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Why does WBB trigger so much fragile masculinity?

 
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stever



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PostPosted: 07/11/18 12:53 pm    ::: Why does WBB trigger so much fragile masculinity? Reply Reply with quote

https://thinkprogress.org/wnba-fragile-masculinity-5ad613ed2906/

Quote:
That’s why Mo Currie, a forward for the Washington Mystics, often finds these conversations so frustrating. They focus so much on the hate, and not enough on what needs to be done to push women’s basketball forward. Because at the end of the day, nobody is asking for WNBA players to be paid millions of dollars overnight; they’re asking for the proper investment and respect to be given to the league, so that it has an opportunity to grow to the point where those million-dollar paychecks are justified.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 07/11/18 5:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Because males are fragile ...



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/11/18 8:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I’ve never understood why the WNBA makes some SO angry, that’s for sure. Insecurity is undoubtedly a part of it. But man, it’s more than just that sometimes.



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YlwJckt999



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PostPosted: 07/11/18 10:11 pm    ::: Did anyone read the Federalist article? Reply Reply with quote

I'm more of an ACS person but I'm interested to hear you guys' thoughts on the Federalist analysis.

Also. I've scoured the net for info on the G-league and/or summer league attendance/TV contract financials. (If you have any info please share)

Logically speaking if all of this extra money is available to G-league players, shouldn't a bit more be available to the W?

http://gleague.nba.com/news/nba-g-league-announces-player-salaries-2018-2019-season/


NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/12/18 12:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Watching a 3-on-3 (big 3) league game. Featuring retired NBA players. Oracle Arena is packed. As were the arenas in highlight clips. Methinks athleticism isn’t the only determining factor for some of these men who dish vitriol at women’s ball. This game is loaded with bricks and air balls and more people would rather watch this than the WNBA. Sad.



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so-many-pickles



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PostPosted: 07/12/18 12:11 pm    ::: Re: Did anyone read the Federalist article? Reply Reply with quote

YlwJckt999 wrote:
I'm more of an ACS person but I'm interested to hear you guys' thoughts on the Federalist analysis.

Also. I've scoured the net for info on the G-league and/or summer league attendance/TV contract financials. (If you have any info please share)

Logically speaking if all of this extra money is available to G-league players, shouldn't a bit more be available to the W?

http://gleague.nba.com/news/nba-g-league-announces-player-salaries-2018-2019-season/


Truthfully, I think the Federalist piece has a point. It's not necessarily unfair that W players get a smaller percentage of revenue - some of the overhead costs are fixed and will take up a bigger percentage of the revenue for the WNBA than the NBA.

I'm perplexed by the stronger interest in the college game and don't know any possible reasons for that, but I do think that male fragility is core to the hatred of the W. Men who are yelling about keeping women in the kitchen want to think they are better players than the women and are inherently superior, and they can't stomach the idea of women getting paid to ball when their own NBA dreams left them at the Y.

I disagree when the article says it's not about sexism. It's also about homophobia. But I also don't think it makes sense to be complaining about women not making enough when clearly the money isn't there. The bigger issue is the sexism and homophobia that keep people away in the first place. Also the lack of media coverage/publicity.

With my Storm season ticket, I get two free tickets, which I usually give away to strangers in a facebook group for my neighborhood. I'm always surprised at how many of them didn't know we had a WNBA team and didn't know how cheap the tickets were.


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PostPosted: 07/12/18 1:06 pm    ::: Re: Did anyone read the Federalist article? Reply Reply with quote

so-many-pickles wrote:
Truthfully, I think the Federalist piece has a point. It's not necessarily unfair that W players get a smaller percentage of revenue - some of the overhead costs are fixed and will take up a bigger percentage of the revenue for the WNBA than the NBA.


The Federalist article didn't mention anything about percentages of revenue or overhead. Its sole purpose was to take a swipe at WNBA players for being too uppity.



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so-many-pickles



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PostPosted: 07/12/18 3:06 pm    ::: Re: Did anyone read the Federalist article? Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
so-many-pickles wrote:
Truthfully, I think the Federalist piece has a point. It's not necessarily unfair that W players get a smaller percentage of revenue - some of the overhead costs are fixed and will take up a bigger percentage of the revenue for the WNBA than the NBA.


The Federalist article didn't mention anything about percentages of revenue or overhead. Its sole purpose was to take a swipe at WNBA players for being too uppity.


The point is that the money isn't there. The piece said you need to look at profits rather than revenue, IIRC.


mercfan3



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PostPosted: 07/12/18 3:36 pm    ::: Re: Did anyone read the Federalist article? Reply Reply with quote

so-many-pickles wrote:
pilight wrote:
so-many-pickles wrote:
Truthfully, I think the Federalist piece has a point. It's not necessarily unfair that W players get a smaller percentage of revenue - some of the overhead costs are fixed and will take up a bigger percentage of the revenue for the WNBA than the NBA.


The Federalist article didn't mention anything about percentages of revenue or overhead. Its sole purpose was to take a swipe at WNBA players for being too uppity.


The point is that the money isn't there. The piece said you need to look at profits rather than revenue, IIRC.


Half of NBA teams don’t make a profit. They spend a lot more on overhead costs than WNBA teams.



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PostPosted: 07/12/18 4:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

As is well said in the article, this is about sexism, racism, and homophobia. Three poisons, sometimes intertwined.

There are sports that don't interest me. So I don't watch them. I don't hate those sports. I don't spend lots of energy making ugly comments about those sports. Why is it so important for some men to express their contempt for the WNBA so vividly? Sexism, racism, and homophobia.



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calbearman76



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PostPosted: 07/12/18 4:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I struggle to grasp what this issue really is. The WNBA is a sports league, a type of entertainment. People make choices as to what type of entertainment they wish to consume. The players are paid based upon how much value they have (i.e., how much they help to put asses in seats and otherwise create revenue). I consider myself to be primarily a sports fan. The WNBA is entertaining to me because of the skill of the players and the competitiveness of the league, both on a game-to-game basis and overall. Most of my friends are also sports fans and I have taken a few to WNBA (and women's college basketball) games. Some have enjoyed them, others haven't. It is a personal assessment and I respect their opinion, much as they respect my opinion that Ishtar and Howard the Duck were great movies.

Their is some misogyny in this country and throughout the world. There is 100X more in social media. I have no problem with A'ja Wilson wanting more money. I am certain that nearly all athletes would want more money. But I am also certain that there are male athletes in other sports who make far less than A'ja Wilson. No one is making the claim that the WNBA owners are making millions of dollars off of her efforts while paying her a pittance.

So please clarify the problem. Is it that people don't like women's basketball enough? Is it that women, by virtue of their size and strength, not as good at basketball as men. Is it that woman do not sufficiently support the WNBA (and other women's sports) such that men generally make more money in the sports arena. To be clear, women support the NBA far more than the WNBA. When WNBA players have been interviewed they generally mention NBA players as their favorites or role models more so than WNBA players.


Michelle89



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PostPosted: 07/12/18 4:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
As is well said in the article, this is about sexism, racism, and homophobia. Three poisons, sometimes intertwined.

There are sports that don't interest me. So I don't watch them. I don't hate those sports. I don't spend lots of energy making ugly comments about those sports. Why is it so important for some men to express their contempt for the WNBA so vividly? Sexism, racism, and homophobia.


Yeah the hate that womens basketball gets is A LOT worse then other sports (tennis etc.)



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calbearman76



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PostPosted: 07/12/18 7:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
As is well said in the article, this is about sexism, racism, and homophobia. Three poisons, sometimes intertwined.

There are sports that don't interest me. So I don't watch them. I don't hate those sports. I don't spend lots of energy making ugly comments about those sports. Why is it so important for some men to express their contempt for the WNBA so vividly? Sexism, racism, and homophobia.


Strong statement coming out against sexism, racism and homophobia. I am against all of them as well. That may well explain some of the vitriol on social media, and to the extent that it does people would be best served by noting it and moving on. There is little reason to take on that type of faceless criticism with essentially no factual basis.

The problem is that the article in the Federalist was not about racism or homophobia, and the sexism was brought up only by virtue of a quote from Lisa Borders. It was about economics, and it was quite well reasoned. Indeed it suggested that WNBA players should take their skills to places where they are more appreciated and where they can make more money. That is not an outrageous suggestion.


This issue is not about racism. The NBA and WNBA are both roughly 75% African-American. Trying to make this a racism issue undermines the argument.


The WNBA needs to find a way to win over the American sports fan if it wants to be successful. It has been given 20 years and has made only a dent in the market. But it needs to cultivate that market, not trash it. If I have learned anything over the past 20 years, it is that the non-sports fan has not been won over. The Lifetime (channel) experiment showed that there was little interest from non-sports females to watch a women's sports league. It doesn't help the cause for EDD to come out against sports fans.

From the ThinkProgress article:

"Not even the best women’s basketball players in the world are exempt from the sexist vitriol. Elena Delle Donne, the 2015 WNBA MVP, is sick of watching her mentions inundated with cooking jokes and amateurs claiming they could block her shot. She’s noticed through the years that most of these commenters have something in common. “It’s a high percentage of men. High,” Delle Donne told ThinkProgress after the Washington Mystics’ practice on Tuesday. “It’s weird. There’s a lot of anger. They seem very angry at our league.” "

I have read this over a few times and will give EDD the benefit of the doubt that when she says "a high percentage of men. High," she is referring to the commenters, not men in general. But if she wants this to be a male/female issue she will lose.


Imani McGee-Stafford pushes homophobia. She says that most players identify as LGBTQ. It seems when Candice Wiggins made that same type of statement (I know she used an inflated percentage) many people were upset because they felt she was outing the league and that was bad for business. She was playing the victim card as a minority (a straight person)not getting a fair shake. And playing the victim card never looks good. particularly when other reasons are equally likely.

Stafford's most illuminating comment was, “It’s hard to sit there and say that we’re progressive as a nation, that we want women to be in power, and then hate the WNBA. You can’t say you want to raise powerful women and then not support something that is pushing women to be better.”

I want the WNBA to succeed and grow. But I rarely spend my entertainment dollars to make a political statement, and I don't think too many people do. I hope this country continues to raise powerful women and I hope that more people get the joy of watching a WNBA game. The two are not necessarily linked.


NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/12/18 9:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

For reasons I’ve outlined, for a change I’ll keep it simple. There’s zero doubt in my mind that there are people who refuse to watch it for reasons beyond basketball. If that 3-on-3 league could draw 13,000 people to Oracle Arena in July, then the WNBA should have more candidates for viewing if based strictly on basketball alone.

Not sure what can be done about it. But that fact mixed with the vitriol is aggravating.



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YlwJckt999



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PostPosted: 07/13/18 12:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
I struggle to grasp what this issue really is. The WNBA is a sports league, a type of entertainment. People make choices as to what type of entertainment they wish to consume. The players are paid based upon how much value they have (i.e., how much they help to put asses in seats and otherwise create revenue). I consider myself to be primarily a sports fan. The WNBA is entertaining to me because of the skill of the players and the competitiveness of the league, both on a game-to-game basis and overall. Most of my friends are also sports fans and I have taken a few to WNBA (and women's college basketball) games. Some have enjoyed them, others haven't. It is a personal assessment and I respect their opinion, much as they respect my opinion that Ishtar and Howard the Duck were great movies.

Their is some misogyny in this country and throughout the world. There is 100X more in social media. I have no problem with A'ja Wilson wanting more money. I am certain that nearly all athletes would want more money. But I am also certain that there are male athletes in other sports who make far less than A'ja Wilson. No one is making the claim that the WNBA owners are making millions of dollars off of her efforts while paying her a pittance.

So please clarify the problem. Is it that people don't like women's basketball enough? Is it that women, by virtue of their size and strength, not as good at basketball as men. Is it that woman do not sufficiently support the WNBA (and other women's sports) such that men generally make more money in the sports arena. To be clear, women support the NBA far more than the WNBA. When WNBA players have been interviewed they generally mention NBA players as their favorites or role models more so than WNBA players.


http://gleague.nba.com/news/nba-g-league-announces-player-salaries-2018-2019-season/
The money is there to pay them more:
"NBA G League contracts will earn a base salary of $7,000 per month – or $35,000 – for the five-month regular season.....In addition to their salaries, players under NBA G League contracts will continue to have the opportunity to earn additional money through affiliate player bonuses ...[].

This season, about one quarter of players under NBA G League contracts also earned an average of $44,000 in NBA affiliate player bonuses – a total of more than $3 million on top of their NBA G League salaries...."

I don't think its all about putting butts in seats. The G-league (former D-league) is not as popular as the WNBA yet they make the same, possibly more money. I am still looking for accurate tv viewership/revenue for the G-league. My internet search found D-league attendance numbers and they were quite low compared to the WNBA.

If an additional 3M can be found for the G-league surely 2.5-3M could also be shifted to the W.

As far as women/everyone supporting the WNBA..Quite a few of the reasons for the lack thereof have been given (homophobia, racism etc). The problem is multi-level.

The NBA had/has an issue with retaining and attracting new white viewers. The W's problem is significantly worse. The NBA has an issue with players turning off viewers due to political stances. The W in and of itself is seen as a political firestorm - from feminism to LGBTQ to racial issues.

Political hot button issues are in your face with the W and for some people these hot buttons are a turn off.

Let's also not forget that many popular "male" sports enjoy a boost in support due to casual/tag-a-long fans (those who support because their significant other is a fan, those who want to be a part of the big popular event).

Not to mention that unlike women's college basketball, all aspects of the presentation of product is sub par compared to the men's game. [Marketing 101 - even though you have a good product if it is not packaged, promoted and sold properly it will fail]


calbearman76



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PostPosted: 07/13/18 4:03 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

YlwJckt999 wrote:
calbearman76 wrote:
I struggle to grasp what this issue really is. The WNBA is a sports league, a type of entertainment. People make choices as to what type of entertainment they wish to consume. The players are paid based upon how much value they have (i.e., how much they help to put asses in seats and otherwise create revenue). I consider myself to be primarily a sports fan. The WNBA is entertaining to me because of the skill of the players and the competitiveness of the league, both on a game-to-game basis and overall. Most of my friends are also sports fans and I have taken a few to WNBA (and women's college basketball) games. Some have enjoyed them, others haven't. It is a personal assessment and I respect their opinion, much as they respect my opinion that Ishtar and Howard the Duck were great movies.

Their is some misogyny in this country and throughout the world. There is 100X more in social media. I have no problem with A'ja Wilson wanting more money. I am certain that nearly all athletes would want more money. But I am also certain that there are male athletes in other sports who make far less than A'ja Wilson. No one is making the claim that the WNBA owners are making millions of dollars off of her efforts while paying her a pittance.

So please clarify the problem. Is it that people don't like women's basketball enough? Is it that women, by virtue of their size and strength, not as good at basketball as men. Is it that woman do not sufficiently support the WNBA (and other women's sports) such that men generally make more money in the sports arena. To be clear, women support the NBA far more than the WNBA. When WNBA players have been interviewed they generally mention NBA players as their favorites or role models more so than WNBA players.


http://gleague.nba.com/news/nba-g-league-announces-player-salaries-2018-2019-season/
The money is there to pay them more:
"NBA G League contracts will earn a base salary of $7,000 per month – or $35,000 – for the five-month regular season.....In addition to their salaries, players under NBA G League contracts will continue to have the opportunity to earn additional money through affiliate player bonuses ...[].

This season, about one quarter of players under NBA G League contracts also earned an average of $44,000 in NBA affiliate player bonuses – a total of more than $3 million on top of their NBA G League salaries...."

I don't think its all about putting butts in seats. The G-league (former D-league) is not as popular as the WNBA yet they make the same, possibly more money. I am still looking for accurate tv viewership/revenue for the G-league. My internet search found D-league attendance numbers and they were quite low compared to the WNBA.

If an additional 3M can be found for the G-league surely 2.5-3M could also be shifted to the W.

As far as women/everyone supporting the WNBA..Quite a few of the reasons for the lack thereof have been given (homophobia, racism etc). The problem is multi-level.

The NBA had/has an issue with retaining and attracting new white viewers. The W's problem is significantly worse. The NBA has an issue with players turning off viewers due to political stances. The W in and of itself is seen as a political firestorm - from feminism to LGBTQ to racial issues.

Political hot button issues are in your face with the W and for some people these hot buttons are a turn off.

Let's also not forget that many popular "male" sports enjoy a boost in support due to casual/tag-a-long fans (those who support because their significant other is a fan, those who want to be a part of the big popular event).

Not to mention that unlike women's college basketball, all aspects of the presentation of product is sub par compared to the men's game. [Marketing 101 - even though you have a good product if it is not packaged, promoted and sold properly it will fail]


The G-league is a farm system for the NBA. The money the NBA teams spend is to ensure there is a place for potential talent to progress. That isn't the same as giving money to the WNBA.

The question is whether the WNBA can survive and grow by itself.


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PostPosted: 07/13/18 10:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Also note that NBA owners had to be forced to support the G League, and I'm not even sure that every franchise has a G-League counterpart at this point.

Part of the reason that the G-League supplanted the CBA (which Isiah Thomas destroyed) was that the NBA does not want any platform available for a rival league to appear. That is the most devastating thing that can happen to a monopoly like the NBA because the players will get more of the actual revenue gained (including franchise appreciation).

For the same reason, the NBA does not want to see the WNBA disappear and be replaced (as it would be) by a women's league unaffiliated with the NBA that could conceivably develop a platform solid enough to start a competing men's league.

The value of the franchises -- the key to professional sports' finances -- is dependent on the monopoly, and that's why the NBA owners reluctantly agreed to support the G League. A non-NBA affiliated women's league is less of a threat, but enough of one to keep the NBA willing to help out.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 07/13/18 10:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
The question is whether the WNBA can survive and grow by itself.


We're never going to find that out. The W will always be under the thumb of the NBA, and the NBA is never going to put forth the kind of effort and investment it would take to make that happen. The NBA doesn't want to the W to survive and grow by itself. If the league had that level of success, we wouldn't need the NBA affiliation.



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PostPosted: 07/13/18 12:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

come back in 10 years, if things go well, we'll be having this same conversation.

if things don't go well, there will be no W (or any other USA pro women's basketball league) to converse about.



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PostPosted: 07/13/18 2:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Also note that NBA owners had to be forced to support the G League, and I'm not even sure that every franchise has a G-League counterpart at this point.

Part of the reason that the G-League supplanted the CBA (which Isiah Thomas destroyed) was that the NBA does not want any platform available for a rival league to appear. That is the most devastating thing that can happen to a monopoly like the NBA because the players will get more of the actual revenue gained (including franchise appreciation).

For the same reason, the NBA does not want to see the WNBA disappear and be replaced (as it would be) by a women's league unaffiliated with the NBA that could conceivably develop a platform solid enough to start a competing men's league.

The value of the franchises -- the key to professional sports' finances -- is dependent on the monopoly, and that's why the NBA owners reluctantly agreed to support the G League. A non-NBA affiliated women's league is less of a threat, but enough of one to keep the NBA willing to help out.


Portland, Denver, and New Orleans are three teams in the NBA that doesn't have an G League affiliate team. With the OAD era in college basketball all but ending within the next couple of years, the G League isn't going anywhere. Wasn't the original purpose of the WNBA was to be a direct competitor against the ABL?


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PostPosted: 07/13/18 3:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Davis4632 wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Also note that NBA owners had to be forced to support the G League, and I'm not even sure that every franchise has a G-League counterpart at this point.

Part of the reason that the G-League supplanted the CBA (which Isiah Thomas destroyed) was that the NBA does not want any platform available for a rival league to appear. That is the most devastating thing that can happen to a monopoly like the NBA because the players will get more of the actual revenue gained (including franchise appreciation).

For the same reason, the NBA does not want to see the WNBA disappear and be replaced (as it would be) by a women's league unaffiliated with the NBA that could conceivably develop a platform solid enough to start a competing men's league.

The value of the franchises -- the key to professional sports' finances -- is dependent on the monopoly, and that's why the NBA owners reluctantly agreed to support the G League. A non-NBA affiliated women's league is less of a threat, but enough of one to keep the NBA willing to help out.


Portland, Denver, and New Orleans are three teams in the NBA that doesn't have an G League affiliate team. With the OAD era in college basketball all but ending within the next couple of years, the G League isn't going anywhere. Wasn't the original purpose of the WNBA was to be a direct competitor against the ABL?


The ABL formed first, and at the time, the indications were strong that the NBA created the WNBA in response to the ABL. The NBA had more than a passing interest in a women's league after the '96 Olympics, but wasn't ready to pull the trigger.

But for the reasons I mentioned above, the ABL's existence made the NBA owners form their own league, and shortly drove the underfunded and oversalaried ABL out of business. (Those who do not know history ...)



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PostPosted: 07/13/18 9:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Sorry, but I don't believe this has anything to do with a 'fragile masculinity' as the article claims. At this point in American history, this is the most hateful period of our existence, one case in point, politics. And with it, 'hating' has become the most #1 'fun' thing to do in America right now. It isn't going to the beach or on vacation, it isn't going to a sporting event or the movies, it isn't enjoying a hobby. It isn't even staying home and getting together with your friends and having a good time. It's about making sure you're expressing your hatred of someone, some group or some thing, just so you can try and hurt other people and their feelings, while trying to make yourself feel smug and superior. I would like to see the ratio of positive posts on twitter, Facebook, or even here at Rebkell's to the negative posts and see which there are more of. I'd be willing to bet that hating posts would surpass the positive posts by a 100 to 1 margin. Too many Americans have become too comfortable living way under their potential to be great citizens. And taking the easy way out by living by hate instead of working their hardest to love. This isn't about Americans needing to hate. This is about Americans wanting to hate.



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