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Even now, Hillary is still less popular than Trump
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tfan



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 6:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The "we'd fall apart without them" justification for illegal immigration is correctly stated as "I am happier saving some money by not paying higher wages to American workers".


tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 10/07/17 7:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
I'm on a tangent. I agree with much of what you say since you've gotten married.


I should have married you.


Do you think marriage changed your political views as Glenn seems to?


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 9:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

No. lol. Marriage did not change my political views.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 3:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
The "we'd fall apart without them" justification for illegal immigration is correctly stated as "I am happier saving some money by not paying higher wages to American workers".


It's not about saving money. These people don't care about paper money. They wipe their butts with what grounds-keeping services cost. It's deeper and much uglier than that. And it's really a hard thing for people to swallow in terms of believing it is happening as empirical fact or that the largely left-leaning affluent of California could ever be engaged in what amounts to a soft but very real form of employment discrimination, based on maybe the most established illegal reason, that being on the basis of ethnicity. And then fucking add to that maybe the most incredible angle of all, that those being discriminated against in this case are American citizens, and the direct beneficiaries of the discrimination are either legal immigrants or, as is more often the case, undocumented foreigners.

Truth is that the affluent here don't want black people or lower class white people crawling all over their properties and neighborhoods. This isn't a decision that one household has made, either. This is an understanding. This is decades of wealthy families sitting around dinner tables or the pool with friends and neighbors speaking frankly among themselves. I've been there.

Latino immigrants come to this country from another world. Something like an economic moonscape. And the ones who are compelled to migrate here from that world do so because back in Mexico they subsisted at the bottom of the economic ladder. The US offers endless opportunities for almost constant work of one sort or another. They are socialized and as a culture are prepared for the work that they come here to do. And they'll do it until they drop.

Quick sidebar. Why that works so well here in Cali for (almost) everyone but can never really work anywhere else in the United States in the same way? Because of how much money there is in California. There's so much wealth here. The amount of money that exists here in California, the jobs that are created and the money that is thrown at people, is another of California's open secrets. Open in that you can see it. A secret because the effects of it permeate so much of life here and so much of that in ways that are happening below the visible surface of things. Money is thrown around here. The cost of living to be here dictates that. But the cost of living then reaches out and snatches the money right back. It's a hamster wheel. The bottom line, however, is that it's a lot of money. It sustains this place like nowhere else, I would suggest, on the face of the earth.

(And we've never even talked about small businesses here in and around LA. lol. People might read that and their eyes glaze over with boredom. But that's, again, just not knowing what you don't know. I need to start another thread!)

You can contrast this place even with many other major cities in the country without too much trouble. But the chasm that exists between how much money is here and how much there is in economically depressed parts of this country really provides a stark picture. There are places in this country where a 30K income is sustaining a family of five. Where houses cost under 70K. Where there are essentially no locally owned small business and where unemployment and underemployment, lack of opportunity, etc., is an intractable reality. And add to that all the social breakdowns that occur in that kind of environment including population loss. If into that environment you throw dirt-poor Mexicans to compete or even suck up entirely whatever work there is you've exacerbated already broken local economies and created a basis for the hostility that we see reflected in attitudes of intolerance towards immigrants into this country, legal or otherwise.

Again, that's just not how California works. California NEEDS these people because they are an engine of both the prosperity of the region but also, as the Malibu councilwoman bluntly says, they are needed "to support our comfortable lifestyle." And all that that entails, people.

Back to the issue of discrimination. There's going to be people who say that we have long passed the era in this country when black people would want jobs or what are basically careers in domestic service to rich white people. There's some truth to that. But that's a decision that every member of every generation of black America should be making for him or her self within the economic realities of their lives and that of their families. Highly educated and affluent whites looking to hire domestic help shouldn't be making that race-based decision for those people.


mercfan3



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 4:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
The "we'd fall apart without them" justification for illegal immigration is correctly stated as "I am happier saving some money by not paying higher wages to American workers".


Correct.

So you agree that we should make an easier and quicker path to citizenship? Wink



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tfan



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 5:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
tfan wrote:
The "we'd fall apart without them" justification for illegal immigration is correctly stated as "I am happier saving some money by not paying higher wages to American workers".


Correct.

So you agree that we should make an easier and quicker path to citizenship? Wink


Nope. Jail the people that hire them and they'll have to return to their country and wait to get in legally with the rest of the unbounded millions.

It is notable that a recent Whitehouse proposal for enforcing immigration is called as being from the "hardliners". You are hardline if you want to enforce the law.


tfan



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 5:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
tfan wrote:
The "we'd fall apart without them" justification for illegal immigration is correctly stated as "I am happier saving some money by not paying higher wages to American workers".


It's not about saving money. These people don't care about paper money.


I have heard that "we'd fall apart without them" rationale in support of illegal immigration from people who aren't rich. Although they may all be coming from the "they do the jobs Americans won't do" standpoint, rather than thinking about the illegal wages saving them money.

I heard a lawyer (no household servants of his own, but knew really rich CEO level guys) say that the rich liked having illegal help because "that forces loyalty". I personally suspect with any household help, the rich prefer someone who doesn't know English so they don't have to interact with them.


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: 10/09/17 8:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I find it interesting that in the midst of near-universal condemnation, we haven't heard a peep out of Hillary Clinton about her buddy and biggest financier, Harvey Weinstein.

Heck, even his brother trashed him and fired him from their company.

Haven't heard a word from Bill or from Obama either - two other huge beneficiaries of Harvey's largesse.


readyAIMfire53



Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 5419
Location: Durham, NC


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PostPosted: 10/09/17 9:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
tfan wrote:
The "we'd fall apart without them" justification for illegal immigration is correctly stated as "I am happier saving some money by not paying higher wages to American workers".


It's not about saving money. These people don't care about paper money.


I have heard that "we'd fall apart without them" rationale in support of illegal immigration from people who aren't rich. Although they may all be coming from the "they do the jobs Americans won't do" standpoint, rather than thinking about the illegal wages saving them money.

I heard a lawyer (no household servants of his own, but knew really rich CEO level guys) say that the rich liked having illegal help because "that forces loyalty". I personally suspect with any household help, the rich prefer someone who doesn't know English so they don't have to interact with them.


Simplistic "answers" do not take into account the complexity of reasons people leave their home countries. By a long shot, most do it to survive and if we faced death or going to a country without legal documents, we'd all choose to stay alive.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 11:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

readyAIMfire53 wrote:
tfan wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
tfan wrote:
The "we'd fall apart without them" justification for illegal immigration is correctly stated as "I am happier saving some money by not paying higher wages to American workers".


It's not about saving money. These people don't care about paper money.


I have heard that "we'd fall apart without them" rationale in support of illegal immigration from people who aren't rich. Although they may all be coming from the "they do the jobs Americans won't do" standpoint, rather than thinking about the illegal wages saving them money.

I heard a lawyer (no household servants of his own, but knew really rich CEO level guys) say that the rich liked having illegal help because "that forces loyalty". I personally suspect with any household help, the rich prefer someone who doesn't know English so they don't have to interact with them.


Simplistic "answers" do not take into account the complexity of reasons people leave their home countries. By a long shot, most do it to survive and if we faced death or going to a country without legal documents, we'd all choose to stay alive.


We aren't talking about why they come. Rather, we are talking about why people want them to come illegally.

But while those sympathetic to their illegal migration like to emphasize that a small number may have fled a civil war, if they had to be honest they would concede that the vast majority are economic migrants looking for a higher standard of living. The same as the legal immigrants.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/27/17 6:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Dearest Jammerbirdi:

You speak with such conviction, on things we mere mortals in The East (South/Midwest/Pacific Northwest/etc.) can only marvel at. It almost reverberates with the overtones of a Limbaughwellian soliloquy. I can only say: Prove It.


Continuing in this effort.

Malibu Church Ends Homeless Dinners

Some homeless people believed residents were reacting against an influx of African Americans from Santa Monica and downtown Los Angeles. Malibu is 90% white.

“People don’t want to see homeless people around,” said Tyrone Valiant, 70, as he waited outside the Malibu library for a bus. “Now they’re cutting off the food.”


cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 10391
Location: In a world where a dbag like Trump isn't potus. If u were in my safe space, you'd have to be f'd up


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PostPosted: 05/29/18 11:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
pilight wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
And, just as the same coin has different sides, so are there differences in the parties.


And like a coin, the differences from one side to the other are just window dressing. You seem to believe the coin is worth more if it's face down than if it's face up.


Thank you!

Show me why you believe that if the 3 branches of the Federal gov't were currently under Dem control, that:

-Gorsuch would be a SCJ

-Tax cuts for the 1%, disguised as a healthcare bill that would gut Medicaid, increase premiums for seniors, etc., would be a possibility.

-Obama environmental protection laws would be undone.

-The Russia problem would be the same.

To name a few.



More than 10 months later, should I figure an answer ain't on its way? Razz



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eclair



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PostPosted: 06/05/18 10:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Because I’m in Phoenix and planning to enjoy dinner with Caune on Thursday, I thought I’d stop by for old times’ sake and see how you all are doing. Thanks for not disappointing me! Miss you knuckleheads! 😘



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Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: Oklahoma (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 06/06/18 10:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

eclair wrote:
Because I’m in Phoenix and planning to enjoy dinner with Caune on Thursday, I thought I’d stop by for old times’ sake and see how you all are doing. Thanks for not disappointing me! Miss you knuckleheads! 😘

Well, THAT'S a disappointing tease! Pray tell, you're certainly not above the fray, are you? Come join the FUN!! Cool



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 06/06/18 1:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

eclair wrote:
Because I’m in Phoenix and planning to enjoy dinner with Caune on Thursday, I thought I’d stop by for old times’ sake and see how you all are doing. Thanks for not disappointing me! Miss you knuckleheads! 😘


Ha! Wish I was there!



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