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tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 6854



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PostPosted: 07/01/18 11:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Quote:
Quote:


Good, then we shouldn't have any problem finding someone to make that case.


I would bet that nobody wants to offer a case since they can talk about the negative impact excessive population growth, particularly from a non-English speaking group, has on local, state and national government organizations and on workers, but they will alway be hit with charges of racism


More likely they know that there's no real case to be made and that rehashing Know Nothing Party rhetoric from the 1850's is a losing argument.


If there is no real case to be made, then why do they (both right and left) support it?


tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 6854



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PostPosted: 07/02/18 12:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
tfan wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:
tfan wrote:
justintyme wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:
I don’t want open borders.

I want an easier path to citizenship, and I want companies held responsible for employing undocumented immigrants, instead of punishing those who risked their lives to be here.

Bingo.

I am not going to condemn people for doing exactly what I would have done if I had been born into poverty, violence, or war because of luck of birth based upon arbitrary lines drawn on a map. The onus for employing undocumented people needs to fall on the people choosing to do so, not the people risking everything for a better life. Policy and our verbage used surrounding the issue needs to reflect that.


In what way are they "risking everything"?


People die trying to cross our border.


OK, a there is a small risk for economic migrants, notably for those who decide to cross in the summer without sufficient water. But asylum seekers, who are the sole focus of the issue of "separation of families", have no risk. They can head to their local American embassy, or if that is viewed as undoable for some reason, they can head to a border checkpoint.


Asylum seekers have nothing to do with open borders.


Nothing you have quoted in your post that I replied to is about open borders. It is about illegal immigration.

Asylum seekers have a lot to do with illegal immigration as people caught crossing illegally will claim asylum and cannot be sent back until their case has been adjudicated. And now, because of a big backlog, and because judges have ruled that children of asylum seekers cannot be detained more than 20 days, we tried to separate the parents from the children in order to detain the parents for the necessary amount of time till their case for asylum can be reviewed. And because of that issue - driven by claims of asylum - support for illegal immigration is now at historic highs. People are fighting mad in support of illegal immigration.

And because saying "they are fleeing for their lives" is a more convincing argument for illegal immigration than "they want a better life", those arguing in favor of illegal immigration will frequently focus on asylum seekers in their argument.

But asylum seeking, in the case of Central America, also has something to do with open borders. Normally asylum claims would be "political asylum" or "religious asylum" or "racial asylum". In this case, the people coming are not members of an ousted government in fear of a brutal regime, or of a different persecuted race, or of a different persecuted religion than the people in power. They are coming under a new category of "violence asylum". I don't see how it is possible to prove a case of "violence asylum". If you speak generally - "people are getting killed in my country" - and that is sufficient, then you have to let everyone in. Open the border with that country. If you speak specifically - "drug lord Antonio wants to kill me", then verification becomes almost impossible. You can't call Antonio or one of his henchmen and ask "are you trying to kill Juan Gomez?" and expect an honest answer - if you were given an actual drug lord and not a friend. And a call to Juan Gomez's cousin "calling regarding your cousin Juan Gomez who wants political asylum in the USA, is it justified?" is only going to get one answer. So just open the border, don't take a lot of time trying to verify the unverifiable.


pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 57585
Location: Where the action is


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PostPosted: 07/02/18 7:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
pilight wrote:
Quote:
Quote:


Good, then we shouldn't have any problem finding someone to make that case.


I would bet that nobody wants to offer a case since they can talk about the negative impact excessive population growth, particularly from a non-English speaking group, has on local, state and national government organizations and on workers, but they will alway be hit with charges of racism


More likely they know that there's no real case to be made and that rehashing Know Nothing Party rhetoric from the 1850's is a losing argument.


If there is no real case to be made, then why do they (both right and left) support it?


People believe lots of things without evidence



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Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 11241
Location: Oklahoma (in my heart), whilst on my way to Oregon!


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PostPosted: 07/02/18 8:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
tfan wrote:
pilight wrote:
Quote:
Quote:


Good, then we shouldn't have any problem finding someone to make that case.


I would bet that nobody wants to offer a case since they can talk about the negative impact excessive population growth, particularly from a non-English speaking group, has on local, state and national government organizations and on workers, but they will alway be hit with charges of racism


More likely they know that there's no real case to be made and that rehashing Know Nothing Party rhetoric from the 1850's is a losing argument.


If there is no real case to be made, then why do they (both right and left) support it?


People believe lots of things without evidence


Prove it. Razz



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