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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 11/09/17 12:57 am    ::: Want to see income inequality? Reply Reply with quote

Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos and Warren Buffett are richer than poorest half of US

Quote:
The three richest people in the US – Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos and Warren Buffett – own as much wealth as the bottom half of the US population, or 160 million people.


And approximately the bottom half of the U.S. population already pays no income tax at all, so no tax cuts will affect them.
tfan



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PostPosted: 11/09/17 2:15 am    ::: Re: Want to see income inequality? Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:


And approximately the bottom half of the U.S. population already pays no income tax at all, so no tax cuts will affect them.


Your linked article did not state that and this site disputes that. They pay a low percentage of the total federal income taxes paid, but they do pay it. That site claims that the bottom 50% is ether individuals or returns (not sure which) which have an income of $39,724 or less. The two rates at or below $39,724 are 10% (single $8,700 or less taxable income - point $17,400 or less taxable income) and 15% (single $8,701 – $35,350 taxable income, joint $17,401 – $70,700 taxable income).


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/09/17 1:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Seems like quibbling.

By those numbers, top 5% pays 60%, bottom 50% pays less than 3%.

Still true that there's no tax cuts that can have any significant impact on the bottom 50%. They hardly pay any taxes already.

That bottom 50% also generally does not itemize, so the elimination of deductions for SALT, interest on jumbo mortgages, large medical expenses, casualty losses, some charitable deductions, etc., will have no effect on them.

It's the top 5-25% range that will get screwed. They work for a living but will see their itemized deductions vanish. And will get double taxed when their SALT deduction goes away ( while the rich will see their estate taxes eliminated because we all know that double taxation is so unfair.)


tfan



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PostPosted: 11/10/17 12:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
.

It's the top 5-25% range that will get screwed. They work for a living but will see their itemized deductions vanish. And will get double taxed when their SALT deduction goes away ( while the rich will see their estate taxes eliminated because we all know that double taxation is so unfair.)


I don't see state and local tax deductions as preventing "double taxation". If you have $100,000 taxable income and a 10% state tax rate, you get to reduce your federal taxable income to $90,000 after deducting the $10,000 you paid in income taxes to the state. So you would be "double taxed" on $90,000. I don't see why Congress decided to let state taxes be deducted in the first place. Why should people in high tax states pay a lower federal amount than people in lower tax states?




Last edited by tfan on 11/10/17 4:12 am; edited 1 time in total
GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 11/10/17 2:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Tfan, your first link was to a site that used adjusted gross income (AGI), which of course can be much less than the taxpayer's gross income (GI). The Wikipedia article uses taxable income (TI), which is AGI reduced by the personal exemptions and deductions but not including tax offsets for tax credits.

A single person with a $39,000 AGI in 2017 would have a personal exemption of $4,050 and a standard deduction of $6,350. So, this person would have a TI of $28,600. If the person did not use the standard deduction but had large itemized deductions, he could wipe out much more of his TI. Then there are a variety of tax credits available to reduce the tax owed on the TI.

Therefore, it is quite possible that a person with a $39,000 AGI could owe very little to no tax. And this person's GI could have been well over $100,000 if he had a lot of income adjustments such as business expenses.

I estimated "approximately" the bottom half of the population pay no tax. Your first link says the bottom 50% pay about 2.8% of the taxes There are several sites that report that the bottom 45% of taxpayers pay no tax.
tfan



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PostPosted: 11/10/17 3:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Tfan, your first link was to a site that used adjusted gross income (AGI), which of course can be much less than the taxpayer's gross income (GI). The Wikipedia article uses taxable income (TI), which is AGI reduced by the personal exemptions and deductions but not including tax offsets for tax credits.

A single person with a $39,000 AGI in 2017 would have a personal exemption of $4,050 and a standard deduction of $6,350. So, this person would have a TI of $28,600. If the person did not use the standard deduction but had large itemized deductions, he could wipe out much more of his TI. Then there are a variety of tax credits available to reduce the tax owed on the TI.


Tax on $28,600 taxable income is $3,836.25. Still not an insignificant amount to someone at that income level (the vast majority of which would not be making huge deductions to get there). And if you think it is insignificant, then you must feel that we should lower that tax to 0, am I correct?

Quote:

Therefore, it is quite possible that a person with a $39,000 AGI could owe very little to no tax. And this person's GI could have been well over $100,000 if he had a lot of income adjustments such as business expenses.


Unless their expenses are phantom, like "real estate depreciation", then it doesn't matter how high their gross income is. They can't live off of money they have to use to pay a landlord or employees. The real estate depreciation situation though is one that Congress should attack. Buildings appreciate, but investors are allowed to depreciate them like they are a piece of farm machinery that is wearing out. And then when they hit $0 in value they can swap it with someone else and start depreciating again without having spent a dime.

Quote:

I estimated "approximately" the bottom half of the population pay no tax. Your first link says the bottom 50% pay about 2.8% of the taxes There are several sites that report that the bottom 45% of taxpayers pay no tax.


I did a search and found that Romney made that claim (47%) in 2011. The Washington Post investigated and to my surprise, they agree with that figure for 2011.

In this graph, they refer to "Percentage of U.S. Population Not Represented on a Taxable Return". That may result in percentage discrepancies if that counts people that didn't file and someone else limits the pool to "had an income and had to file". That is, an unemployed 28-year-old living with his parents would get counted in one, but not the other. Same with someone who is not married to their partner, but being supported by them.



GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 11/15/17 12:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's worldwide.

Richest 1% own half the world's wealth, study finds

Quote:
The world’s richest people have seen their share of the globe’s total wealth increase from 42.5% at the height of the 2008 financial crisis to 50.1% in 2017, or $140tn (£106tn), according to Credit Suisse’s global wealth report published on Tuesday.
Luuuc



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PostPosted: 11/15/17 1:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's pretty cool though how some of the wealth of the richest 0.1% trickles down to the next 0.9%



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Howee



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PostPosted: 11/15/17 6:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
It's pretty cool though how some of the wealth of the richest 0.1% trickles down to the next 0.9%


....and the 0.1% even begrudges that! Laughing Laughing



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/15/17 1:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
.

It's the top 5-25% range that will get screwed. They work for a living but will see their itemized deductions vanish. And will get double taxed when their SALT deduction goes away ( while the rich will see their estate taxes eliminated because we all know that double taxation is so unfair.)


I don't see state and local tax deductions as preventing "double taxation". If you have $100,000 taxable income and a 10% state tax rate, you get to reduce your federal taxable income to $90,000 after deducting the $10,000 you paid in income taxes to the state. So you would be "double taxed" on $90,000. I don't see why Congress decided to let state taxes be deducted in the first place. Why should people in high tax states pay a lower federal amount than people in lower tax states?


I see math wasn't your strongest class.


tfan



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PostPosted: 11/15/17 7:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
tfan wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
.

It's the top 5-25% range that will get screwed. They work for a living but will see their itemized deductions vanish. And will get double taxed when their SALT deduction goes away ( while the rich will see their estate taxes eliminated because we all know that double taxation is so unfair.)


I don't see state and local tax deductions as preventing "double taxation". If you have $100,000 taxable income and a 10% state tax rate, you get to reduce your federal taxable income to $90,000 after deducting the $10,000 you paid in income taxes to the state. So you would be "double taxed" on $90,000. I don't see why Congress decided to let state taxes be deducted in the first place. Why should people in high tax states pay a lower federal amount than people in lower tax states?


I see math wasn't your strongest class.


My calculation looks very strong when compared to the math you chose to post.

By the way, people that aren't rich also work for a living.


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PostPosted: 11/15/17 7:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
It's pretty cool though how some of the wealth of the richest 0.1% trickles down to the next 0.9%


....and the 0.1% even begrudges that! Laughing Laughing


Repeal the Estate Tax and give these poor folks a break.



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cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 12/01/17 7:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Wealth gap widening will accelerate. The Scumpublicans claim to have enough votes to pass tax cuts for their donors as Maine's Susan Collins sells out.

Good job, white people.



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mercfan3



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PostPosted: 12/01/17 10:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
Wealth gap widening will accelerate. The Scumpublicans claim to have enough votes to pass tax cuts for their donors as Maine's Susan Collins sells out.

Good job, white people.


So disappointed in Collins and Murkowski. I was just starting to trust them. Should have known better.


Holding onto the small hope that they're planning to change votes, and just don't feel like being harassed (again) for the next few hours.

Yeah, that bill is passing.



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 12/02/17 11:21 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:

So disappointed in Collins and Murkowski. I was just starting to trust them. Should have known better.


Why?

They are conservative Republicans. They're reason to be politicians is to give tax cuts to rich people. Why would they do anything else?


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PostPosted: 12/02/17 12:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:

So disappointed in Collins and Murkowski. I was just starting to trust them. Should have known better.


Why?

They are conservative Republicans. They're reason to be politicians is to give tax cuts to rich people. Why would they do anything else?


I thought they cared about people and had a limit. There’s a difference between giving tax cuts to the wealthy and signing THAT bill.



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 12/02/17 1:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:

So disappointed in Collins and Murkowski. I was just starting to trust them. Should have known better.


Why?

They are conservative Republicans. They're reason to be politicians is to give tax cuts to rich people. Why would they do anything else?


I thought they cared about people and had a limit. There’s a difference between giving tax cuts to the wealthy and signing THAT bill.


In this day, there is apparently not a difference. All of this is what the Republican party is.


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PostPosted: 12/03/17 3:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The stupidest thing about the tax cuts is that we know that they are going to come back later and scream about the debt. They will demand cuts to programs that help the poor like food stamps and medicaid because "we can't afford them, look at how in debt we are!"

It's disgusting through and through. Cut the programs that the neediest among us need so that the most well off can have more. And the dumbest part is that you just know there are some dirt-ass poor people in some deep red states applauding the Republicans for it too. Stupidity abounds.



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PostPosted: 12/03/17 11:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
The stupidest thing about the tax cuts is that we know that they are going to come back later and scream about the debt. They will demand cuts to programs that help the poor like food stamps and medicaid because "we can't afford them, look at how in debt we are!"

It's disgusting through and through. Cut the programs that the neediest among us need so that the most well off can have more. And the dumbest part is that you just know there are some dirt-ass poor people in some deep red states applauding the Republicans for it too. Stupidity abounds.



All true.

Just ask Bruce Bartlett.



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PostPosted: 12/15/17 4:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

https://twitter.com/byron_auguste/status/941321828760465408?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Byron Auguste Tweet:

Quote:
Mind-boggling but TRUE.

IMAGINE:🇺🇸USA of 1000 people with $1000 in wealth.💰

🎩 Richest 1 has $225
👔 Next 99 split $550
🧢 Last 900 split $225

And that 1 dude funds campaigns + superPACs. As Republicans in Congress stitch up $1.5T tax bill, everyone in the room owes him.


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PostPosted: 12/15/17 10:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

taropatch wrote:
https://twitter.com/byron_auguste/status/941321828760465408?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Byron Auguste Tweet:

Quote:
Mind-boggling but TRUE.

IMAGINE:🇺🇸USA of 1000 people with $1000 in wealth.💰

🎩 Richest 1 has $225
👔 Next 99 split $550
🧢 Last 900 split $225

And that 1 dude funds campaigns + superPACs. As Republicans in Congress stitch up $1.5T tax bill, everyone in the room owes him.



I'm sure this tidbit will be broadcast on Network News and be the subject of Sunday political programs.



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PostPosted: 12/15/17 12:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The gender wage gap in 6 charts (April 6, 2017)

https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/economy/2017/04/06/gender-wage-gap-6-charts/100122100/

Equal pay for women: Where does Phoenix rank against other cities? (December 15, 2017)

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/politicalinsider/2017/12/15/equal-pay-women-where-does-phoenix-rank-against-other-cities/953315001/


tfan



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PostPosted: 12/15/17 1:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

taropatch wrote:
https://twitter.com/byron_auguste/status/941321828760465408?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Byron Auguste Tweet:

Quote:
Mind-boggling but TRUE.

IMAGINE:🇺🇸USA of 1000 people with $1000 in wealth.💰

🎩 Richest 1 has $225
👔 Next 99 split $550
🧢 Last 900 split $225

And that 1 dude funds campaigns + superPACs. As Republicans in Congress stitch up $1.5T tax bill, everyone in the room owes him.


And the last 900 sit idly by while the USA imports millions upon never ending millions of workers (admittedly a well promoted sacred cow) and lets politicians argue about how much they are going to do to help illegal workers - and lets employers of illegal workers go unpunished. And they were virtually silent as tens of millions of their jobs were given to China. Those 900 aren't thinking too well.Things will evidently have to get worse before they ask the government to make the changes that will create a labor shortage, rather than a surplus. And unemployment - which counts part-time work equal to full-time, doesn't count people who gave up, and does not factor in wages, is not a good indicator of labor shortage/surplus. That indicator would be workers wages and how they are rising versus wages of management..




Last edited by tfan on 12/15/17 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
tfan



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PostPosted: 12/15/17 1:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
The gender wage gap in 6 charts (April 6, 2017)

https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/economy/2017/04/06/gender-wage-gap-6-charts/100122100/

Equal pay for women: Where does Phoenix rank against other cities? (December 15, 2017)

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/politicalinsider/2017/12/15/equal-pay-women-where-does-phoenix-rank-against-other-cities/953315001/


Nice to see they are being more honest, noting that they are talking about "median earnings" across all jobs, and not pay "for the same job".


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PostPosted: 12/15/17 2:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
taropatch wrote:
https://twitter.com/byron_auguste/status/941321828760465408?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Byron Auguste Tweet:

Quote:
Mind-boggling but TRUE.

IMAGINE:🇺🇸USA of 1000 people with $1000 in wealth.💰

🎩 Richest 1 has $225
👔 Next 99 split $550
🧢 Last 900 split $225

And that 1 dude funds campaigns + superPACs. As Republicans in Congress stitch up $1.5T tax bill, everyone in the room owes him.


And the last 900 sit idly by while the USA imports millions upon never ending millions of workers (admittedly a well promoted sacred cow) and lets politicians argue about how much they are going to do to help illegal workers - and lets employers of illegal workers go unpunished. And they were virtually silent as tens of millions of their jobs were given to China. Those 900 aren't thinking too well.Things will evidently have to get worse before they ask the government to make the changes that will create a labor shortage, rather than a surplus. And unemployment - which counts part-time work equal to full-time, doesn't count people who gave up, and does not factor in wages, is not a good indicator of labor shortage/surplus. That indicator would be workers wages and how they are rising versus wages of management..


And too many of those 900 voted for the biggest grifter rip-off artist fraud pathological liar who has a history of stiffing those 900 out of their earned wages; who hires lower-wage foreigners; has products manufactured in China; and is doing his best to give that guy at the top an even bigger slice of the pie while screwing many of the 900 out of health insurance.

Well done, 900.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 12/15/17 2:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:


And too many of those 900 voted for the biggest grifter rip-off artist fraud pathological liar who has a history of stiffing those 900 out of their earned wages; who hires lower-wage foreigners; has products manufactured in China; and is doing his best to give that guy at the top an even bigger slice of the pie while screwing many of the 900 out of health insurance.

Well done, 900.



His employment activities prior to election mean nothing. Otherwise, we wouldn't have so many lawyers sitting in Congress and people would have scratched their heads wondering what Dubya Bush did for half his adult life.

Trump still wants to protect his rich buddies by not enforcing immigration law in the workplace. But at least he wants a wall to make it a little more difficult for the rich to hire illegal workers. Something none of the other politicians want on either side of the aisle. So he's not as good as he could be with regard to illegal immigration, but he beats all the other bums.


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PostPosted: 12/15/17 2:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:


And too many of those 900 voted for the biggest grifter rip-off artist fraud pathological liar who has a history of stiffing those 900 out of their earned wages; who hires lower-wage foreigners; has products manufactured in China; and is doing his best to give that guy at the top an even bigger slice of the pie while screwing many of the 900 out of health insurance.

Well done, 900.



His employment activities prior to election mean nothing. Otherwise, we wouldn't have so many lawyers sitting in Congress and people would have scratched their heads wondering what Dubya Bush did for half his adult life.

Trump still wants to protect his rich buddies by not enforcing immigration law in the workplace. But at least he wants a wall to make it a little more difficult for the rich to hire illegal workers. Something none of the other politicians want on either side of the aisle. So he's not as good as he could be with regard to illegal immigration, but he beats all the other bums.


Does a 30-ft wall really make a difference that will offset no, little, or more expensive health insurance; dirtier water, earth, and air; bigger deficit; less so-called entitlements, and higher taxes?



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PostPosted: 12/15/17 4:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:


Does a 30-ft wall really make a difference that will offset no, little, or more expensive health insurance; dirtier water, earth, and air; bigger deficit; less so-called entitlements, and higher taxes?


What you meant to say was "Does semi-enforcement of immigration law really... ". For me it does. You can reverse any policy in four years. A wall would make it harder for the rich to employ illegal workers in place of Americans forever. Although, it is possible that the masses would go along when the rich demand it be torn down.


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PostPosted: 12/18/17 2:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:


Does a 30-ft wall really make a difference that will offset no, little, or more expensive health insurance; dirtier water, earth, and air; bigger deficit; less so-called entitlements, and higher taxes?


What you meant to say was "Does semi-enforcement of immigration law really... ". For me it does. You can reverse any policy in four years. A wall would make it harder for the rich to employ illegal workers in place of Americans forever. Although, it is possible that the masses would go along when the rich demand it be torn down.


If your concern is hiring American workers the answer is actually simple: require employers to gather legal social security numbers from all workers and deny tax deductions for any payments to individuals who have either provided no or false information. Additionally provide penalties for repeated violations. Finally do not allow for hiring of temporary workers from outside the country (as is used by Maralago extensively for peak season) and instead require the hiring of American workers. This would create higher paying jobs at the low end of the wage scale, but would also cause prices to increase in several areas, including fruits and vegetables, hotels, laundry, lawn care, day care, etc. This would be far more effective than a wall.


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PostPosted: 12/18/17 10:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:


Does a 30-ft wall really make a difference that will offset no, little, or more expensive health insurance; dirtier water, earth, and air; bigger deficit; less so-called entitlements, and higher taxes?


What you meant to say was "Does semi-enforcement of immigration law really... ". For me it does. You can reverse any policy in four years. A wall would make it harder for the rich to employ illegal workers in place of Americans forever. Although, it is possible that the masses would go along when the rich demand it be torn down.


No, I meant what I said, literally. I had assumed you were blinded by this single issue in the same way the so-called "right-to-life" crowd is by theirs. I just wanted confirmation is all.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 12/18/17 2:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
tfan wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:


Does a 30-ft wall really make a difference that will offset no, little, or more expensive health insurance; dirtier water, earth, and air; bigger deficit; less so-called entitlements, and higher taxes?


What you meant to say was "Does semi-enforcement of immigration law really... ". For me it does. You can reverse any policy in four years. A wall would make it harder for the rich to employ illegal workers in place of Americans forever. Although, it is possible that the masses would go along when the rich demand it be torn down.


No, I meant what I said, literally. I had assumed you were blinded by this single issue in the same way the so-called "right-to-life" crowd is by theirs. I just wanted confirmation is all.


Clearly the issue I am "blinded by", that is, feel most strongly about, is infinite immigration. But as a sacred cow, it is not a part of the political discourse or up for debate. Infinite illegal immigration is also a very important issue to me. But talking about a "30-foot wall" is just trying to minimize illegal immigration. If you want to find out if someone is "blinded by one issue", I would suggest you don't create a strawman - talk about the actual issue.


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PostPosted: 07/05/18 4:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Things will evidently have to get worse before they ask the government to make the changes that will create a labor shortage, rather than a surplus.


The U.S. labor shortage is reaching a critical point

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/05/the-us-labor-shortage-is-reaching-a-critical-point.html

Quote:
The economy has "bumped against the proverbial labor wall," David Rosenberg, chief economist and strategist at Gluskin Sheff, said in his morning note Thursday.



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