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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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 Posted: 05/20/18 8:48 pm ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
I have continuing questions about Prince, Boyd, and Rodgers. Can we feel sure that we'll get lots of games this season out of both Prince and Boyd? Or either of them? And Rodgers was 2-7 tonight after making her first shot (a three-pointer). New York desperately needs her to put the ball in the basket.
With only nine active players, Rebecca Allen played 5:49 in the first half and not at all in the second half. Hard to believe her roster spot is secure.
Meanwhile, Lindsay Allen started in today's game for Bill Laimbeer. I didn't like cutting her and still don't. But certainly I could be proven completely wrong. |
What’s bad is right now it’s anyone’s guess. We’d heard that Boyd was supposed to be ready today. Achilles recovery is tough for a speed player so I’d speculate that Boyd may not be the super speedy Boyd all year.
Russian interference in our Presidential election is less of a secret than Piph’s injury, which is frustrating. And Rodgers struggles without a true PG to set her up. And the closest one we have is recovering from a torn Achilles, with a timetable of somewhere between 5/25 and next season for her return.
And we haven’t even discussed Stokes yet. So in short, all we have are questions and no answers. No accurate timetables. No accurate prognosis on anyone. No anything.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 05/20/18 8:56 pm ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
I have continuing questions about Prince, Boyd, and Rodgers. Can we feel sure that we'll get lots of games this season out of both Prince and Boyd? Or either of them? And Rodgers was 2-7 tonight after making her first shot (a three-pointer). New York desperately needs her to put the ball in the basket.
With only nine active players, Rebecca Allen played 5:49 in the first half and not at all in the second half. Hard to believe her roster spot is secure.
Meanwhile, Lindsay Allen started in today's game for Bill Laimbeer. I didn't like cutting her and still don't. But certainly I could be proven completely wrong. |
What’s bad is right now it’s anyone’s guess. We’d heard that Boyd was supposed to be ready today. Achilles recovery is tough for a speed player so I’d speculate that Boyd may not be the super speedy Boyd all year.
Russian interference in our Presidential election is less of a secret than Piph’s injury, which is frustrating. And Rodgers struggles without a true PG to set her up. And the closest one we have is recovering from a torn Achilles, with a timetable of somewhere between 5/25 and next season for her return.
And we haven’t even discussed Stokes yet. So in short, all we have are questions and no answers. No accurate timetables. No accurate prognosis on anyone. No anything. |
This is all part of why I didn't and don't understand cutting Lindsay Allen. (In favor of keeping Rebecca Allen?) But I may as well shut up about this because it's done. I just hope we can get a lot of healthy games this season out of both Prince and Boyd. And that Boyd's skills won't be as diminished as many of us fear.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 05/20/18 9:41 pm ::: |
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I'm not convinced that having the missing players would have helped today. If they were here, then probably Nurse gets fewer minutes and Zahui doesn't play. Bottom line, the starters were bad. It's hard for this team to win if Tina plays maybe one good quarter. It's hard to win when the other starters shoot 7-29 24.1%. It's hard to win when this team doesn't rebound. All three happened, so the fact that NY stayed close in this game is a minor miracle.
I see a repeat of last year's slow start when it took awhile to sort out roles and figure out how they wanted to play. If the offense is in a state of flux, then they need their defense to be in good form. That means Katie should restore a normal two post line-up. That will reduce the chance of getting killed off the boards and also provide more rim protection. Not only was there a size problem with today's line-up, but Tina also looked uncomfortable on defense. She was back at center for extended minutes -- something that hasn't happened much in the last couple of years. Tina appeared reluctant to challenge shots or bang aggressively. I think she was afraid of getting into foul trouble.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 05/20/18 9:46 pm ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
I have continuing questions about Prince, Boyd, and Rodgers. Can we feel sure that we'll get lots of games this season out of both Prince and Boyd? Or either of them? And Rodgers was 2-7 tonight after making her first shot (a three-pointer). New York desperately needs her to put the ball in the basket.
With only nine active players, Rebecca Allen played 5:49 in the first half and not at all in the second half. Hard to believe her roster spot is secure.
Meanwhile, Lindsay Allen started in today's game for Bill Laimbeer. I didn't like cutting her and still don't. But certainly I could be proven completely wrong. |
What’s bad is right now it’s anyone’s guess. We’d heard that Boyd was supposed to be ready today. Achilles recovery is tough for a speed player so I’d speculate that Boyd may not be the super speedy Boyd all year.
Russian interference in our Presidential election is less of a secret than Piph’s injury, which is frustrating. And Rodgers struggles without a true PG to set her up. And the closest one we have is recovering from a torn Achilles, with a timetable of somewhere between 5/25 and next season for her return.
And we haven’t even discussed Stokes yet. So in short, all we have are questions and no answers. No accurate timetables. No accurate prognosis on anyone. No anything. |
This is all part of why I didn't and don't understand cutting Lindsay Allen. (In favor of keeping Rebecca Allen?) But I may as well shut up about this because it's done. I just hope we can get a lot of healthy games this season out of both Prince and Boyd. And that Boyd's skills won't be as diminished as many of us fear. |
I was equally as surprised that Lindsay Allen was let go. When it was said that Boyd was playing today, I was also surprised because I know it was said awhile back that Boyd wouldn’t be ready to start the season. So I thought LA’s release meant Boyd would be in the rotation tonight. Hopefully some info is forthcoming but I’m not optimistic about that based on precedent.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 05/20/18 9:52 pm ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
I have continuing questions about Prince, Boyd, and Rodgers. Can we feel sure that we'll get lots of games this season out of both Prince and Boyd? Or either of them? And Rodgers was 2-7 tonight after making her first shot (a three-pointer). New York desperately needs her to put the ball in the basket.
With only nine active players, Rebecca Allen played 5:49 in the first half and not at all in the second half. Hard to believe her roster spot is secure.
Meanwhile, Lindsay Allen started in today's game for Bill Laimbeer. I didn't like cutting her and still don't. But certainly I could be proven completely wrong. |
What’s bad is right now it’s anyone’s guess. We’d heard that Boyd was supposed to be ready today. Achilles recovery is tough for a speed player so I’d speculate that Boyd may not be the super speedy Boyd all year.
Russian interference in our Presidential election is less of a secret than Piph’s injury, which is frustrating. And Rodgers struggles without a true PG to set her up. And the closest one we have is recovering from a torn Achilles, with a timetable of somewhere between 5/25 and next season for her return.
And we haven’t even discussed Stokes yet. So in short, all we have are questions and no answers. No accurate timetables. No accurate prognosis on anyone. No anything. |
This is all part of why I didn't and don't understand cutting Lindsay Allen. (In favor of keeping Rebecca Allen?) But I may as well shut up about this because it's done. I just hope we can get a lot of healthy games this season out of both Prince and Boyd. And that Boyd's skills won't be as diminished as many of us fear. |
I was equally as surprised that Lindsay Allen was let go. When it was said that Boyd was playing today, I was also surprised because I know it was said awhile back that Boyd wouldn’t be ready to start the season. So I thought LA’s release meant Boyd would be in the rotation tonight. Hopefully some info is forthcoming but I’m not optimistic about that based on precedent. |
Given that we're left with tons of guesswork, the only optimistic speculation I can ponder about the injuries is this. New York doesn't have another game for five days. If Boyd, Prince, or both are 80 to 90 percent in terms of health, it may have made sense to say: let's give them another five days, let's have them skip the travel, let's hope that we can get their seasons started at our home opener on Friday.
If even one of the two can't play for a while, then I absolutely don't understand cutting Lindsay Allen.
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J-Spoon
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| Posted: 05/20/18 11:49 pm ::: |
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I think we should replace one of R. Allen or Coleman with Burdick who is more physical and can actually play in the post
I think we should trade one of Rodgers or Prince for IMS or future consideration and bring in a 5th post with size like Hamson, or grit like Larkins or Cannon.
A by product of that trade would be starting Nurse, and more minutes for Zellous at the 2, more size at the SF spot with Burdick who can also actually play the 4 unlike Coleman or R. Allen, and more size or grit in the post to grab rebounds, keep Tina out of foul trouble and at the 4, just watching these games today my immediate over reaction is we have way too many sg and even with Stokes and Vaughn back not enough post, size, grit or rebounding to compete with Dallas, LA, Minn, PX etc and Russell is not the answer
something like
Hartley/Boyd
Nurse/Rodgers or Prince
Zellous/Burdick/Coleman or R. Allen
Charles/Zahui B
Stokes/Vaughn/Cannon or Larkins or Hamson
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 05/21/18 12:15 am ::: |
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| People keep talking about trading Rodgers or Prince. Please count me as highly skeptical that any WNBA team is going to trade anything of significant value (whether a player or a draft choice) for either player. Indeed, I am guessing that the Liberty tried to trade Rodgers or Prince (or either of them) in the offseason and got nowhere. I don't mean to trash either of them. One or both may yet have decent seasons. I just don't see them having much trade value anymore.
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J-Spoon
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| Posted: 05/21/18 12:19 am ::: |
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I like them both but I think that is probably correct, and it is compounded by the fact that SG is the most populated position in the league and they both probably have max contracts.
I still think there could be a deal with Vegas because he has two small guards and a lack of guards on top of that, if they still had their second round pick that could probably get it done but they gave to Minn for the pick they used on Park I believe.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 05/21/18 12:24 am ::: |
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| J-Spoon wrote: |
I like them both but I think that is probably correct, and it is compounded by the fact that SG is the most populated position in the league and they both probably have max contracts.
I still think there could be a deal with Vegas because he has two small guards and a lack of guards on top of that, if they still had their second round pick that could probably get it done but they gave to Minn for the pick they used on Park I believe. |
What you've added is part of what I was thinking: that SG is the most populated position in the league, that both Prince and Rodgers probably have max contracts at this point.
I guess I should have clarified: yeh, maybe someone would give up a 2019 second round pick for Prince or Rodgers. Maybe. But I was thinking about something that would help the team more than that. In a trade for Prince or Rodgers tomorrow, could New York get either a player who would genuinely help the team this season or a first-round pick for 2019? I don't believe so.
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J-Spoon
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| Posted: 05/21/18 12:37 am ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| J-Spoon wrote: |
I like them both but I think that is probably correct, and it is compounded by the fact that SG is the most populated position in the league and they both probably have max contracts.
I still think there could be a deal with Vegas because he has two small guards and a lack of guards on top of that, if they still had their second round pick that could probably get it done but they gave to Minn for the pick they used on Park I believe. |
What you've added is part of what I was thinking: that SG is the most populated position in the league, that both Prince and Rodgers probably have max contracts at this point.
I guess I should have clarified: yeh, maybe someone would give up a 2019 second round pick for Prince or Rodgers. Maybe. But I was thinking about something that would help the team more than that. In a trade for Prince or Rodgers tomorrow, could New York get either a player who would genuinely help the team this season or a first-round pick for 2019? I don't believe so. |
I agree, but (and it pains me to say this) it would be sort of addition by subtraction. A combo of Nurse and whoever remains between Rodgers and Prince is enough to cover the 2 spot and is probably better than dividing it between the 3 of them. When you add in the fact that Hartley and Zellous have kind of been as good if not better than Rodgers/Prince this past year and that they can also both play the two spot having 5 players who can take those minutes just seem like overkill, and it pushes Zellous to the 3 and Hartley to the 1 where they are good but aren't at there natural position. One side effect of that this off season was cutting L. Allen in favor of keeping the 5 2 guards because the combo of Hartley and Zellous is enough to get by on until the return of Boyd.
If Prince or Rodgers were traded for a future 2nd round pick it would also allow us to bring in a 5th post. Even at full strength I question if Charles/Zahui B Stokes/Vaughn is enough to compete with the bigger teams. I would also consider trying to trade them for a posiible misfit kind of player like McGhee-Stafford who I think might be better for the Liberty than say a Russell, or a player like Jefferson who because of her injury and not fitting the Laimbeer profile might be attainable even f we have to throw in our 2nd round pick, but even if it was for future consideration I think adding the 5th post would still be another positive from making a less than value trade for Rodgers or Prince.
With that said this is also some knee jerk reaction to the first game, Nurse's success and having been frustrated with Prince and Rodgers not being as good as they could be last season, and with Prince seeming to miss a lot of time with over seas commitments and injuries.
Even if we keep them both I would probably move on from one of Coleman or R. Allen to bring in the 5th post
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root_thing
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Bob Lamm
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Bob Lamm
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toad455
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| Posted: 05/21/18 10:33 am ::: |
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| Aces' weakest spot right now is at SG. Even with McBride back, their options are either Louis or Schimmel or to have Plum back-up McBride at SG. Rodgers for Coffey seems fair. Or even Rodgers for Nared. The Liberty have Nared as their flex 3/4 instead of Coleman.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 05/21/18 12:29 pm ::: |
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Prince was actually pretty good in the 2nd half of 2017. I was surprised to see she scored 12 ppg both before and after the All-Star break. However, her shooting accuracy improved significantly as the season progressed: 1st half 35.6 FG%/32.7 3Pt% vs 2nd half 44.8 FG%/36.6 3Pt%. I also thought her defense was way better after the All-Star break. Early in the season, it was flat-out bad. Notably, Prince is still the best Liberty player at creating off the dribble. That alone makes her necessary to the team.
The simple but sad truth about Rodgers is that she may be reverting back to form. We like to think when a player improves it's the product of hard work and that the change is permanent. No doubt Sugar works hard -- probably the hardest worker on the team -- but it may be that what we saw in 2016 was simply a fluke. Rodgers has been an inaccurate shooter for most of her career. This goes back to college when she cracked 40% shooting only once and finished at 37.4 FG% for her 4 years. What made last season's drop-off palatable is that she still played very good defense. But last night, Sugar let Quigley get loose for 15 points in the 4th quarter which pretty much sunk the Liberty. If Rodgers can't even play defense, then she really is useless. Hopefully, yesterday was an aberration. Sugar will never have a great overall shooting percentage, but if she can shoot 3's at a respectable clip, refrain from taking crazy shots, and play good defense, then there should still be a market for her services. The killer is her contract. I don't remember any WNBA trades where a team ate part of the contract for a player they were trading. Probably isn't allowed. Perhaps the solution is to swap Sugar for another team's disappointment in a "change-of-scenery" trade.
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toad455
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| Posted: 05/21/18 2:59 pm ::: |
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| So Vaughn is done overseas. I'd assume she'll be back and ready for Friday's game vs. Minnesota?
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Nixtreefan
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| Posted: 05/21/18 3:15 pm ::: |
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| I will be surprised if she is there, thats a long season and probably needs a couple of days.
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toad455
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| Posted: 05/21/18 3:17 pm ::: |
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| Nixtreefan wrote: |
| I will be surprised if she is there, thats a long season and probably needs a couple of days. |
Agreed. Plus Stokes said she'll be ready. We can have Vaughn ready by next Tuesday's game.
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Shades
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| Posted: 05/21/18 3:38 pm ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
| Nixtreefan wrote: |
| I will be surprised if she is there, thats a long season and probably needs a couple of days. |
Agreed. Plus Stokes said she'll be ready. We can have Vaughn ready by next Tuesday's game. |
I guess you’re still not in love with Zahui, but do you like Vaughn all that much to be pushing for her to come back?
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toad455
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| Posted: 05/21/18 3:42 pm ::: |
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| Zahui B's more suited for the PF spot. Stokes and Vaughn should be the two centers. We should still have Russell on Friday, so it should be Stokes and Russell at center.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 05/21/18 5:06 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
Prince was actually pretty good in the 2nd half of 2017. I was surprised to see she scored 12 ppg both before and after the All-Star break. However, her shooting accuracy improved significantly as the season progressed: 1st half 35.6 FG%/32.7 3Pt% vs 2nd half 44.8 FG%/36.6 3Pt%. I also thought her defense was way better after the All-Star break. Early in the season, it was flat-out bad. Notably, Prince is still the best Liberty player at creating off the dribble. That alone makes her necessary to the team.
The simple but sad truth about Rodgers is that she may be reverting back to form. We like to think when a player improves it's the product of hard work and that the change is permanent. No doubt Sugar works hard -- probably the hardest worker on the team -- but it may be that what we saw in 2016 was simply a fluke. Rodgers has been an inaccurate shooter for most of her career. This goes back to college when she cracked 40% shooting only once and finished at 37.4 FG% for her 4 years. What made last season's drop-off palatable is that she still played very good defense. But last night, Sugar let Quigley get loose for 15 points in the 4th quarter which pretty much sunk the Liberty. If Rodgers can't even play defense, then she really is useless. Hopefully, yesterday was an aberration. Sugar will never have a great overall shooting percentage, but if she can shoot 3's at a respectable clip, refrain from taking crazy shots, and play good defense, then there should still be a market for her services. The killer is her contract. I don't remember any WNBA trades where a team ate part of the contract for a player they were trading. Probably isn't allowed. Perhaps the solution is to swap Sugar for another team's disappointment in a "change-of-scenery" trade. |
I concur. I think Sugar would be best with a “vision” PG who can set her up. She gets in trouble trying to create her own shots and that area of her game is still weak. Then when she gets wild she tends to miss 3s also.
I also agree about Piph, who is a solid player who was recovering from an ACL last year. She is our closest thing to a scoring/passing guard.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 05/21/18 5:59 pm ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
| Nixtreefan wrote: |
| I will be surprised if she is there, thats a long season and probably needs a couple of days. |
Agreed. Plus Stokes said she'll be ready. We can have Vaughn ready by next Tuesday's game. |
Thank God. Don’t think we will see much of Coleman at the 4 on Friday.
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