desirable assets that you're willing to part with so that, if a star/superstar demands a trade, you're ready to step in make your team better.
Delle Donne wanted to go home. There's nothing a team can do to prepare for that. Literally nothing. The Mystics got Delle Donne because of an accident of birth: like, if she'd been born in Boerne, Texas, instead of Wilmington, Delaware, maybe the Aces are still in San Antonio? It's the same thing with Tina Charles: what did the Liberty do to get Charles, besides be sorry? Like, Maya Moore doesn't seem like the type, but what happens if she wakes up tomorrow and decides that she's homesick? You can do everything right if you're, say, the Wings, and still have no chance of getting her. That situation is nothing like getting lottery picks.
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
My team no longer exists, so I'll have to settle for hating yours.
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craigmont
Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 1027 Location: Bing-town
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Posted: 09/06/18 4:21 pm ::: |
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Quote: |
craigmont wrote:
Well, what did Washington do "wrong" then? They didn't demand the trade of EDD to them.
You mean, aside from being poorly coached and generally mismanaged for most of their existence?
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Well I still don't understand you. And nobody said it was "just like" getting lottery picks.
Being poorly coached and generally mismanaged would tend to get you lottery picks, right? And then it's ok? Is tanking ok? Demanding a trade to get out of a bad situation is ok, but to be close your your disabled sister is not ok?
My only point all along was that teams get players (or don't) for a lot of reasons. Some of them are random or arbitrary.
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Rock Hard
Joined: 02 Aug 2010 Posts: 5437 Location: Chocolate Paradise
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3396
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Posted: 09/06/18 4:39 pm ::: |
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SportsGuru wrote: |
You must be ignoring the fact the Mystics after making many personnel mistakes hired Mike Thibault. The Mystics are still playing in DC. Regardless what you may think about the Mystics Organization they're a part of the DMV community. |
What does that have to do with anything I said? The Mystics are basically still in Washington in spite their management, not because of. Based on that reasoning, the only thing the Mystics have done right was have an ownership group that was willing to lose money on the team, and was committed to keeping them in Washington, and the only thing those other teams did wrong was have the bad luck to have their inaugural ownership assigned to people who weren't actually interested in supporting women's basketball.
Also, not for nothing but, the first four seasons of Mike Thibault's tenure in Washington, the Mystics were a combined eight games below .500, and had made no appearances in the conference finals, so it's not like he'd made them an attractive destination, or anything.
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By the way listening to Tony K doesn't make someone a DC Sports Fan expert. |
I made no claims to being a "DC Sports Fan expert"; you put that on me. I said that you'd be surprised by how much I know about Washington sports. Those two things don't mean the same thing.
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I was born and raised in DC, go back as far as Bobby Mitchell and Paul Casanova if you know who he was. I can tell you about as a black youngster having only a few players who look like me to cheer for. I can tell you about not having any home professional basketball team to cheer for until Abe moved the Bullets to PG County Maryland in the mid 70's. I can tell you about as a youngster losing my Washington Senators and not seeing Major League Baseball return until 2005. The Mystics historically haven't been perfect but they're my team and they're still standing at 20 years unlike many WNBA teams. |
Cool story, but I never challenged your bonafides. And you keep throwing out "We still here, tho," as if that demonstrates some sort of virtue that the Mystics have, that other teams which have either folded or relocated did not have, which is some straight nonsense. You're basically saying, "Well, we must be better than Houston, 'cause Houston ain't here no more!" Like, wut?
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I don't know where you live but it's better to have a WNBA team then no WNBA team. |
Stipulated, but what does that have to do with anything?
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Heck, I can't remember a DC Fan being happy with any DC Professional Sports Team Owner other than Jack Kent Cooke when he was alive and some disliked him because he moved the Skins out of DC to Prince Georges. County Maryland. Fans are fickle, they generally like Professional Sports team Owners when the teams are winning |
Again, what does this have to do with anything? My initial entry into this particular tangential discussion was to say that the Mystics getting their superstar is unlike how Seattle got theirs, and the only thing you have offered in rebuttal has been "The Mystics are still standing, and other teams aren't, so they must have done something right," which 1) doesn't follow logically, and 2) doesn't address my argument, even a little bit. The Liberty are "still standing," too; what's the last thing they did right?
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
My team no longer exists, so I'll have to settle for hating yours.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3396
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Posted: 09/06/18 5:15 pm ::: |
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craigmont wrote: |
Quote: |
craigmont wrote:
Well, what did Washington do "wrong" then? They didn't demand the trade of EDD to them.
You mean, aside from being poorly coached and generally mismanaged for most of their existence?
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Well I still don't understand you. And nobody said it was "just like" getting lottery picks. |
Nobody may have said those exact words, but when someone makes the case that Washington didn't do anything to get Elena Delle Donne, and you reply with:
craigmont wrote: |
I don't know about this line of reasoning. The Storm's success can mostly be put down to winning the draft lottery 4 times when there was an obvious #1 pick.
Is that so much different than EDD wanting to play for Washington? |
... you are then implying an equivalence between those two things which does not exist. I am personally philosophically opposed to tanking, but tanking is something that an organization can do, intentionally, to put themselves in a better position to get top picks. If you're interviewing for a GM job, you can go into your interview and say, "I have a plan for us to be in the Finals in five years, and that plan involves us tanking in Years One and Two." And you can actually put that plan into action. And maybe the randomness of the lottery rewards you, and maybe it doesn't. Whether that's what Seattle did to get Loyd and Stewart (and Jackson and the Compiler) may be a matter of contention, but that's still something that you can actually, actively try to do to make your team better. You know what you can't do to make your team better? Make superstars be born in your nearby radius.
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Demanding a trade to get out of a bad situation is ok, but to be close your your disabled sister is not ok? |
It's not a question of being okay or not, it's a question of false equivalence. My use of the term "at least" regarding the circumstances of Dupree and Fowles' respective departures from Chicago was to point out that they were still situations in which the other teams in the league could have all factored into the outcome, by being good enough to be where those players wanted to go. That does not apply to the Washington/Delle Donne situation, in any respect.
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My only point all along was that teams get players (or don't) for a lot of reasons. Some of them are random or arbitrary. |
And my point is that random and arbitrary aren't synonyms, and there are still some things that you can do to account for randomness. To quote the great American philosopher Travis Dane, chance favors the prepared mind. The arbitrary? Not so much.
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
My team no longer exists, so I'll have to settle for hating yours.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67164 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 09/06/18 5:42 pm ::: |
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https://espnmediazone.com/us/press-releases/2018/09/2018-wnba-finals-tip-off-friday-on-espnews/
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In a unique agreement between ESPN and the WNBA, Friday’s Game 1 will air on ESPNEWS, as well as on stations in the teams’ local markets – JoeTV (KZJO) in Seattle, and the Monumental Sports Network in Washington, D.C. The game will also be streamed live on ESPN3 and available via the ESPN App. The remaining games in the best-of-five series will air on either ABC or ESPN2. |
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SportsGuru
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Randy
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scrappy
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