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Sun @ Liberty - 6/07/18
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Who will win this game?
Sun
62%
 62%  [ 10 ]
Liberty
37%
 37%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 16

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RavenDog



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PostPosted: 06/07/18 9:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's a shame but NY should not be losing all these close games. They've basically giving them away with periodic dumb play and out of control players.

It's the same script, inappropriate shots, not passing the ball, making the wrong pass, not finding the open player, taking quick tough shots early in the shot clock, continually trying to force the ball into Charles when everyone knows where the ball is going, Charles chucking up 3's at a 20% make rate, Boyd playing totally out of control and not passing the ball or setting up her team mates, playing Charles way too many minutes.

This game was decided on the last play but it was lost during the game.


Randy



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PostPosted: 06/07/18 9:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

TBH - I don't think NY has the talent to beat the Sun. They were lucky it was so close.


WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 06/07/18 10:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
TBH - I don't think NY has the talent to beat the Sun. They were lucky it was so close.


Agreed imo if NY couldn't win the title last season with this team and scheme then have an offseason of 1 change adding Coleman showed along with promoting a 1st time HC ex player (We know the history of how these turnout) i.have zero faith they will contend this year regardless their regular season record to finish. I see them as a Semifinal team at best but chances at winning it all would be overachieving for sure.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 06/07/18 10:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
TBH - I don't think NY has the talent to beat the Sun. They were lucky it was so close.


I don’t think luck had much to do with it. What’s that saying? Hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard.



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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 06/07/18 10:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
On the obvious level, the Liberty lost because of a great three-point shot by Stricklen at the buzzer. On a deeper level, I'd say the Liberty lost because Connecticut got 16 offensive rebounds. And because New York doesn't have a #2 scorer they can count on.

Kia Nurse may be that player in time, but that's too much of a burden to put on a rookie who has now played exactly six WNBA games. And I don't see anyone else on the roster who can be counted on to be the reliable #2 scorer that the team needs.

Last season, not counting Brittany Boyd's two games averaging 13 PPG, the team's second-leading scorer was Epiphanny Prince at 12.0 PPG. Shavonte Zellous averaged 11.7 PPG, Sugar Rodgers 10.5. Not good enough.


It felt like CT had 10 of those offensive rebounds in the fourth quarter.

Six, officially. Wink



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 06/07/18 10:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
Randy wrote:
TBH - I don't think NY has the talent to beat the Sun. They were lucky it was so close.


Agreed imo if NY couldn't win the title last season with this team and scheme then have an offseason of 1 change adding Coleman showed along with promoting a 1st time HC ex player (We know the history of how these turnout) i.have zero faith they will contend this year regardless their regular season record to finish. I see them as a Semifinal team at best but chances at winning it all would be overachieving for sure.


I'm pretty bummed out because all of this true.

Our uncertainty during the off season made it very hard to make moves in free agency.

This roster of one star and some serviceable role players and youth isn't bound for greatness. All off season the general consensus was we needed a second star/near star option. If we were trying to trade for it it didn't happen, and this season when everyone is healthy we'll be doing Charles and the rest by committee which will lower what little if any trade value we had on our roster.

We still might be able to fight for a lower level playoff spot but were not get past the top four teams 3 out of 5 times, and we'll probably struggle to survive the one and dones.

Next years draft is deep but we kind of need to be better now to impress possible new owners.

Is it time to consider packaging our 1st round pick and a player to try and grab a risky 2nd option?

If Stokes isn't back soon I think we'll need to consider waiving someone on the perimeter to get more help in the post.


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 06/07/18 10:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

RavenDog wrote:
This game was decided on the last play but it was lost during the game.


Yes.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 06/07/18 10:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:


This roster of one star and some serviceable role players and youth isn't bound for greatness. All off season the general consensus was we needed a second star/near star option. If we were trying to trade for it it didn't happen, and this season when everyone is healthy we'll be doing Charles and the rest by committee which will lower what little if any trade value we had on our roster.


I've said this about a second star as far back as 2015. It hasn't changed. I'd say it's possible that Kia Nurse will become a star, but to ask or expect that this season from a rookie picked tenth would be way off.

There's just too much falling on Tina Charles. Bitter irony for New Yorkers who care about both teams: it's just like Patrick Ewing's years with the Knicks. Charles is heroic, but her heroism just isn't enough and won't be. No fault of hers.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 06/07/18 10:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Not having a second star is why losing depth hurts the Liberty more than it hurts other teams unfortunately. Plus side is that one of the pieces of the puzzle, Boyd, looks to have retained a lot of her speed.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 3:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stokes just missed her 2nd game so we have two players out, if Stokes and Prince aren't looking ready for the next couple of games does NY qualify for the hardship exemption?

If so I would love to bring in another post options for an audition.

Nothing against Zahui B who I think we should be giving more minutes to, and Vaughn was a little better tonight, but they combined for 25 minutes which means we had Coleman at the 4 which might work for some teams but against the 3 headed rotation of J. Jones, C. Ogwumike and A. Thomas I would have liked to have had another banger/rebounder we could have put in.


NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 5:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
On the obvious level, the Liberty lost because of a great three-point shot by Stricklen at the buzzer. On a deeper level, I'd say the Liberty lost because Connecticut got 16 offensive rebounds. And because New York doesn't have a #2 scorer they can count on.

Kia Nurse may be that player in time, but that's too much of a burden to put on a rookie who has now played exactly six WNBA games. And I don't see anyone else on the roster who can be counted on to be the reliable #2 scorer that the team needs.

Last season, not counting Brittany Boyd's two games averaging 13 PPG, the team's second-leading scorer was Epiphanny Prince at 12.0 PPG. Shavonte Zellous averaged 11.7 PPG, Sugar Rodgers 10.5. Not good enough.


It felt like CT had 10 of those offensive rebounds in the fourth quarter.

Six, officially. Wink


Yes you are correct. Of note is that all 6 came after Coleman replaced Vaughn in the final 6 minutes.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 9:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Zahui B: In 11:21, she missed five shots, committed a foul and turned the ball over twice. -13 plus/minus.

Did I mention 0 rebounds and 0 assists?

I'm not saying she doesn't have potential, but why would you play someone who hasn't gotten a rebound in 11 minutes if you're struggling on the boards?

Why did Rodgers only play 3 minutes? She's not shooting particularly well, but she is 33% from three.

Finally, announced attendance 1,581. Were 1,000 bodies actually in seats?



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WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 10:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Zahui B: In 11:21, she missed five shots, committed a foul and turned the ball over twice. -13 plus/minus.

Did I mention 0 rebounds and 0 assists?

I'm not saying she doesn't have potential, but why would you play someone who hasn't gotten a rebound in 11 minutes if you're struggling on the boards?

Why did Rodgers only play 3 minutes? She's not shooting particularly well, but she is 33% from three.

Finally, announced attendance 1,581. Were 1,000 bodies actually in seats?


+1



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RavenDog



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 10:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Zahui B: In 11:21, she missed five shots, committed a foul and turned the ball over twice. -13 plus/minus.

Did I mention 0 rebounds and 0 assists?

I'm not saying she doesn't have potential, but why would you play someone who hasn't gotten a rebound in 11 minutes if you're struggling on the boards?

Why did Rodgers only play 3 minutes? She's not shooting particularly well, but she is 33% from three.

Finally, announced attendance 1,581. Were 1,000 bodies actually in seats?


+1


Zahui B may have improved her game somewhat but she still makes dumb moves and mistakes consistently and often. She is physical but doesn't rebound and is a poor passer.


myrtle



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 10:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
How long has the Liberty had those verdigris color home uniforms, or are they something new? Also, do they use verdigris accent color on the MSG court for Liberty games? My memory is failing.


[sorry I'm late. missed the game and just now reading the thread]...But yes, they've been using that color all last year as well - both unis and court. The first time I saw it, I wanted to puke, but slowly I've gotten used to it. I mean, at least it's unique, even if uniquely ugly.



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 12:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
How long has the Liberty had those verdigris color home uniforms, or are they something new? Also, do they use verdigris accent color on the MSG court for Liberty games? My memory is failing.


[sorry I'm late. missed the game and just now reading the thread]...But yes, they've been using that color all last year as well - both unis and court. The first time I saw it, I wanted to puke, but slowly I've gotten used to it. I mean, at least it's unique, even if uniquely ugly.


Thanks for replying. It's obviously an attempt to match and recall the verdigris on the Statue of Liberty, but I couldn't recall the amount of the color all over the Liberty place. I like green, blue and blue-green, so the unis are sort of okay for me, but I don't like the unusual color all over the sidelines, endlines, and in the lane.

On a different issue, I've been at many Ossining H.S. games at the WCC that drew much bigger crowds than this game. That doesn't actually surprise me because surely, in the aggregate, there are many more GBB high school fans in the country than WNBA fans.
toad455



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 12:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Zahui B: In 11:21, she missed five shots, committed a foul and turned the ball over twice. -13 plus/minus.

Did I mention 0 rebounds and 0 assists?

I'm not saying she doesn't have potential, but why would you play someone who hasn't gotten a rebound in 11 minutes if you're struggling on the boards?

Why did Rodgers only play 3 minutes? She's not shooting particularly well, but she is 33% from three.

Finally, announced attendance 1,581. Were 1,000 bodies actually in seats?



+1


I have to wonder how many STHs they have now. The Liberty we're always tops in the league when it came to STHs, now they're likely on the bottom.



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bballgrl



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 4:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Looking forward to this game. I want the Sun to set.

Hopefully Katie Smith remembers how to play Alyssa Thomas.


I was a bit surprised at the shape Katie is in.


NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 5:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

For me the end of the game is not about Zahui vs. Vaughn. It’s about not having a smaller, slower lineup on the floor up four with 6 minutes left. If you want the vet post out there at the end, fine. I just want to win the damn game. Small lineups need to be situational, especially when you’re not using it to dictate tempo or matchups (the Libs’ small lineup isn’t exactly loaded with speed). Beyond absurd and I said it to my friend as soon as Coleman subbed in. All 6 of CTs offensive rebounds in the fourth came after Vaughn subbed out.

I don’t understand it. I feel that there’s things Katie is doing well. But not putting this team in a position to hold onto leads in close games negates it. A day later and I’m still heated. And I’m thinking back to a quote to the effect that one of the most challenging/new parts of the job for her is deciding on subs. It shows. We have 28 games left in approximately 80 days. The time for being rigid is over. This team isn’t good enough to win on finesse talent. It also isn’t good enough to win without more flexibility.

Get it together man!!!



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 7:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Sadly, I believe this is part of having a rookie head coach. If we interviewed Katie Smith off the record and she answered all our questions candidly, I'm sure she'd have her reasons for why she had Sugar Rodgers out there at the end of a close game, why she had a small lineup out there at the end of a different close game, etc. etc.

I think you're right. New York has been in six close games and has won two of them. That ain't good. Will Smith improve as a head coach this season? I believe she will. Will she improve enough, and fast enough, to lead the team to a strong finish over the next 28 games? Maybe not.

A rookie in any position in any sports league is a rookie. There's just no way around that. I love the start that Kia Nurse has had and I believe she has terrific potential for the future. But will she have individual games--or even a stretch of games--where she vividly reminds us she's a rookie? Yes. I view Katie Smith the same way.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 7:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Here’s the thing that gets me. Katie Smith was voted number 1 in the WNBA GM survey for basketball IQ as a player. Her X’s and O’s are...in my estimation...pretty darn good. And as a rookie coach maybe her adjustments might not always be there. I’d expect that. Or using Sugar late in the last game in isolation. Perfect example of being a rookie head coach.

But knowing Coleman/Charles was a god awful matchup vs. Jones/Chiney in that situation is stunningly obvious. It’s not like the matchup has worked against bigger lineups in similar situations in past games either. It was the same situation and result in Chicago...vs. worse players than we saw last night. The clarity of the senselessness of this is what gets me. It’s not hard to figure out.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 7:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Here’s the thing that gets me. Katie Smith was voted number 1 in the WNBA GM survey for basketball IQ as a player. Her X’s and O’s are...in my estimation...pretty darn good. And as a rookie coach maybe her adjustments might not always be there. I’d expect that.

But knowing Coleman/Charles was a god awful matchup vs. Jones/Chiney in that situation is stunningly obvious. It’s not like the matchup has worked against bigger lineups in similar situations in past games either. It was the same situation and result in Chicago...vs. worse players than we saw last night. The clarity of the senselessness of this is what gets me. It’s not hard to figure out.


You say that it was "stunningly obvious" that this was a terrible matchup. So if it's so "stunningly obvious," senseless, and "not hard to figure out"--and she's done this more than once with bad results--what is your explanation?

Mine is that she's a rookie head coach.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 7:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I’m not disagreeing with the rookie head coach part of the explanation. Being a rookie is a part of it. I guess I’m saying I don’t think it’s an excuse. I’m not saying that you’re saying it’s an excuse either. Just that I’ve seen Atlanta play this year with a rookie head coach. Saw Chicago last year with one. I didn’t get the impression either time that they were sticking with rotations or lineups that made no sense matchup-wise. I can’t remember honestly seeing a head coach use small lineups, rookie or otherwise, unless the lineup dictated something. Either tempo or a clear matchup advantage. This did neither.

The fact that’s she doing the same thing late in every game...whether winning or losing...is also partially due to being new IMO. But I’ve also seen rookie coaches show more flexibility too. The fact that there’s none here regardless of the situation...goes beyond being new and into the territory of trying to make her own mark at the expense of winning. That’s troubling.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 8:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I’m not disagreeing with the rookie head coach part of the explanation. Being a rookie is a part of it. I guess I’m saying I don’t think it’s an excuse. I’m not saying that you’re saying it’s an excuse either. Just that I’ve seen Atlanta play this year with a rookie head coach. Saw Chicago last year with one. I didn’t get the impression either time that they were sticking with rotations or lineups that made no sense matchup-wise. I can’t remember honestly seeing a head coach use small lineups, rookie or otherwise, unless the lineup dictated something. Either tempo or a clear matchup advantage. This did neither.


I'm definitely not saying what I have as an excuse, just as a likely explanation. I think she's making some mistakes in how she's using her roster. I surely feel for you and any other Liberty fans who are frustrated.

In life, on and off the basketball court, sometimes we stick with an approach that clearly isn't working. Sometimes it's hard for us to say to ourselves: I was wrong. I hope Katie Smith will decide that about the small lineups. Ideally before Sunday.



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PostPosted: 06/09/18 4:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yes Katie is a rookie coach but lib fans probably need to get used to losing more games this season. Other teams are just more talented and Lib really only have 1 big star player while other teams have 2 or more better role players.



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