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WNBA 09



Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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Location: Dallas , Texas


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PostPosted: 05/24/18 5:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
They should let go of him even if he makes the playoffs.
ATL let him go after losing the 2013(?) Finals. They probably figured out he wasn’t the main reason they made it to the finals. Only thing is... you gotta find somebody that’s for sure better than him. Don’t pull another Cooper out of the hat. Would Lieberman be interested and would she be any better? Just one idea, not saying it was a great one.


No we dont want Lieberman , too much lockeroom drama that comes along with her. That would most defintiely be a step in the wrong direction.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 05/24/18 5:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
Shades wrote:
They should let go of him even if he makes the playoffs.
ATL let him go after losing the 2013(?) Finals. They probably figured out he wasn’t the main reason they made it to the finals. Only thing is... you gotta find somebody that’s for sure better than him. Don’t pull another Cooper out of the hat. Would Lieberman be interested and would she be any better? Just one idea, not saying it was a great one.


No we dont want Lieberman , too much lockeroom drama that comes along with her. That would most defintiely be a step in the wrong direction.


Well then the people who think Williams should be replaced should also come with some ideas of who to replace him with.

It’s kinda like people who think the league needs expansion, but are too lazy to identify good owners. We don’t need ideas for expansion club cities. We need ideas for expansion club owners.

The pattern lately seems to hire an WNBA assistant, and I guess that hasn’t worked too badly. Shelly Patterson always seems to fly under the radar. Surely she absorbed a ton from Reeve and the organization in 8 years.



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WNBA 09



Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: 05/24/18 5:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
Shades wrote:
They should let go of him even if he makes the playoffs.
ATL let him go after losing the 2013(?) Finals. They probably figured out he wasn’t the main reason they made it to the finals. Only thing is... you gotta find somebody that’s for sure better than him. Don’t pull another Cooper out of the hat. Would Lieberman be interested and would she be any better? Just one idea, not saying it was a great one.


No we dont want Lieberman , too much lockeroom drama that comes along with her. That would most defintiely be a step in the wrong direction.


Well then the people who think Williams should be replaced should also come with some ideas of who to replace him with.

It’s kinda like people who think the league needs expansion, but are too lazy to identify good owners. We don’t need ideas for expansion club cities. We need ideas for expansion club owners.

The pattern lately seems to hire an WNBA assistant, and I guess that hasn’t worked too badly. Shelly Patterson always seems to fly under the radar. Surely she absorbed a ton from Reeve and the organization in 8 years.


I for one am ok with fred for now , i just want PP's Laughing Laughing



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Fighting Artichoke



Joined: 12 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: 05/24/18 5:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
Shades wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
Shades wrote:
They should let go of him even if he makes the playoffs.
ATL let him go after losing the 2013(?) Finals. They probably figured out he wasn’t the main reason they made it to the finals. Only thing is... you gotta find somebody that’s for sure better than him. Don’t pull another Cooper out of the hat. Would Lieberman be interested and would she be any better? Just one idea, not saying it was a great one.


No we dont want Lieberman , too much lockeroom drama that comes along with her. That would most defintiely be a step in the wrong direction.


Well then the people who think Williams should be replaced should also come with some ideas of who to replace him with.

It’s kinda like people who think the league needs expansion, but are too lazy to identify good owners. We don’t need ideas for expansion club cities. We need ideas for expansion club owners.

The pattern lately seems to hire an WNBA assistant, and I guess that hasn’t worked too badly. Shelly Patterson always seems to fly under the radar. Surely she absorbed a ton from Reeve and the organization in 8 years.


I for one am ok with fred for now , i just want PP's Laughing Laughing

But what if the PP's turn into Ahkators and Zahui B's? Sometimes later picks came out just fine (Sykes and Davis).


Mojo



Joined: 10 May 2017
Posts: 233
Location: Texas


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PostPosted: 05/24/18 7:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fighting Artichoke wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
Shades wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
Shades wrote:
They should let go of him even if he makes the playoffs.
ATL let him go after losing the 2013(?) Finals. They probably figured out he wasn’t the main reason they made it to the finals. Only thing is... you gotta find somebody that’s for sure better than him. Don’t pull another Cooper out of the hat. Would Lieberman be interested and would she be any better? Just one idea, not saying it was a great one.


No we dont want Lieberman , too much lockeroom drama that comes along with her. That would most defintiely be a step in the wrong direction.


Well then the people who think Williams should be replaced should also come with some ideas of who to replace him with.

It’s kinda like people who think the league needs expansion, but are too lazy to identify good owners. We don’t need ideas for expansion club cities. We need ideas for expansion club owners.

The pattern lately seems to hire an WNBA assistant, and I guess that hasn’t worked too badly. Shelly Patterson always seems to fly under the radar. Surely she absorbed a ton from Reeve and the organization in 8 years.


I for one am ok with fred for now , i just want PP's Laughing Laughing

But what if the PP's turn into Ahkators and Zahui B's? Sometimes later picks came out just fine (Sykes and Davis).


2011 - Cambage #2
2012 - Glory # 4
2013 - Skylar # 3
2014 - Odyssey # 3
2015 - Zahii B # 2
2016 - Powers # 5
2017 - Akhator/Gray/Davis # 3 # 4 # 10
2018 - Stephens # 6
That's a lot of years of high picks. We should be doing better than this. It is the nature of sports to axe the coach when a team loses too much. What is too much?




Last edited by Mojo on 05/24/18 10:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
Rock Hard



Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Posts: 5348
Location: Chocolate Paradise


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PostPosted: 05/24/18 9:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

With the return of Cambage to Dallas a losing record would be unacceptable. Management should fire Fred if this squad loses more than seventeen games.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 9:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Great point by Shades on who's out there better than Williams ...

Same thing with refs, backup point guards and so on down the line. It's one thing to say someone isn't good enough and should be replaced; but it's not a complete statement unless you say who be the replacement.



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Randy



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: 05/25/18 9:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Great point by Shades on who's out there better than Williams ...

Same thing with refs, backup point guards and so on down the line. It's one thing to say someone isn't good enough and should be replaced; but it's not a complete statement unless you say who be the replacement.


Cooper was thought by some to be better than Fred and he was a COY. Ross is a good defensive minded coach and also a COY so she might be better. Perhaps the best situation would be for Fred to hire Ross as assistant coach for defense like Meadors did. (May not interest Ross, of course.) Boucek won a championship though it is debatable whether she is better than Fred.


Shades



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 05/25/18 10:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

COY often times is a most-improved team award, whether the coach really deserves most of the credit or not.

Quote:
Boucek won a championship though it is debatable whether she is better than Fred.


I’m wondering if you’re confusing Boucek with Donovan.

I think Donovan gets a bit of a bad rap, maybe because of her RBF. The core of the CON team was built by her. Now Miller reaps the benefits.



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Randy



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 10:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
COY often times is a most-improved team award, whether the coach really deserves most of the credit or not.

Quote:
Boucek won a championship though it is debatable whether she is better than Fred.


I’m wondering if you’re confusing Boucek with Donovan.

I think Donovan gets a bit of a bad rap, maybe because of her RBF. The core of the CON team was built by her. Now Miller reaps the benefits.


I was thinking about Boucek, but I was wrong her winning a 'ship. I was thinking Sacromento won it with her, but it was Whiz, yet another name that is out there. Better than Fred? I didn't include Donovan either, and I suppose there is some argument to be made she is better than Fred, though I wouldn't know. These are all pretty much the usual suspects, though for one reason or another, none of them may be interested, available or an improvement. There are probably some I forgot. TBH - none of these names really would excite me were I a WFFL.


zune69



Joined: 27 May 2010
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PostPosted: 05/25/18 10:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

1.Carol Ross-4th highest regular season win% of all-time....644(58-32)...High expectations got Ross fired.

Ross Record:
2012:24-10
2013:24-10
2014:10-12

Ross got fired with a 10-12 record after back to back 24 win seasons.

2.Ann Donovan-Great post player coach...Liz would greatly benefit from having Ann as a HC.

3.Eric Thibault...Son of Mike Thibault...has 10 years experience as a wnba assistant coach.He's paid his dues.

If Dallas does not make the playoffs Fred should get the AX....Standing Pat would be asinine...Fred's record as Tulsa/Dallas HC is 58-81...This is Fred's 5th season as Shock/Wings HC....How much rope should Fred be given?


Shades



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 10:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Retreads haven’t been doing all that well. Assistant coaches are in vogue.



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Randy



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 10:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Probably because they don' command the high salaries, and I think people are just tired of the usual suspects.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 10:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Carol Ross is a reasonable choice, but remember, the only coach since 1994 not to win a gold for USA is Anne Donovan.

And when Donovan won in Seattle, Boucek was an assistant -- and sometimes people who are very good assistants are not necessarily good head coaches. When Boucek left, Seattle did not do as well.

What's Ross doing now?



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root_thing



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: 05/25/18 10:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I thought Taj was brought in to improve the Wings defense. For that matter, Erin Phillips played on some strong defensive teams over her career. I don't think there's a lack of knowledge on the bench. It's either a matter of philosophy or a lack of will.

It does seem to me that the Wings half-court perimeter defense is better since Taj got there. Last year, the interior defense remained a problem and there was also the crappy transition defense. The interior defense should be better this year with Cambage protecting the rim. As for the transition defense, we discussed it on previous threads. Tulsa/Dallas loves crashing the offensive boards rather than getting back on defense. The Shock/Wings have led the league in offensive rebounding for the last three years and they were second in 2014. That to me is a strategic choice. Fred can just change his mind and decide that getting back on defense is more important than O-boards. Then, make the players do it.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 11:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
Probably because they don' command the high salaries, and I think people are just tired of the usual suspects.


By “not doing well” I was talking about results. Although Donovan built a great core in CON, upper management was about a year too impatient with her for her to reap the benefits. Cooper in ATL was a failure. Williams has been underperforming. Laimbeer, we’ll see... off to a disappointing start. Thibault was meh before adding Delle Donne. Now he’s a little above meh maybe.

How about Bobby Kelsey? The Sparks organization have been producing head coaches lately. Surprised



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Last edited by Shades on 05/25/18 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
Nixtreefan



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 11:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Gotta start looking deeper into these picks and see through hype which doesn't show that a player has smarts. If you don't have smarts and have never been pushed to play scout defense, they will not do well in the W. Players who have been with teams playing zone have even less of a chance.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 11:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I can't emphasize enough how little a carryover there is from playing to coaching. Being a very good defender is one thing; teaching that to someone else is quite another.

Coaching is teaching, and teaching is a difficult skill in and of itself.

I'm not saying players can't be good coaches -- but assuming a very good player will be a very good coach is a risky proposition, and the whole "mentoring" thing is often just a fantasy.



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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 12:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Expecting, say, me to be able to offer an exceptional repacement coaching candidate is rather different from just saying that a team ought to be able to find an upgrade if they just fire their coach and put a mild amount of effort into finding someone new. Plus, if I'd said Connecticut should fire Anne Donovan and bring in this Curt Miller guy, most people would've said "Who?" There are coaches out there if you happen to find them and hit on the right one. When someone's been in charge of a team for four years and had a bottom-two defense in every single one, maybe you should give someone else a shot.

Some of us felt that Fred Williams should've been fired a year (or two) ago, but now that they've kept him I would slide the other way and suggest people don't panic. They've played three freaking games, and the ones they lost were on the road against two teams expected to be amongst the best in the league. Nothing's on fire just yet.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 12:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
I can't emphasize enough how little a carryover there is from playing to coaching. Being a very good defender is one thing; teaching that to someone else is quite another.

Coaching is teaching, and teaching is a difficult skill in and of itself.

I'm not saying players can't be good coaches -- but assuming a very good player will be a very good coach is a risky proposition, and the whole "mentoring" thing is often just a fantasy.


I'm not assuming anything. There are some players who are natural talents who figure things out intuitively. They often can't communicate what they do to anyone else. Then there are those who had to work and grind their way to success. Taj went to a Division II or III school. She also got pregnant along the way. Her journey required a lot of decision-making and planning. She also had to bust her butt as well as use her brains. In addition, Taj had an unusually long career, which again requires discipline and resourcefulness. Meanwhile, this isn't her first stint as a coach. She spent a year with NY and I seem to remember there was some college experience in there too. Phillips was a journeyman player, who bounced around -- again needing to be smart and resourceful. Dallas initially made her the player development coach precisely because she communicates well. These are the types of players who usually succeed at coaching. As to whether they can actually pull it off, we'll have to see, Right now, the Wings are fifth in defensive rating so technically they're improved based on a small sample size. To be honest, I haven't focused on them yet this season. In the partial games I've seen, what really grabbed my attention was their disjointed offense. On paper, the Wings have a lot of firepower. However, it's clear that they still have a lot of work to do in terms of integrating the pieces.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 2:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
COY often times is a most-improved team award, whether the coach really deserves most of the credit or not.


And, COY is often times a best team award, whether the coach really deserves most of the credit or not.


Nixtreefan



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 2:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Good point.


Shades



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 3:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

No, that doesn’t sound right. Reeve won the year the Lynx went from the lottery to championship (Maya effect). She’s only won once since then. I suspect there wasn’t a greatly improved team in 2016, so they decided to default to one of the best teams. Reeve was overdue for another one.



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Mojo



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 4:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Current coach stats (plus Cooper because his name gets mentioned):
Agler. 14yrs. .549 win% 9yrs playoffs
Brondello. 5yrs .574. 5yrs
Chatman. 7yrs. .481. 4yrs
Hughes. 16yrs. .453. 10yrs
Laimbeer. 13yrs. .573. 9yrs
Miller. 2yrs. .545. 1yr
Reeve. 8yrs. .716. 7yrs
Stocks. 1yr. .353. 0yrs
Thibault. 15yrs. .566. 12yrs
Williams. 9yrs. .460. 4yrs
Cooper. 12yrs. .592. 8yrs
.


shontay33



Joined: 01 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: 05/25/18 4:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
1.Carol Ross-4th highest regular season win% of all-time....644(58-32)...High expectations got Ross fired.

Ross Record:
2012:24-10
2013:24-10
2014:10-12

Ross got fired with a 10-12 record after back to back 24 win seasons.

2.Ann Donovan-Great post player coach...Liz would greatly benefit from having Ann as a HC.

3.Eric Thibault...Son of Mike Thibault...has 10 years experience as a wnba assistant coach.He's paid his dues.

If Dallas does not make the playoffs Fred should get the AX....Standing Pat would be asinine...Fred's record as Tulsa/Dallas HC is 58-81...This is Fred's 5th season as Shock/Wings HC....How much rope should Fred be given?


Zune you must be fed up with Fred!!! Laughing


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