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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
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 Posted: 08/08/18 7:12 pm ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
| The Sparks just don't look like a title contender this season. Though they can always turn it up to 100 by the playoffs. |
They don’t run. They haven’t for awhile. Agler is yelling at them to run and they just don’t.
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WfanFrJmp
Joined: 24 May 2016
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| Posted: 08/08/18 7:22 pm ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| toad455 wrote: |
| The Sparks just don't look like a title contender this season. Though they can always turn it up to 100 by the playoffs. |
They don’t run. They haven’t for awhile. Agler is yelling at them to run and they just don’t. |
I have no idea why they look so sluggish. They need to wake up!
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 08/08/18 7:56 pm ::: |
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| Liberty come close again. I'm just going to assume Zellous and Prince are done for the season. Hopefully Charles gets a game off next week.
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WfanFrJmp
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| Posted: 08/08/18 7:57 pm ::: |
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Glad they got the W but why do they make things so hard?!!
LA definitely had a heckler right near the mike. Craziness! lol!
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 08/08/18 7:59 pm ::: |
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| Randy wrote: |
| Liberty fan for a day. |
I'm done with this team. I've had it with these losses.
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bballgrl
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 08/08/18 8:28 pm ::: |
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| I’m really ticked at a few of the coaching decisions but I’ll get into that later. A basically one-possession defeat. Every possession must be valued. Including ones where Coleman guards Parker up to her layup.
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sigur3
Joined: 18 Jun 2013
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| Posted: 08/08/18 9:35 pm ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| I’m really ticked at a few of the coaching decisions but I’ll get into that later. A basically one-possession defeat. Every possession must be valued. Including ones where Coleman guards Parker up to her layup. |
As a fan of a different team, Katie Smith has been arguably the worst coach in the league this year IMO. You have a right to be peeved.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
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| Posted: 08/08/18 9:40 pm ::: |
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| Randy wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
| Liberty fan for a day. |
I'm done with this team. I've had it with these losses. |
😂
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Luuuc
#NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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| Posted: 08/08/18 9:41 pm ::: |
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| sigur3 wrote: |
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| I’m really ticked at a few of the coaching decisions but I’ll get into that later. A basically one-possession defeat. Every possession must be valued. Including ones where Coleman guards Parker up to her layup. |
As a fan of a different team, Katie Smith has been arguably the worst coach in the league this year IMO. You have a right to be peeved. |
There's some stiff competition this season for the WCOTY award
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
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| Posted: 08/08/18 9:43 pm ::: |
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| sigur3 wrote: |
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| I’m really ticked at a few of the coaching decisions but I’ll get into that later. A basically one-possession defeat. Every possession must be valued. Including ones where Coleman guards Parker up to her layup. |
As a fan of a different team, Katie Smith has been arguably the worst coach in the league this year IMO. You have a right to be peeved. |
And I’m not normally critical of coaches. Didn’t like Darsch. Liked Richie. Liked Patty. Liked Laimbeer.
The only thing Katie does well is draw up plays out of time outs and design plays in general. Which is a start. But when everything else resembles a train wreck...
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WNBA 09
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Luuuc
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Randy
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 08/09/18 9:49 am ::: |
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I know we (I) have beat the Marissa Coleman issue to death. But let me add yet one more angle that has nothing to do with this year...and I think this is what bothers me more than anything. Coleman barely played last night, yet with the game on the line Katie Smith saw fit to put Tina back in the game with around 7-8 minutes left. A good decision. Without Tina in the game NY couldn't score. However, with Stokes in the game and at least resembling the Stokes of old, the Liberty still maintained a lead on the strength of grind-it-out defense and rebounding. So for some reason, Stokes was removed from the game instead of Coleman. Thus leaving Coleman on Parker. Take away that Coleman couldn't guard Parker if she was allowed to hold a picket fence in front of her. Take away that she destroys offensive flow because she can't score, can't pass and can't penetrate. Take away last night.
Here's my issue. Katie Smith somehow still thinks that Marissa Coleman, after barely playing, gives them the best chance to win in crunch time. On the broadcast, Viani said Katie Smith acknowledged they were now playing for next year (sadly I watched this game twice). Which is why Nurse is starting and AZB is finally getting run. So we know that Coleman playing in crunch time could only be because Katie Smith thinks that Marissa Coleman gives them the best chance to win in crunch time. Which is something that nobody else thinks except Katie Smith. Taking away the why, my problem is wondering how this mentality affects next year's draft. We know Stokes was signed to an extension. Please respect when I say that Stokes has not been 100% for much of this year, that I actually have reliable info that I can't share? I don't even want to say that much, but I'm also tired of seeing her trashed unjustifiably. Whatever her talent is or isn't, (we know there's deficiencies) she obviously gives you a way better chance than Vaughn does to win. So it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a large part of what's happened with her this year is physically based, rather than a coach's decision based on ability. It's obviously not a coincidence that as soon as Coleman and Vaughn were replaced by Nurse and Kiah, the Libs had their best defense/rebounding game in ages. Not to mention, they signed her to an off-season extension. Do you do that with a player coming off a down year that you plan on benching for much of the season for exclusively ability-based reasons? Obviously not.
Anyway, on to next year. Here's (finally, lol) my issue. If Smith thinks Coleman gives her the best chance to win as a combo 3 and undersized 4, what happens if the Libs get the first or second pick in next year's draft? Anyone who's watched the team play knows they need a rim protector, or at least more size in the middle. Watching our perimeter defense constantly sag to eliminate penetrations to protect our weak interior D (there's a reason our opponents' 3 point percentage is so high when we have mostly good perimeter defenders) it should be obvious that having any kind of size in the middle would allow the Libs to dictate on D next year with some very aggressive perimeter defenders without fear of getting beat (Nurse, Boyd, possibly Sugar). My thing is, what if Katie decides that the best move is to get a combo 3/4 player and decides to draft either Collier or KLS? Don't get me wrong. I like both players. But not over our primary need. Collier actually would be a legit 3/4 combo player. It would mean, however, that our only interior defender would still be Stokes. It would also mean Tina banging in the middle at times, something she should not be doing at an advanced age. That's my fear. That NY will have an opportunity to draft a needed post player and pass it up in favor of this cockeyed philosophy that has partially propelled us from 22 wins to 22+ losses.
And not for nothing, I've never, ever once...not even in my Darsch hating days...thought that coaching specifically cost my team 5+ wins in a 34 game season. Never. This is unparalleled, to so easily be able to identify coaching decisions that have contributed to losses this often. I think Katie is good at X's and O's so I'm remaining guardedly hopeful for next year. But everyone who's talking about Fred, Sandy or Amber as being the league's worst coach...sorry. There's no competition this year. Stocks inherited a team with horrible defensive personnel. Fred isn't too good, but I wouldn't say his team would be 19-10 with another coach. Better, yeah. But not 5 games better. And Phoenix was doing ok till losing Sancho left them with no viable option at the 4 spot. Katie is head and shoulders the epic fail of the 2018 season in terms of coaching. Through 28 games the Liberty are 10 games worse than last year and getting worse. This is nearly a history-making decline. With a team that arguably has more talent on it than last year. If they lose their 5 remaining games (they will be an underdog in all 5) then that would mean a 15 game decline in a 34-game season. Even if you thought this roster was hugely overrated, nobody could have predicted this steep a decline. Especially one that resulted in such rebounding and defensive deficiencies.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 08/09/18 3:39 pm ::: |
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Many thanks, NYL_WNBA_COM, for what you're shared here about Kiah Stokes. I realize that you have to be vague. And that perhaps you've shared more than is comfortable. But, as a fan of the team through a very disappointing, frustrating season, it's helpful to better understand--at least to some extent--what has been hindering Stokes. Your report is encouraging as we consider 2019.
As for your other observations, you must be well aware from my many previous comments that I agree with every word you've persuasively written. Bringing in Coleman in crunch time is completely absurd for more reasons than are worth mentioning.
Just to restate my feelings about your conclusion, I was more skeptical about this roster and our chances this season than many Liberty fans who post regularly. But I never, never thought the team might finish with 15 fewer wins than in 2017. I wish I could agree and be "guardedly hopeful" about Katie Smith as our likely coach for 2019, but I'm not.
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Last edited by Bob Lamm on 08/09/18 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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LibFan25
Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 894
Location: NY
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| Posted: 08/09/18 4:08 pm ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
I know we (I) have beat the Marissa Coleman issue to death. But let me add yet one more angle that has nothing to do with this year...and I think this is what bothers me more than anything. Coleman barely played last night, yet with the game on the line Katie Smith saw fit to put Tina back in the game with around 7-8 minutes left. A good decision. Without Tina in the game NY couldn't score. However, with Stokes in the game and at least resembling the Stokes of old, the Liberty still maintained a lead on the strength of grind-it-out defense and rebounding. So for some reason, Stokes was removed from the game instead of Coleman. Thus leaving Coleman on Parker. Take away that Coleman couldn't guard Parker if she was allowed to hold a picket fence in front of her. Take away that she destroys offensive flow because she can't score, can't pass and can't penetrate. Take away last night.
Here's my issue. Katie Smith somehow still thinks that Marissa Coleman, after barely playing, gives them the best chance to win in crunch time. On the broadcast, Viani said Katie Smith acknowledged they were now playing for next year (sadly I watched this game twice). Which is why Nurse is starting and AZB is finally getting run. So we know that Coleman playing in crunch time could only be because Katie Smith thinks that Marissa Coleman gives them the best chance to win in crunch time. Which is something that nobody else thinks except Katie Smith. Taking away the why, my problem is wondering how this mentality affects next year's draft. We know Stokes was signed to an extension. Please respect when I say that Stokes has not been 100% for much of this year, that I actually have reliable info that I can't share? I don't even want to say that much, but I'm also tired of seeing her trashed unjustifiably. Whatever her talent is or isn't, (we know there's deficiencies) she obviously gives you a way better chance than Vaughn does to win. So it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a large part of what's happened with her this year is physically based, rather than a coach's decision based on ability. It's obviously not a coincidence that as soon as Coleman and Vaughn were replaced by Nurse and Kiah, the Libs had their best defense/rebounding game in ages. Not to mention, they signed her to an off-season extension. Do you do that with a player coming off a down year that you plan on benching for much of the season for exclusively ability-based reasons? Obviously not.
Anyway, on to next year. Here's (finally, lol) my issue. If Smith thinks Coleman gives her the best chance to win as a combo 3 and undersized 4, what happens if the Libs get the first or second pick in next year's draft? Anyone who's watched the team play knows they need a rim protector, or at least more size in the middle. Watching our perimeter defense constantly sag to eliminate penetrations to protect our weak interior D (there's a reason our opponents' 3 point percentage is so high when we have mostly good perimeter defenders) it should be obvious that having any kind of size in the middle would allow the Libs to dictate on D next year with some very aggressive perimeter defenders without fear of getting beat (Nurse, Boyd, possibly Sugar). My thing is, what if Katie decides that the best move is to get a combo 3/4 player and decides to draft either Collier or KLS? Don't get me wrong. I like both players. But not over our primary need. Collier actually would be a legit 3/4 combo player. It would mean, however, that our only interior defender would still be Stokes. It would also mean Tina banging in the middle at times, something she should not be doing at an advanced age. That's my fear. That NY will have an opportunity to draft a needed post player and pass it up in favor of this cockeyed philosophy that has partially propelled us from 22 wins to 22+ losses.
And not for nothing, I've never, ever once...not even in my Darsch hating days...thought that coaching specifically cost my team 5+ wins in a 34 game season. Never. This is unparalleled, to so easily be able to identify coaching decisions that have contributed to losses this often. I think Katie is good at X's and O's so I'm remaining guardedly hopeful for next year. But everyone who's talking about Fred, Sandy or Amber as being the league's worst coach...sorry. There's no competition this year. Stocks inherited a team with horrible defensive personnel. Fred isn't too good, but I wouldn't say his team would be 19-10 with another coach. Better, yeah. But not 5 games better. And Phoenix was doing ok till losing Sancho left them with no viable option at the 4 spot. Katie is head and shoulders the epic fail of the 2018 season in terms of coaching. Through 28 games the Liberty are 10 games worse than last year and getting worse. This is nearly a history-making decline. With a team that arguably has more talent on it than last year. If they lose their 5 remaining games (they will be an underdog in all 5) then that would mean a 15 game decline in a 34-game season. Even if you thought this roster was hugely overrated, nobody could have predicted this steep a decline. Especially one that resulted in such rebounding and defensive deficiencies. |
Solid post. you said everything we are seeing as Lib fans about The Coleman situation its been driving me nuts for Months. Smith's clueless lovefest for Coleman it's unbelievable
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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Location: NJ
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| Posted: 08/09/18 4:11 pm ::: |
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| If any player from this season doesn't return next season, it should be Coleman. Then Allen and Vaughn. Would should have had Russell, L. Allen and a bag of chips instead.
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NYSports56
Joined: 03 Jul 2018
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| Posted: 08/10/18 2:41 am ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| Anyway, on to next year. Here's (finally, lol) my issue. If Smith thinks Coleman gives her the best chance to win as a combo 3 and undersized 4, what happens if the Libs get the first or second pick in next year's draft? Anyone who's watched the team play knows they need a rim protector, or at least more size in the middle. Watching our perimeter defense constantly sag to eliminate penetrations to protect our weak interior D (there's a reason our opponents' 3 point percentage is so high when we have mostly good perimeter defenders) it should be obvious that having any kind of size in the middle would allow the Libs to dictate on D next year with some very aggressive perimeter defenders without fear of getting beat (Nurse, Boyd, possibly Sugar). My thing is, what if Katie decides that the best move is to get a combo 3/4 player and decides to draft either Collier or KLS? Don't get me wrong. I like both players. But not over our primary need. Collier actually would be a legit 3/4 combo player. It would mean, however, that our only interior defender would still be Stokes. It would also mean Tina banging in the middle at times, something she should not be doing at an advanced age. That's my fear. That NY will have an opportunity to draft a needed post player and pass it up in favor of this cockeyed philosophy that has partially propelled us from 22 wins to 22+ losses. |
It seems like I'm in the minority, but I think a quality perimeter shooter is a priority over a post player. The only time the Liberty compete in a game is when they get reliable perimeter shooting, because otherwise defenses sag and swarm Tina every time she gets the ball. We already have a great post player. We don't have any great perimeter players. Maybe Kia Nurse can be that, but she hasn't been that yet.
If injuries are indeed the problem for Stokes, next year she should be better and the post defense will improve. I know we need to find a taller post, but that's not as important as an outside shooter that teams cannot afford to leave unguarded.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 08/10/18 12:01 pm ::: |
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| NYSports56 wrote: |
| It seems like I'm in the minority, but I think a quality perimeter shooter is a priority over a post player. . . . I know we need to find a taller post, but that's not as important as an outside shooter that teams cannot afford to leave unguarded. |
If that's the priority, then Katie Lou Samuelson or Asia Durr are the candidates from the college draft. KLS would give more rebounding and interior defense than Durr and probably more effective post entry passing. Durr would be a more aggressive driver in addition to a perimeter shooter.
I tend to think the Liberty have pretty good guards and that Tina can play the 5 as well as the 4 -- in fact, that she can play the 5 better than just about anyone not 6-6 or above. In addition, I'm not convinced McCowan or Brown will be more than journeyman galoots. Hence, I think the Liberty would benefit from an athletic forward with good scoring touch and rebounding skills, which could include (as a stretch) KLS. |
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Nixtreefan
Joined: 14 Nov 2012
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| Posted: 08/10/18 12:09 pm ::: |
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| HAHA love that, journeyman galoots and I 100% agree. You have 2 players in Brown and McCowan, who, if you could combine them you would have 1 good player as 1 is slow and more skilled and the other is quicker but has little offense or savvy.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 08/10/18 12:24 pm ::: |
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| In any event, one really good player, whatever the position, won't be enough to elevate the Liberty next season out of the deep hole they're in. |
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 08/10/18 1:12 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| NYSports56 wrote: |
| It seems like I'm in the minority, but I think a quality perimeter shooter is a priority over a post player. . . . I know we need to find a taller post, but that's not as important as an outside shooter that teams cannot afford to leave unguarded. |
If that's the priority, then Katie Lou Samuelson or Asia Durr are the candidates from the college draft. |
I don’t agree that it’s the priority, but unless the Aces make the playoffs, those will likely be the best prospects that could be available at #4.
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NYSports56
Joined: 03 Jul 2018
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| Posted: 08/10/18 1:36 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| I tend to think the Liberty have pretty good guards... |
If pretty good means "a quality backup," I agree: the team is loaded with them. I can't see a single one of them starting on a good team, though. And who's the best perimiter shooter of the bunch? There is a critical hole here, and none of our current players can fill it.
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