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Genero36



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 3:39 pm    ::: Props to A'ja Wilson and Kayla McBride For Fighting for... Reply Reply with quote

...better pay. They might not get what they want but nothing ventured, nothing gained. Billy Jean King fought for Serena and Venus to receive equal play and was successful.

I don't think the woman will get close to that from three months of play but they definitely might get a substantial amount more than they are.

A'ja and Kayla might attract skeptics, but no one will remember that when their successors are making a lot more money for the fight A'ja and Kayla (among many others) are fighting.

WNBA Players Rip Trolls for Sexist Comments Over Them Wanting More Money





https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/wnba-players-rip-trolls-for-sexist-comments-over-them-wanting-more-money/ar-AAzKges?li=BBnba9I



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Genero36



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 4:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Here are some arguments made from both sides of this issue this week on this hot button topic:

1. They don't make the money for the organization. As a result, they don't get paid as much. That's not sexism, that supply and demand.

2. I am sure if the WNBA pulled in more money then they would get a higher salary and if they were more popular players would get more endorsements. People seem to support college women hooping more than the WNBA.

3. I’m a huge supporter of the WNBA. When it first came out, it was big, we had the Cynthia Coopers’, Tina Thompsons’, Sheryl Swoopes. However, men never really bought into the WNBA. Just like the comments now, they were considered a joke and was underrated.

The problem with the WNBA is the front office. They don’t even sell jerseys anymore. The jerseys are filled with sponsors. They don’t put any money into the franchise anymore. In the past, you could watch a game on CBS and ABC. Now it’s on ESPN 3 or NBA TV. Many don’t have those channels.

They stopped investing in it.

4. Not a sports fan however, I disagree. If the players are making billions for the organizations, they should at least make millions. Same thing with Hollywood actors or other entertainers. No one says they're getting paid too much. They give a product and the audience gives the money.

5. The point is going over yalls head. Yall keep saying no one watches....who the fuck is putting this shit on TV? No big media outlets are supporting the WNBA. This industry can make the most ignorant people popular so why wouldn't WNBA be popular? It's not that people ain't watching, it's that the establishment doesn't want to give them their fair share of publicity which goes straight back to sexism. I also think that this sport is considered "manly" and since these women are so tall you can't "sexify" them like you can other female sports stars. You don't even see female basketball players get any type of popular endorsement deals.

People can't watch something and support it if the big wigs don't put it on TV or let people know it's out there.

6. Of all the many contracts signed this free agency, she chooses to comment on lebrons? He's the face of the league and one of the greatest of all time. Why not comment on the other scrubs getting paid millions?

7. They didn't even try with the WNBA though. The league was everywhere in the 90s. Rebecca Lobo, Sheryl Swoops, Lisa Leslie, etc.

It is sexism at play, plain and simple, because look at what everyone--male and female--reaches for to talk about the league: masculine, lesbian, etc. Isaiah Thomas (I think) got slapped with a sexual harassment lawsuit a few years ago by a woman who said the back offices of the NBA are rife with brutal sexism. So it's obvious that since WNBA players aren't considered fuckable, they aren't worth much to the overall sport.

8. I saw someone mention that men don’t take the WNBA seriously. Who gives a damn what men think? What’s stopping women, at 50% of the population, from supporting the WNBA? Women should be the group they market towards. I don’t get why women don’t seem to really support female athletics either.

I totally agree that WNBA players should making more. Same goes for women’s soccer. But the fact is that revenue is too low to pay these women what they deserve. It’s a sad situation but I don’t see it really changing.

I saw a WNBA player spending months playing basketball in cold ass Russia just to make more money.

9. I kinda see her (A'ja) point but she picked the WRONG dude to use an example. You got so many damn bums in the nba getting paid 15+ million a year. I mean Chandler Parsons is getting paid 23 millions and he averaged like 6 points. Luol Deng and Joakim Noah are getting paid 15-17 million a year and they barely played last season. Lebron James has been the face of the NBA for 15 years, he EARNS his money. He's well deserving of that money and his presence means a whole to the NBA.

10. One WNBA players' salary starts at .2% of the league earnings.

One NBA players' salary starts at 0.00786729729% of league earnings.

Technically the women are starting off higher but, their league doesn't make any money.

11. The WNBA has changed a lot since its inception.

I used watched a lot of their games during the 90s. The stars were more feminine, family oriented (mothers, wives, etc.) That was the image the WNBA promoted. Now it’s about pushing a feminist and lesbian agenda. That’s fine if lesbians and angry feminists are bringing in the money, but even their support is lukewarm.

12. I'm a former sports league employee. I know what the hell I'm talking about. Truth hurts. Lisa Leslie was a top performer, BUT SHE WAS ALSO ATTRACTIVE.

90's WNBA was appealing in part because the women were still feminine.


13. Attendance and tv views dont solely influence salaries. Revenue is the biggest influence. What I've been saying: Low revenue and demand is the reason for low WNBA salaries. MLB has high revenues and demand is still high despite decrease in attendance and tv. MLB players salaries are high because the money is there. WNBA doesn't have high revenues at all. Therefore, WNBA players salaries are low because the money isnt there.

14. They barely market the WNBA and there are no licensed products outside of generic t shirts.

Lisa Leslie, Cynthia Cooper, Sheryl Swoopes, Dawn Staley, and several other women’s jerseys use to fly off the shelves. Hell, the movie Juwanna Mann was based around the WNBA.

Thete are several reasons why it’s not thriving...but it’s not solely due to low attendance and tv ratings. Poor decisions from the front office is killing them.

15. Legends Football League is is a women's 7-on-7 American football, founded in 2009 as the Lingerie Football League and was rebranded as the Legends Football League in 2013.

Ever since they rebranded the whole thing, this league has been banking and making numbers. This is to show you how people in general like women sport's players. When i first saw this league i was shocked and disgusted until i realized that's just how society and men are.

There is no way a women's national football league would be making bank like this lingerie league thing if the women copied the men's league jerseys and all.

Their stadiums stay packed.




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bballgrl



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 6:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I am a woman and I love the wnba. Problem is I don't have a team in my city so I cannot attend games. There are only 12 teams in 52 states! Tv time has gone down since last year which is proven by the fact that there are more games on League Pass(which I have) then there are on tv. That was the 1st thing I noticed. Years ago there was a tv league pass for the wnba and they should bring that back! They have one for the men and fans like myself would purchase it in a heart beat.


Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 10:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

They're (Mark Jones and Doris Burke) interviewing A'ja Wilson during this Las Vegas Summer League game right now, on ESPN2. I think they started by asking her about her comments about pay inequity, but I came in on the tail end of that. They then started asking about her goals in the league, and Jones told her he expects to see her at the All-Star game.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 1:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

For 2018 the Legends Football League (Lingerie Football League prior to 2013) uniforms use pants.



Luuuc



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 8:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There's obviously no quick fix for this situation but I do like seeing the players standing up for themselves and their sport.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 9:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I've said it before and I'll say it again, a second TV deal would be a big step for the league. Keep ESPN2 on Tuesdays and increase it to double headers. Have the Twitter games on Fridays and add in the second TV partner for Thursdays or Sundays.



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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 11:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, a second TV deal would be a big step for the league. Keep ESPN2 on Tuesdays and increase it to double headers. Have the Twitter games on Fridays and add in the second TV partner for Thursdays or Sundays.

Depends whether ESPN wants them to have another TV partner or not. If that money from ESPN - which is significant, and arguably unjustified by the ratings/value except in how it kept the NBA happy - is only on offer if ESPN are the exclusive TV partner, then many in the League may not feel a second partner is worth it.

Plus, if you've got games on some tiny network that's in a much smaller number of homes than ESPN2, and the ratings are therefore miniscule, does the league just come off looking even worse?



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 2:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bballgrl wrote:
There are only 12 teams in 52 states!


Um ....


FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 6:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If Aja, Kayla, et al can keep this issue out in front of the public without saying anything too annoying, maybe it will get more people tuning in to see what the WNBA is about. Assuming there's a televised game somewhere to tune into. I can dream.


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PostPosted: 07/09/18 7:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Wanting more income is normal. WNBA players may even deserve a bigger slice of the pie.

Using the NBA as some sort of gauge/guide seems inept though.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 9:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Since the players are part of a union, they don't have to tweet about wanting more money, just have their representative negotiate higher salaries. And if they don't get what they want, live off their overseas wages and go on strike.


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PostPosted: 07/09/18 9:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I feel about 99 percent confident in saying that the first day that WNBA players go on strike will be the last day that there is a WNBA.



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WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 9:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
I feel about 99 percent confident in saying that the first day that WNBA players go on strike will be the last day that there is a WNBA.


Bingo



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pilight



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 10:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
I feel about 99 percent confident in saying that the first day that WNBA players go on strike will be the last day that there is a WNBA.


I remember then WNBPA president Sonja Henning talking non-stop about a player's strike in the lead up to the 2002 CBA negotiations. David Stern mentioned the possibility of a lockout. At that point player salaries were estimated at 15% of basketball related income.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 07/10/18 7:21 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Re: Legends Football League

Note that LFL players don't get paid at all.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2011/10/28/lingerie_football_touchdown_or_fumble.html

Quote:
“We will create an environment and culture that will cater to only those who love the game, while weeding out those doing it for a paycheque,” Mortaza wrote to league players in a letter dated March 18, 2011. “Thus, moving forward, the LFL will no longer be compensating players.”

Mortaza says that the company will “eventually revert back to a compensation model,” but in the meantime will no longer ask players to make promotional appearances, nor mandate attendance at practices.

“There seems to be a misperception that the LFL is driving massive revenues, when in actuality, we are simply trying to stay alive in one of the toughest economic climates in history,” the letter said.



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Speebs56



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PostPosted: 07/11/18 9:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

"I used watched a lot of their games during the 90s. The stars were more feminine, family oriented (mothers, wives, etc.) That was the image the WNBA promoted. Now it’s about pushing a feminist and lesbian agenda. That’s fine if lesbians and angry feminists are bringing in the money, but even their support is lukewarm."


FUCK THIS SHIT! And to be a feminist does not = angry. (Not that we don't have a WHOLE HELL OF A LOT to be angry about!)

Stupid crap.


Stonington_QB



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PostPosted: 07/11/18 1:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

No dog in this fight personally but I came across this article on the subject today:
http://thefederalist.com/2018/07/11/wnba-players-stop-complaining-anything-theyre-overpaid/


Speebs56



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PostPosted: 07/11/18 1:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stonington_QB wrote:
No dog in this fight personally but I came across this article on the subject today:
http://thefederalist.com/2018/07/11/wnba-players-stop-complaining-anything-theyre-overpaid/


A number of thoughts come to mind while reading this piece.

1. Where were other successful sports leagues 20 years in?
2. NCAA women's basketball has been around how long? And how many places can you view? WNBA has limited opportunities for eyeballs, although it's improving with live streaming.
3. What is the actual number of NBA teams that still own the WNBA counterpart? I know I've seen that metric on this board someplace. 4 or 5? Out of 12? Someone else on here would know better. I just looked at the team list and am not sure re: Mystics.

And in truth, I'm afraid any article posted on The Federalist is suspect in my eyes. Their perspective is so conservative I cannot take writings posted there with much credence.


pilight



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PostPosted: 07/11/18 1:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stonington_QB wrote:
No dog in this fight personally but I came across this article on the subject today:
http://thefederalist.com/2018/07/11/wnba-players-stop-complaining-anything-theyre-overpaid/


Not one mention of what the players are actually talking about, which is their percentage of basketball revenue.



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miller40



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PostPosted: 07/11/18 2:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Speebs56 wrote:
Stonington_QB wrote:
No dog in this fight personally but I came across this article on the subject today:
http://thefederalist.com/2018/07/11/wnba-players-stop-complaining-anything-theyre-overpaid/


A number of thoughts come to mind while reading this piece.

1. Where were other successful sports leagues 20 years in?

I actually wish people would stop drawing comparisons between the NBA 20 years in and the WNBA 20 years in. It's completely incomparable with the technological advances in the world today, in my opinion.

On another note, I'm in the middle of a long work road trip for this summer. I spend a lot of time listening to the radio. I don't remember where I was or the station, but I heard some hosts talking about the WNBA in between songs on Monday afternoon. The topic was Wilson's Tweets about pay. It was two women and one man. Both women said they love basketball but find the WNBA boring because the men's athleticism is much more fun to watch. And then the man said -- if they all looked like Diggins the WNBA would be ok, but they all look like Taurasi. Unfortunately and discouragingly, both women agreed.

We have come a long way, but we have some ways to go.

WNBA specific, I just don't know if the league will ever be able to get these types of folks on board.


FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 07/11/18 4:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One of my best friends (female) is a HUGE sports fan, and watches the NBA, NFL, NHL, MLB, MCBB, and/or tennis everrrry night. She has zero interest in the WNBA or WCBB, and doesn't watch any women's sports because they're "boring" and the play is "inferior" to the men's. This seems to be a really common objection to the WNBA.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 07/11/18 5:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
One of my best friends (female) is a HUGE sports fan, and watches the NBA, NFL, NHL, MLB, MCBB, and/or tennis everrrry night. She has zero interest in the WNBA or WCBB, and doesn't watch any women's sports because they're "boring" and the play is "inferior" to the men's. This seems to be a really common objection to the WNBA.


And sadly, from certain perspectives, that is an accurate statement. The difference in athleticism is huge, and many people really enjoy displays of pure athleticism.

That group will be very hard to convince about women's basketball because they are looking for entertainment value in an area in which women cannot compete in terms of explosiveness and 99th percentile moments.

For visual proof, compare the top ten plays in the NBA to the top ten plays in the WNBA. In terms of skill, court vision, etc., the women are right there, but in terms of athletic feats ...

(Also note that the ability to jump and stay in the air for a long time allows 99th percentile men to do things those who can't match that ability simply can't.)



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/11/18 8:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The group that watches basketball purely for running, jumping and dunking without regard to team play...you may as well forget them. There’s no chance.

I have a friend who I just met in the last year or two. Really good guy. He says he can’t get into it because it’s too slow for him. He does, however, respect the fact that a mutual friend and I are really into it. And he respects the players for their abilities. It’s just not for him, up to this point. It happens. The caveat is that he appreciates basketball for more than the just the athletic endeavors even if my comment just prior doesn’t reflect that so clearly. He likes team play. Just at a faster pace. I do think I might be able to sell him on it because I feel he’d try out one game live just to check it out. See, I’d settle for that. Just be willing to try one game live. If you don’t like it, fine. In the process don’t denigrate their play or the nature of the game. And respect those of who do like it. That’s all at this point I’d ask for. I can’t make you like what you don’t like, just give it one chance. But please respect those of who are active participants in playing or following women’s ball. That’s it.

I have another friend. Rips WBB regularly. In 1999 after the finals game 2 where Spoon made the shot, he told me that it was a pretty good game. I guess he watched some of it. 19 years later he swears he didn’t say it. But he did. Says a lot about the mindset doesn’t it? Get what I mean? The ego won’t allow some people to open themselves to it even if they might like it. My feeling is that my friend isn’t alone in that regard.



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Speebs56



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PostPosted: 07/11/18 9:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

"In the process don’t denigrate their play or the nature of the game. And respect those of who do like it. That’s all at this point I’d ask for. I can’t make you like what you don’t like, just give it one chance. But please respect those of who are active participants in playing or following women’s ball. That’s it. "

Yes - and I do realize that there are many who will never appreciate - let alone enjoy - the women's game, whether WNBA or college-level. That there always will be the trolls who can't shut up about something they don't like, and evidently are threatened by athletic women. Forget about them. Ignore them. Don't engage with the trolls.

Most of the people I know who dismiss the women's game have never watched or attended a game, so really don't know what they're talking about. Some just like to get under my skin. Whatever.

I am so happy that the WNBA finally has embraced it's fans -- and the lesbian and feminist women who, in large part, have supported the league since it's inception. And welcome our daughters and sisters, fathers and sons who ALSO enjoy the game.


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PostPosted: 07/11/18 9:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This might offend some but in todays reality the WNBA is for Lesbians older grandmas & Gay men and that sucks because i know alot of older heteros who enjoy watching they just dont get out to watch . Not worth their time. Ive brought a few friends to wings game with their children and they LOVED it kids especially , but if you dont know fundamental basketball you wont get attached to the W from my personal experiences.



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Speebs56



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PostPosted: 07/11/18 9:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
This might offend some but in todays reality the WNBA is for Lesbians older grandmas & Gay men and that sucks because i know alot of older heteros who enjoy watching they just dont get out to watch . Not worth their time. Ive brought a few friends to wings game with their children and they LOVED it kids especially , but if you dont know fundamental basketball you wont get attached to the W from my personal experiences.


Not sure how you mean "for lesbians older grandmas and gay men..." since the game is available for all. It's not like heteros and younger people, families, etc. are turned away at the door.

I'm just happy that those of us "lesbians older grandmas" who've followed the league since it started are no longer ignored, invisible, and shunned as was often the case in the early days of the WNBA.

The WNBA turned itself inside out trying to promote the league as "family friendly" which translated in many ways as homophobic. I get why -- but it was a drag just the same -- since we were present and supporting the league year in and year out.


Speebs56



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PostPosted: 07/11/18 10:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Speebs56 wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
This might offend some but in todays reality the WNBA is for Lesbians older grandmas & Gay men and that sucks because i know alot of older heteros who enjoy watching they just dont get out to watch . Not worth their time. Ive brought a few friends to wings game with their children and they LOVED it kids especially , but if you dont know fundamental basketball you wont get attached to the W from my personal experiences.


Not sure how you mean "for lesbians older grandmas and gay men..." since the game is available for all. It's not like heteros and younger people, families, etc. are turned away at the door.

I'm just happy that those of us "lesbians older grandmas" who've followed the league since it started are no longer ignored, invisible, and shunned as was often the case in the early days of the WNBA.

The WNBA turned itself inside out trying to promote the league as "family friendly" which translated in many ways as homophobic. I get why -- but it was a drag just the same -- since we were present and supporting the league year in and year out.


And ya know - a last thought (at least for now!) I don't know why so many think this is a zero sum game: acknowledge the popularity of the WNBA among lesbians (and grandmas and gay men) and that means that hetero moms, dads, kids, etc. CAN'T be fans?

It doesn't have to be (and typically isn't) one OR the other. All inclusive is the goal.


WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 07/11/18 10:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Speebs56 wrote:
Speebs56 wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
This might offend some but in todays reality the WNBA is for Lesbians older grandmas & Gay men and that sucks because i know alot of older heteros who enjoy watching they just dont get out to watch . Not worth their time. Ive brought a few friends to wings game with their children and they LOVED it kids especially , but if you dont know fundamental basketball you wont get attached to the W from my personal experiences.


Not sure how you mean "for lesbians older grandmas and gay men..." since the game is available for all. It's not like heteros and younger people, families, etc. are turned away at the door.

I'm just happy that those of us "lesbians older grandmas" who've followed the league since it started are no longer ignored, invisible, and shunned as was often the case in the early days of the WNBA.

The WNBA turned itself inside out trying to promote the league as "family friendly" which translated in many ways as homophobic. I get why -- but it was a drag just the same -- since we were present and supporting the league year in and year out.


And ya know - a last thought (at least for now!) I don't know why so many think this is a zero sum game: acknowledge the popularity of the WNBA among lesbians (and grandmas and gay men) and that means that hetero moms, dads, kids, etc. CAN'T be fans?

It doesn't have to be (and typically isn't) one OR the other. All inclusive is the goal.


Those are not my views thats the feedback i hear when i attempt to discuss the WNBA.



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PostPosted: 07/12/18 5:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
This might offend some but in todays reality the WNBA is for Lesbians older grandmas & Gay men and that sucks because i know alot of older heteros who enjoy watching they just dont get out to watch.



The only significant demographic groups you see at Dallas Wings games are grandmas, lesbians and gay men?


WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 07/12/18 9:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
This might offend some but in todays reality the WNBA is for Lesbians older grandmas & Gay men and that sucks because i know alot of older heteros who enjoy watching they just dont get out to watch.



The only significant demographic groups you see at Dallas Wings games are grandmas, lesbians and gay men?


Generally but the feedback are from random joes who have never attended a wings game and feel emasculated by even watching not sure if it's a pride thing seeing women do things they cannot or just pure ignorance.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 07/12/18 10:03 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One of the sad things that happened recently in our high school league is that the girls and boys don't play at the same site on the same night. We did for many years, which forced the guys to watch the girls play -- and as mentioned above, they may not have really seen what was going on, but if the girls were good, they had to appreciate the skill level.

And I think that respect is the first step -- and if people don't take another step, well, that's OK.

The guys who troll female athletes are just looking for someone to be superior to, or they're channeling their negative feelings about women into an arena that really doesn't match their emotional needs.

The hope for a bigger fan base really lies with developing a more sophisticated fan base for basketball in general, a fan base that understands more of the intricacies of the game and enjoys good basketball enough to watch it without the need to have it spiced up with elite athleticism.

It's not inconceivable that could happen, as for a variety of reasons, basketball is a sport that could get more and more popular as time goes on. In a way, the survival of the WNBA up to this point is proof of that, though it does seem like it will take some major change for the league to become more than it is.



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RavenDog



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PostPosted: 07/12/18 1:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'd like to see the NBA players play with the hoop raised a foot or foot and a half and see if they can play the real game of basketball like the women do. It would be hilarious to watch some of those very wealthy NBA players who now play.

I have nothing against the NBA and those who love watching and following it. Enjoy! But, to me, the NBA is SIMPLE and BORING! NBA players mostly shoot jump shots to easy hoops, travel, dunk and jog. Athletic? Yes. Skilled in basketball? Hardly.... Most of the huge oversized lugs would not be playing if they had to play with the rim was raised on a par with the women. The more skilled, faster, quicker and basketball savvy players would take their places. The NBA is more about giant lugs than skilled basketball players. To play hard every game, like the women do, would tucker the majority of these lugs out so fast they'd need to have 25 players on each NBA team and keep oxygen and resuscitation devices on hand.

If the hoop was raised, NBA players would have to learn passing skills and basketball plays, how to actually make layups, demonstrate finesse in making short to midrange shots, run hard, dive for loose balls, actually defend one another, play team basketball, and more so, learn to play without traveling all over the place.

And just think if all NBA players did for society, children, charity and so forth what the women do...

To really appreciate the game of basketball, one must watch the WNBA play not the NBA. It's a tougher game.

The unfortunate business pay issues have been well documented above. For me, I'd like to see all NBA teams be required to provide financial support to the WNBA....kind of like Title IX. Do the NBA players really need to be paid $25-45 million a year? How about $24 to $39 million with $1 million going to the WNBA.

Pay the women! They play harder.


Speebs56



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PostPosted: 07/12/18 5:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

RavenDog wrote:
I'd like to see the NBA players play with the hoop raised a foot or foot and a half and see if they can play the real game of basketball like the women do. It would be hilarious to watch some of those very wealthy NBA players who now play.

I have nothing against the NBA and those who love watching and following it. Enjoy! But, to me, the NBA is SIMPLE and BORING! NBA players mostly shoot jump shots to easy hoops, travel, dunk and jog. Athletic? Yes. Skilled in basketball? Hardly.... Most of the huge oversized lugs would not be playing if they had to play with the rim was raised on a par with the women. The more skilled, faster, quicker and basketball savvy players would take their places. The NBA is more about giant lugs than skilled basketball players. To play hard every game, like the women do, would tucker the majority of these lugs out so fast they'd need to have 25 players on each NBA team and keep oxygen and resuscitation devices on hand.

If the hoop was raised, NBA players would have to learn passing skills and basketball plays, how to actually make layups, demonstrate finesse in making short to midrange shots, run hard, dive for loose balls, actually defend one another, play team basketball, and more so, learn to play without traveling all over the place.

And just think if all NBA players did for society, children, charity and so forth what the women do...

To really appreciate the game of basketball, one must watch the WNBA play not the NBA. It's a tougher game.

The unfortunate business pay issues have been well documented above. For me, I'd like to see all NBA teams be required to provide financial support to the WNBA....kind of like Title IX. Do the NBA players really need to be paid $25-45 million a year? How about $24 to $39 million with $1 million going to the WNBA.

Pay the women! They play harder.


I like this!


calbearman76



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PostPosted: 07/12/18 7:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

RavenDog wrote:
I'd like to see the NBA players play with the hoop raised a foot or foot and a half and see if they can play the real game of basketball like the women do. It would be hilarious to watch some of those very wealthy NBA players who now play.

I have nothing against the NBA and those who love watching and following it. Enjoy! But, to me, the NBA is SIMPLE and BORING! NBA players mostly shoot jump shots to easy hoops, travel, dunk and jog. Athletic? Yes. Skilled in basketball? Hardly.... Most of the huge oversized lugs would not be playing if they had to play with the rim was raised on a par with the women. The more skilled, faster, quicker and basketball savvy players would take their places. The NBA is more about giant lugs than skilled basketball players. To play hard every game, like the women do, would tucker the majority of these lugs out so fast they'd need to have 25 players on each NBA team and keep oxygen and resuscitation devices on hand.

If the hoop was raised, NBA players would have to learn passing skills and basketball plays, how to actually make layups, demonstrate finesse in making short to midrange shots, run hard, dive for loose balls, actually defend one another, play team basketball, and more so, learn to play without traveling all over the place.

And just think if all NBA players did for society, children, charity and so forth what the women do...

To really appreciate the game of basketball, one must watch the WNBA play not the NBA. It's a tougher game.

The unfortunate business pay issues have been well documented above. For me, I'd like to see all NBA teams be required to provide financial support to the WNBA....kind of like Title IX. Do the NBA players really need to be paid $25-45 million a year? How about $24 to $39 million with $1 million going to the WNBA.

Pay the women! They play harder.


The WNBA was set up by the NBA and their teams have dumped millions of dollars into the sport. Whether that investment has helped to build the sport of basketball can be argued, but that was the point. The ABL was a true women's basketball league. Unfortunately they couldn't compete with the deep pockets of the NBA owners.


Now the WNBA is a mixed bag, trying to swim on its own with a few NBA owners remaining. They do a lot of outreach to the community and other things that help the sport as a whole. The NBA continues to partner with the WNBA in a few significant ways, including having WNBA players in their All-Star weekend. This may be the single best advertising for the WNBA all year. But the idea that the NBA should be required to pay the WNBA is incredibly stupid. Women play hard so the men should give them money. If you want women to be seen as weak and unable to fend for themselves this will do it.


Luuuc



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PostPosted: 07/12/18 8:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

RavenDog wrote:
Pay the women! They play harder.

I'm all for elevating the league and paying the women more, but I don't think that stereotypes in either direction are helpful to the cause.



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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 07/12/18 8:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The thing is, say that guy at Forbes is somewhere close to accurate about the players getting 20% of Basketball Related Income, at most. The players are bringing up that NBA players get right around 50% - understandably so, given the gap between those numbers. But if anything even close to 50% was remotely viable for the WNBA, we've had a lot of WNBA owners over the years not just fibbing about their balance sheets, or slanting their info, but outright wildly lying. Because if 50% is viable, and they're only paying out 20%, then you can't have been losing money hand over fist, or even only breaking even in the good years.

I don't pretend to have any genuine information about the cost/expenditure balance for a WNBA team compared to an NBA team, but given those elements it's hard to imagine it's that similar. As I've said many times before, I'd like to large parts of the CBA blown up and started again from scratch, but my fear is that the players latch on to that 50% figure. And when the owners say they can't/won't even approach it, things get dangerous. 20+ years makes this league feel permanent, but it's still flimsy enough that a strike/lockout could be disastrous. I really hope negotiations start early, and I hope everyone's realistic. The owners need to make changes, and they need to listen, and they need to make concessions in certain areas - but the players also have to look at the balance sheets and be honest about what's actually there. Don't just dig your heels in on numbers that might not be relevant in this particular case.



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Luuuc



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PostPosted: 07/12/18 8:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I hate the player salary discrepency as much as anyone, but I don't like the % Revenue argument either. It's clearly flawed when used in isolation.
A lot of the cost of the league and its teams would be staff salaries and general overheads, and those don't just stay in proportion to everything else. The top WNBA players might only be earing a tiny fraction of what the top NBA players earn, but at least they're getting a salary that they can live on. What they're effectively arguing with this basic % Revenue claim is that office staff should get pay cuts, referees should get pay cuts, the lease of their office space should cost a tiny fraction of what an NBA office costs to lease, hiring an arena for a WNBA game should cost only a tiny fraction of hiring an arena for an NBA game.
It just doesn't wash at all. So hopefully they've got more arguments up their sleeves than just that.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 07/13/18 10:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I agree it's a dangerous ploy ... and to beat my drum again, remember that NBA owners get rich because not only are their franchises worth something, they appreciate in value. WNBA owners do not have that source of black ink to draw on.



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awhom111



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PostPosted: 07/13/18 9:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It looks like there will be a lot of posturing before the CBA opt-out and then there will be plenty more in the 18+ months they have to negotiate before there are actual impacts if they get nowhere. It will be interesting to see if any ownership groups speak publically in the next few months.

The fixed sum salary cap seems to be criticized now with the percentage in vogue, but it is pretty good hedging against the possibility that the salary cap decreases.

Does anyone have any estimate that they have ever heard about how much a coaching/technical staff coaches a team. WNBA teams have to compete against colleges for coaching or hire people who would not coach in college so I would imagine that head coaches make a multiple of the maximum player salary. I was curious and checked a very good, but not elite college program and found that they have five people on staff who make more than the WNBA player maximum. Clearly the radical solution for the next CBA should be new rules that ban all coaching from anyone not on the roster and then the players can take all of that share too.

A lot of the same arguments have been made when it comes to American lower division soccer. The remaining pro league, the USL, pays low wages to players and for the most part did not employ them on a full year basis, which has insurance consequences, while having administrative staff as full time employees. While colleges provide players to both setups, the fact that nearly all athletic departments run at a subsidized loss means that they are actually driving up the operating costs by distorting the cost of the labor market when it comes to coaching, sports medicine, and the business side.
miller40



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PostPosted: 07/14/18 2:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Jeff Jacobs: No basketball champion has ever been ripped off worse than Diana Taurasi
Quote:
“Not until we either take drastic measures as players, to really look at ourselves in the mirror with the collective bargaining agreement. We folded. We got scared. We didn’t want to mention the word strike or pay raise or anything that came with losing your job. Last time I checked, the NBA has had a strike, the NHL has had a strike and they have millions to lose. So, if we’re not willing to losing everything as players, we don’t really have much to gain.”

https://www.ctpost.com/sports/jeffjacobs/amp/Jeff-Jacobs-No-basketball-champion-has-ever-been-13074325.php

I’m not sure the WNBA would really recover from a strike.


calbearman76



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PostPosted: 07/14/18 3:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

miller40 wrote:

I’m not sure the WNBA would really recover from a strike.



Agree. While others are saying that the NBA should contribute more to the WNBA, a strike could provide the impetus for them to pull the plug completely. The NBA wants good press from the W and the bad press of a strike could easily push them over the edge.


I believe that either a new or reconstituted league outside of the shackles of the NBA would come out of the ashes. But I doubt that league would be dramatically more successful. I don't think the players would make significantly more money; indeed they may make less. There would still be room on TV with all of the sports channels out there.

awhom111 also made a very good observation:

"While colleges provide players to both setups, the fact that nearly all athletic departments run at a subsidized loss means that they are actually driving up the operating costs by distorting the cost of the labor market when it comes to coaching, sports medicine, and the business side."

The same could be said that the model for paying women's basketball players overseas also creates a problem for the WNBA. The economic model is not driven by the same factors. Revenues are driven far more by corporate sponsorship (and/or direct ownership). It seems the teams lose money, at least from basketball operations alone, and yet they have driven up the salaries of at least the biggest stars. I tried unsuccessfully to get attendance (or ticket revenue) figures online (if someone has a source I would be interested), but from what I have seen on video the attendance seems lower than in the US.


toad455



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PostPosted: 07/14/18 8:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

miller40 wrote:
Jeff Jacobs: No basketball champion has ever been ripped off worse than Diana Taurasi
Quote:
“Not until we either take drastic measures as players, to really look at ourselves in the mirror with the collective bargaining agreement. We folded. We got scared. We didn’t want to mention the word strike or pay raise or anything that came with losing your job. Last time I checked, the NBA has had a strike, the NHL has had a strike and they have millions to lose. So, if we’re not willing to losing everything as players, we don’t really have much to gain.”

https://www.ctpost.com/sports/jeffjacobs/amp/Jeff-Jacobs-No-basketball-champion-has-ever-been-13074325.php

I’m not sure the WNBA would really recover from a strike.


Quote:
“At this point, I’m playing for health insurance,” Taurasi said. “I have a baby now, it’s very expensive. AETNA is very good. CIGNA - thanks for the dental care. Plus, I play for a great organization. There are players who aren’t that lucky. Playing in Westchester (New York) in front of 800 people. That’s a slap in the face for all the (New York) Liberty fans and players and no one seems to be bothered by it.”


More proof that Westchester is a dump. Several non-Liberty players have been vocal about WCC and how poor it is to play in.



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RavenDog



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PostPosted: 07/15/18 8:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
RavenDog wrote:
Pay the women! They play harder.

I'm all for elevating the league and paying the women more, but I don't think that stereotypes in either direction are helpful to the cause.


In my sarcastic rant, I should have been more careful in my writing and wording when I ended with the line you quoted. I did not intend for it to be taken literally as a reason for providing support to the WNBA. I should have left off "They play harder" as it could have been and was construed as a reason for the the support but I did not intend it to be taken that way. I stepped into it, so I will take my medicine.

My error.


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