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WNBA 09



Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 7594
Location: Dallas , Texas


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PostPosted: 07/11/18 9:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This might offend some but in todays reality the WNBA is for Lesbians older grandmas & Gay men and that sucks because i know alot of older heteros who enjoy watching they just dont get out to watch . Not worth their time. Ive brought a few friends to wings game with their children and they LOVED it kids especially , but if you dont know fundamental basketball you wont get attached to the W from my personal experiences.



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Speebs56



Joined: 19 Aug 2015
Posts: 95
Location: Orange county, CA


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PostPosted: 07/11/18 9:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
This might offend some but in todays reality the WNBA is for Lesbians older grandmas & Gay men and that sucks because i know alot of older heteros who enjoy watching they just dont get out to watch . Not worth their time. Ive brought a few friends to wings game with their children and they LOVED it kids especially , but if you dont know fundamental basketball you wont get attached to the W from my personal experiences.


Not sure how you mean "for lesbians older grandmas and gay men..." since the game is available for all. It's not like heteros and younger people, families, etc. are turned away at the door.

I'm just happy that those of us "lesbians older grandmas" who've followed the league since it started are no longer ignored, invisible, and shunned as was often the case in the early days of the WNBA.

The WNBA turned itself inside out trying to promote the league as "family friendly" which translated in many ways as homophobic. I get why -- but it was a drag just the same -- since we were present and supporting the league year in and year out.


Speebs56



Joined: 19 Aug 2015
Posts: 95
Location: Orange county, CA


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PostPosted: 07/11/18 10:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Speebs56 wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
This might offend some but in todays reality the WNBA is for Lesbians older grandmas & Gay men and that sucks because i know alot of older heteros who enjoy watching they just dont get out to watch . Not worth their time. Ive brought a few friends to wings game with their children and they LOVED it kids especially , but if you dont know fundamental basketball you wont get attached to the W from my personal experiences.


Not sure how you mean "for lesbians older grandmas and gay men..." since the game is available for all. It's not like heteros and younger people, families, etc. are turned away at the door.

I'm just happy that those of us "lesbians older grandmas" who've followed the league since it started are no longer ignored, invisible, and shunned as was often the case in the early days of the WNBA.

The WNBA turned itself inside out trying to promote the league as "family friendly" which translated in many ways as homophobic. I get why -- but it was a drag just the same -- since we were present and supporting the league year in and year out.


And ya know - a last thought (at least for now!) I don't know why so many think this is a zero sum game: acknowledge the popularity of the WNBA among lesbians (and grandmas and gay men) and that means that hetero moms, dads, kids, etc. CAN'T be fans?

It doesn't have to be (and typically isn't) one OR the other. All inclusive is the goal.


WNBA 09



Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 7594
Location: Dallas , Texas


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PostPosted: 07/11/18 10:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Speebs56 wrote:
Speebs56 wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
This might offend some but in todays reality the WNBA is for Lesbians older grandmas & Gay men and that sucks because i know alot of older heteros who enjoy watching they just dont get out to watch . Not worth their time. Ive brought a few friends to wings game with their children and they LOVED it kids especially , but if you dont know fundamental basketball you wont get attached to the W from my personal experiences.


Not sure how you mean "for lesbians older grandmas and gay men..." since the game is available for all. It's not like heteros and younger people, families, etc. are turned away at the door.

I'm just happy that those of us "lesbians older grandmas" who've followed the league since it started are no longer ignored, invisible, and shunned as was often the case in the early days of the WNBA.

The WNBA turned itself inside out trying to promote the league as "family friendly" which translated in many ways as homophobic. I get why -- but it was a drag just the same -- since we were present and supporting the league year in and year out.


And ya know - a last thought (at least for now!) I don't know why so many think this is a zero sum game: acknowledge the popularity of the WNBA among lesbians (and grandmas and gay men) and that means that hetero moms, dads, kids, etc. CAN'T be fans?

It doesn't have to be (and typically isn't) one OR the other. All inclusive is the goal.


Those are not my views thats the feedback i hear when i attempt to discuss the WNBA.



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tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 07/12/18 5:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
This might offend some but in todays reality the WNBA is for Lesbians older grandmas & Gay men and that sucks because i know alot of older heteros who enjoy watching they just dont get out to watch.



The only significant demographic groups you see at Dallas Wings games are grandmas, lesbians and gay men?


WNBA 09



Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 7594
Location: Dallas , Texas


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PostPosted: 07/12/18 9:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
This might offend some but in todays reality the WNBA is for Lesbians older grandmas & Gay men and that sucks because i know alot of older heteros who enjoy watching they just dont get out to watch.



The only significant demographic groups you see at Dallas Wings games are grandmas, lesbians and gay men?


Generally but the feedback are from random joes who have never attended a wings game and feel emasculated by even watching not sure if it's a pride thing seeing women do things they cannot or just pure ignorance.



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ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 07/12/18 10:03 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One of the sad things that happened recently in our high school league is that the girls and boys don't play at the same site on the same night. We did for many years, which forced the guys to watch the girls play -- and as mentioned above, they may not have really seen what was going on, but if the girls were good, they had to appreciate the skill level.

And I think that respect is the first step -- and if people don't take another step, well, that's OK.

The guys who troll female athletes are just looking for someone to be superior to, or they're channeling their negative feelings about women into an arena that really doesn't match their emotional needs.

The hope for a bigger fan base really lies with developing a more sophisticated fan base for basketball in general, a fan base that understands more of the intricacies of the game and enjoys good basketball enough to watch it without the need to have it spiced up with elite athleticism.

It's not inconceivable that could happen, as for a variety of reasons, basketball is a sport that could get more and more popular as time goes on. In a way, the survival of the WNBA up to this point is proof of that, though it does seem like it will take some major change for the league to become more than it is.



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RavenDog



Joined: 19 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: 07/12/18 1:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'd like to see the NBA players play with the hoop raised a foot or foot and a half and see if they can play the real game of basketball like the women do. It would be hilarious to watch some of those very wealthy NBA players who now play.

I have nothing against the NBA and those who love watching and following it. Enjoy! But, to me, the NBA is SIMPLE and BORING! NBA players mostly shoot jump shots to easy hoops, travel, dunk and jog. Athletic? Yes. Skilled in basketball? Hardly.... Most of the huge oversized lugs would not be playing if they had to play with the rim was raised on a par with the women. The more skilled, faster, quicker and basketball savvy players would take their places. The NBA is more about giant lugs than skilled basketball players. To play hard every game, like the women do, would tucker the majority of these lugs out so fast they'd need to have 25 players on each NBA team and keep oxygen and resuscitation devices on hand.

If the hoop was raised, NBA players would have to learn passing skills and basketball plays, how to actually make layups, demonstrate finesse in making short to midrange shots, run hard, dive for loose balls, actually defend one another, play team basketball, and more so, learn to play without traveling all over the place.

And just think if all NBA players did for society, children, charity and so forth what the women do...

To really appreciate the game of basketball, one must watch the WNBA play not the NBA. It's a tougher game.

The unfortunate business pay issues have been well documented above. For me, I'd like to see all NBA teams be required to provide financial support to the WNBA....kind of like Title IX. Do the NBA players really need to be paid $25-45 million a year? How about $24 to $39 million with $1 million going to the WNBA.

Pay the women! They play harder.


Speebs56



Joined: 19 Aug 2015
Posts: 95
Location: Orange county, CA


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PostPosted: 07/12/18 5:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

RavenDog wrote:
I'd like to see the NBA players play with the hoop raised a foot or foot and a half and see if they can play the real game of basketball like the women do. It would be hilarious to watch some of those very wealthy NBA players who now play.

I have nothing against the NBA and those who love watching and following it. Enjoy! But, to me, the NBA is SIMPLE and BORING! NBA players mostly shoot jump shots to easy hoops, travel, dunk and jog. Athletic? Yes. Skilled in basketball? Hardly.... Most of the huge oversized lugs would not be playing if they had to play with the rim was raised on a par with the women. The more skilled, faster, quicker and basketball savvy players would take their places. The NBA is more about giant lugs than skilled basketball players. To play hard every game, like the women do, would tucker the majority of these lugs out so fast they'd need to have 25 players on each NBA team and keep oxygen and resuscitation devices on hand.

If the hoop was raised, NBA players would have to learn passing skills and basketball plays, how to actually make layups, demonstrate finesse in making short to midrange shots, run hard, dive for loose balls, actually defend one another, play team basketball, and more so, learn to play without traveling all over the place.

And just think if all NBA players did for society, children, charity and so forth what the women do...

To really appreciate the game of basketball, one must watch the WNBA play not the NBA. It's a tougher game.

The unfortunate business pay issues have been well documented above. For me, I'd like to see all NBA teams be required to provide financial support to the WNBA....kind of like Title IX. Do the NBA players really need to be paid $25-45 million a year? How about $24 to $39 million with $1 million going to the WNBA.

Pay the women! They play harder.


I like this!


calbearman76



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 3137
Location: Carson City


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PostPosted: 07/12/18 7:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

RavenDog wrote:
I'd like to see the NBA players play with the hoop raised a foot or foot and a half and see if they can play the real game of basketball like the women do. It would be hilarious to watch some of those very wealthy NBA players who now play.

I have nothing against the NBA and those who love watching and following it. Enjoy! But, to me, the NBA is SIMPLE and BORING! NBA players mostly shoot jump shots to easy hoops, travel, dunk and jog. Athletic? Yes. Skilled in basketball? Hardly.... Most of the huge oversized lugs would not be playing if they had to play with the rim was raised on a par with the women. The more skilled, faster, quicker and basketball savvy players would take their places. The NBA is more about giant lugs than skilled basketball players. To play hard every game, like the women do, would tucker the majority of these lugs out so fast they'd need to have 25 players on each NBA team and keep oxygen and resuscitation devices on hand.

If the hoop was raised, NBA players would have to learn passing skills and basketball plays, how to actually make layups, demonstrate finesse in making short to midrange shots, run hard, dive for loose balls, actually defend one another, play team basketball, and more so, learn to play without traveling all over the place.

And just think if all NBA players did for society, children, charity and so forth what the women do...

To really appreciate the game of basketball, one must watch the WNBA play not the NBA. It's a tougher game.

The unfortunate business pay issues have been well documented above. For me, I'd like to see all NBA teams be required to provide financial support to the WNBA....kind of like Title IX. Do the NBA players really need to be paid $25-45 million a year? How about $24 to $39 million with $1 million going to the WNBA.

Pay the women! They play harder.


The WNBA was set up by the NBA and their teams have dumped millions of dollars into the sport. Whether that investment has helped to build the sport of basketball can be argued, but that was the point. The ABL was a true women's basketball league. Unfortunately they couldn't compete with the deep pockets of the NBA owners.


Now the WNBA is a mixed bag, trying to swim on its own with a few NBA owners remaining. They do a lot of outreach to the community and other things that help the sport as a whole. The NBA continues to partner with the WNBA in a few significant ways, including having WNBA players in their All-Star weekend. This may be the single best advertising for the WNBA all year. But the idea that the NBA should be required to pay the WNBA is incredibly stupid. Women play hard so the men should give them money. If you want women to be seen as weak and unable to fend for themselves this will do it.


Luuuc



Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: 07/12/18 8:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

RavenDog wrote:
Pay the women! They play harder.

I'm all for elevating the league and paying the women more, but I don't think that stereotypes in either direction are helpful to the cause.



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Richyyy



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 20719
Location: London


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PostPosted: 07/12/18 8:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The thing is, say that guy at Forbes is somewhere close to accurate about the players getting 20% of Basketball Related Income, at most. The players are bringing up that NBA players get right around 50% - understandably so, given the gap between those numbers. But if anything even close to 50% was remotely viable for the WNBA, we've had a lot of WNBA owners over the years not just fibbing about their balance sheets, or slanting their info, but outright wildly lying. Because if 50% is viable, and they're only paying out 20%, then you can't have been losing money hand over fist, or even only breaking even in the good years.

I don't pretend to have any genuine information about the cost/expenditure balance for a WNBA team compared to an NBA team, but given those elements it's hard to imagine it's that similar. As I've said many times before, I'd like to large parts of the CBA blown up and started again from scratch, but my fear is that the players latch on to that 50% figure. And when the owners say they can't/won't even approach it, things get dangerous. 20+ years makes this league feel permanent, but it's still flimsy enough that a strike/lockout could be disastrous. I really hope negotiations start early, and I hope everyone's realistic. The owners need to make changes, and they need to listen, and they need to make concessions in certain areas - but the players also have to look at the balance sheets and be honest about what's actually there. Don't just dig your heels in on numbers that might not be relevant in this particular case.



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Luuuc



Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: 07/12/18 8:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I hate the player salary discrepency as much as anyone, but I don't like the % Revenue argument either. It's clearly flawed when used in isolation.
A lot of the cost of the league and its teams would be staff salaries and general overheads, and those don't just stay in proportion to everything else. The top WNBA players might only be earing a tiny fraction of what the top NBA players earn, but at least they're getting a salary that they can live on. What they're effectively arguing with this basic % Revenue claim is that office staff should get pay cuts, referees should get pay cuts, the lease of their office space should cost a tiny fraction of what an NBA office costs to lease, hiring an arena for a WNBA game should cost only a tiny fraction of hiring an arena for an NBA game.
It just doesn't wash at all. So hopefully they've got more arguments up their sleeves than just that.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 07/13/18 10:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I agree it's a dangerous ploy ... and to beat my drum again, remember that NBA owners get rich because not only are their franchises worth something, they appreciate in value. WNBA owners do not have that source of black ink to draw on.



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awhom111



Joined: 19 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: 07/13/18 9:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It looks like there will be a lot of posturing before the CBA opt-out and then there will be plenty more in the 18+ months they have to negotiate before there are actual impacts if they get nowhere. It will be interesting to see if any ownership groups speak publically in the next few months.

The fixed sum salary cap seems to be criticized now with the percentage in vogue, but it is pretty good hedging against the possibility that the salary cap decreases.

Does anyone have any estimate that they have ever heard about how much a coaching/technical staff coaches a team. WNBA teams have to compete against colleges for coaching or hire people who would not coach in college so I would imagine that head coaches make a multiple of the maximum player salary. I was curious and checked a very good, but not elite college program and found that they have five people on staff who make more than the WNBA player maximum. Clearly the radical solution for the next CBA should be new rules that ban all coaching from anyone not on the roster and then the players can take all of that share too.

A lot of the same arguments have been made when it comes to American lower division soccer. The remaining pro league, the USL, pays low wages to players and for the most part did not employ them on a full year basis, which has insurance consequences, while having administrative staff as full time employees. While colleges provide players to both setups, the fact that nearly all athletic departments run at a subsidized loss means that they are actually driving up the operating costs by distorting the cost of the labor market when it comes to coaching, sports medicine, and the business side.
miller40



Joined: 29 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: 07/14/18 2:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Jeff Jacobs: No basketball champion has ever been ripped off worse than Diana Taurasi
Quote:
“Not until we either take drastic measures as players, to really look at ourselves in the mirror with the collective bargaining agreement. We folded. We got scared. We didn’t want to mention the word strike or pay raise or anything that came with losing your job. Last time I checked, the NBA has had a strike, the NHL has had a strike and they have millions to lose. So, if we’re not willing to losing everything as players, we don’t really have much to gain.”

https://www.ctpost.com/sports/jeffjacobs/amp/Jeff-Jacobs-No-basketball-champion-has-ever-been-13074325.php

I’m not sure the WNBA would really recover from a strike.


calbearman76



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: 07/14/18 3:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

miller40 wrote:

I’m not sure the WNBA would really recover from a strike.



Agree. While others are saying that the NBA should contribute more to the WNBA, a strike could provide the impetus for them to pull the plug completely. The NBA wants good press from the W and the bad press of a strike could easily push them over the edge.


I believe that either a new or reconstituted league outside of the shackles of the NBA would come out of the ashes. But I doubt that league would be dramatically more successful. I don't think the players would make significantly more money; indeed they may make less. There would still be room on TV with all of the sports channels out there.

awhom111 also made a very good observation:

"While colleges provide players to both setups, the fact that nearly all athletic departments run at a subsidized loss means that they are actually driving up the operating costs by distorting the cost of the labor market when it comes to coaching, sports medicine, and the business side."

The same could be said that the model for paying women's basketball players overseas also creates a problem for the WNBA. The economic model is not driven by the same factors. Revenues are driven far more by corporate sponsorship (and/or direct ownership). It seems the teams lose money, at least from basketball operations alone, and yet they have driven up the salaries of at least the biggest stars. I tried unsuccessfully to get attendance (or ticket revenue) figures online (if someone has a source I would be interested), but from what I have seen on video the attendance seems lower than in the US.


toad455



Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: 07/14/18 8:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

miller40 wrote:
Jeff Jacobs: No basketball champion has ever been ripped off worse than Diana Taurasi
Quote:
“Not until we either take drastic measures as players, to really look at ourselves in the mirror with the collective bargaining agreement. We folded. We got scared. We didn’t want to mention the word strike or pay raise or anything that came with losing your job. Last time I checked, the NBA has had a strike, the NHL has had a strike and they have millions to lose. So, if we’re not willing to losing everything as players, we don’t really have much to gain.”

https://www.ctpost.com/sports/jeffjacobs/amp/Jeff-Jacobs-No-basketball-champion-has-ever-been-13074325.php

I’m not sure the WNBA would really recover from a strike.


Quote:
“At this point, I’m playing for health insurance,” Taurasi said. “I have a baby now, it’s very expensive. AETNA is very good. CIGNA - thanks for the dental care. Plus, I play for a great organization. There are players who aren’t that lucky. Playing in Westchester (New York) in front of 800 people. That’s a slap in the face for all the (New York) Liberty fans and players and no one seems to be bothered by it.”


More proof that Westchester is a dump. Several non-Liberty players have been vocal about WCC and how poor it is to play in.



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RavenDog



Joined: 19 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: 07/15/18 8:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
RavenDog wrote:
Pay the women! They play harder.

I'm all for elevating the league and paying the women more, but I don't think that stereotypes in either direction are helpful to the cause.


In my sarcastic rant, I should have been more careful in my writing and wording when I ended with the line you quoted. I did not intend for it to be taken literally as a reason for providing support to the WNBA. I should have left off "They play harder" as it could have been and was construed as a reason for the the support but I did not intend it to be taken that way. I stepped into it, so I will take my medicine.

My error.


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