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PostPosted: 05/16/18 7:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Whatever the number of games turns out to be, temporary suspension is an option right (for Kia)?

Depends on the cap situation, more than anything else. If they have enough room to cover 13 players, then yes.


This makes me feel the Liberty will let Vaughn "rest" to fall under this suspension. Then one of L. Allen, Zahui B or Russell get cut when Vaughn is back.


I am so over Kia Vaughn from the first time we had her ... never thought she came close to what we thought of her when we drafted her



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PostPosted: 05/16/18 7:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
root_thing wrote:
We can say the same about Stokes. She was at her best as a rookie, dropped-off a little in her second year, and dropped off some more last season. What's the hurry to give her a contract extension? Worst case scenario, Kiah becomes an RFA and you can match any offer. But if she falls off some more, then you could let her walk. Now you're stuck with her for better or worse.


Even at her worst she is still a good defensive post. Put the right pieces around her that can score and you have a really solid player. I would have her on the Storm right away Surprised


I guarantee you that management's criticism of Stokes was primarily aimed at her performance on defense. Generally, we've seen declining blocks, increasing fouls, and some would argue slower rotations. So, if the trend continues, do you really know what her worst looks like? Besides, you haven't addressed the question of why extend Stokes' contract now when you can wait to see how she performs before doing so.



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PostPosted: 05/16/18 8:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:

This makes me feel the Liberty will let Vaughn "rest" to fall under this suspension. Then one of L. Allen, Zahui B or Russell get cut when Vaughn is back.


Vaughn not showing up is a legitimate reason to suspend her. There's no need to conjure up a fake one.



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PostPosted: 05/16/18 8:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:
root_thing wrote:
We can say the same about Stokes. She was at her best as a rookie, dropped-off a little in her second year, and dropped off some more last season. What's the hurry to give her a contract extension? Worst case scenario, Kiah becomes an RFA and you can match any offer. But if she falls off some more, then you could let her walk. Now you're stuck with her for better or worse.


Even at her worst she is still a good defensive post. Put the right pieces around her that can score and you have a really solid player. I would have her on the Storm right away Surprised


I guarantee you that management's criticism of Stokes was primarily aimed at her performance on defense. Generally, we've seen declining blocks, increasing fouls, and some would argue slower rotations. So, if the trend continues, do you really know what her worst looks like? Besides, you haven't addressed the question of why extend Stokes' contract now when you can wait to see how she performs before doing so.


Regarding the defense, all true. I thought she was terrible for the first 5 or so games...awesome during that stretch of double-doubles...awful for the rest of the first half of the season...then figured it out down the stretch and played more like the former Stokes at least in terms of defensive position. Which is not good enough. If you're the defensive stopper on the team, you have to get that done with consistency.

But here's an interesting stat. Her FG% dropped 11 points last year in spite of her free throw percentage going way up...which would tend to indicate an ability to shoot from 15 feet that we haven't seen before. If you can shoot FTs at an 80% rate then you can hit mid-range shots in game action too. Yet, her FG% declined quite a lot. What can that be traced to? Shooting from 5 feet or less. .609 from the field last year after .708 the year before. That's a major decline. Whatever the reason, her explosiveness around the rim wasn't as good last year as it has been before. She played a ton of minutes in Turkey last year. Hopefully this time around she's better able to handle that grind upon her return. If she returns to the finisher she has been before...even with no change in outside shooting...you should be able to get 8-9 points per game from her. If Katie Smith is true to her word about a more diversified offense, then maybe Kiah will be truly encouraged to shoot the ball...something I'd maintain that she can do when you look at the entire picture in terms of shooting form and numbers. Any pro who shoots 80% free throws can shoot the same shot in game action with at least some consistency...and Kiah is almost always open from 15-18 feet. What she has never done is actually shoot the damn ball when she's open.

I'm sort of mixed on the whole thing. I like stability. I like contract extensions for players who deserve them. I like confidence building in terms of players knowing they're wanted. I think it's fair, however, to question it based on a player who's primarily shown decline since her rookie year. I'm also open to seeing if the decisions the people in charge are making are actually working. So far this is different from the Laimbeer era in that we are seeing very minor turnover. We've had no trades in this regime. We've seen a few signings and now an extension. I'll be very curious to see if what appears to be a more player-friendly approach actually works.



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PostPosted: 05/16/18 8:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I like Stokes and think she is a good fit with Charles so locking her in doesn't really bother me. And for now we can still afford another veteran post if one becomes an option.


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PostPosted: 05/16/18 8:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

even if Vaughn is a temporary suspension we still need to know

what is going to happen with R. Allen

and even if R. Allen doesn't show one of Zahui B or R. Gray still has to be cut

unless we're thrown a curve ball and it turns out to be Russell or L. Allen who gets cut instead.


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PostPosted: 05/16/18 8:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

R. Allen still isn't in camp and it makes me believe she's not showing up. Gray seems like the likely cut, but you never know.



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PostPosted: 05/16/18 8:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
I like Stokes and think she is a good fit with Charles so locking her in doesn't really bother me. And for now we can still afford another veteran post if one becomes an option.


Maybe Stokes blocks being down is due to teams not challenging her as much.



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PostPosted: 05/16/18 9:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Actually, I think I saw R. Allen in today's videos -- one on Snapchat and the other in Twitter (on the sidelines, left corner watching the action). Shocked I don't see how she can make the team after one or two practices, but I would think she knows that. So, Bec flew all the way here from France for... Question

Regarding Stokes, I like her and I hope she bounces back. I'm not the one who accused her of being out of shape. In fact, I was the one challenging that idea. But Bill chose to publicly call her out, and in a couple of interviews I saw, Smith and Cash supported him. Fine, they should know better than me. To further make their point, the coaches reduced Stokes' minutes to less than half a game (19.6 mpg).

Flash forward to this season. Kiah shows up late for camp and misses both preseason games. A week later they give her a contract extension. This is the same player you publicly embarrassed last season. She hasn't played a single second of basketball yet. What changed? Did Kiah have the greatest week of practice in the history of the franchise? Did they get Stokes cheap by signing her while her value is down? I don't see any obvious reason for the extension.



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PostPosted: 05/16/18 9:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The only thing that changed is the head coach as well as potentially who is in charge. It may just be a different, confidence-building approach. That's the only thing I can really think of unless they think she's in better shape or whatever than last year. Beating her down didn't work well last year either so maybe that's a part of the thinking.



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PostPosted: 05/16/18 10:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Katie hears Yanny, while Bill hears Laurel. Katie sees the gold stripe dress, while Bill sees the blue stripe dress. Smile

Except Katie went along with the idea that Kiah was out of shape. Just being a good soldier?



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 1:19 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote




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PostPosted: 05/17/18 5:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yeah i thought i saw R. Allen in a snapchat video aswell



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 6:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Actually, I think I saw R. Allen in today's videos -- one on Snapchat and the other in Twitter (on the sidelines, left corner watching the action). Shocked I don't see how she can make the team after one or two practices, but I would think she knows that. So, Bec flew all the way here from France for... Question

Ball or no ball, NYC is still a pretty sweet place to visit! Wink



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 8:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
root_thing wrote:
Actually, I think I saw R. Allen in today's videos -- one on Snapchat and the other in Twitter (on the sidelines, left corner watching the action). Shocked I don't see how she can make the team after one or two practices, but I would think she knows that. So, Bec flew all the way here from France for... Question

Ball or no ball, NYC is still a pretty sweet place to visit! Wink


Don't you mean White Plains? Smile


Not a clear picture, but based on build, pose, hair, and skin tone (sorry), I think that's Rebecca Allen.



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 9:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Kiah Stokes' situation, among others, is a perfect illustration of the Wins Above Replacement metric.

Stokes is who she is, a solid complementary player who can do enough at the WNBA level to add value to a roster. She's not a great player, or necessarily even a good one, but she's better than anyone who's not on a roster right now, and better than a significant number of players who are.

Or, to put it another way, if you take her off the roster, who do you replace her with that's available? (No trade talk allowed, as that quickly degenerates into fantasy ...)



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 9:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

And while this is an over simplification Stokes has played the second most post minutes over the past three seasons and in those seasons NY has had the best regular season record once and the third best regular season record the other two times behind super teams LA and Minn. At worst she is a decent contributor/component to a team that has done fairly well.


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PostPosted: 05/17/18 10:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
The Kiah Stokes' situation, among others, is a perfect illustration of the Wins Above Replacement metric.

Stokes is who she is, a solid complementary player who can do enough at the WNBA level to add value to a roster. She's not a great player, or necessarily even a good one, but she's better than anyone who's not on a roster right now, and better than a significant number of players who are.

Or, to put it another way, if you take her off the roster, who do you replace her with that's available? (No trade talk allowed, as that quickly degenerates into fantasy ...)


yes. agree. I thought the extension was warranted as it assures them of at least having a journeywoman performer. If they get someone substantially better, fine, she's still there as a decent backup.



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 10:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

All our questions will be answered in a few hours
Fingers crossed

When a post is too wide on the board it makes the page difficult to read...
just saying



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 12:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So many teams have announced their final rosters, what's taking the Liberty so long?



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 12:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
So many teams have announced their final rosters, what's taking the Liberty so long?


Seems like the theme of these last 365 days with this organization ....Everything has took so long . Til next season then it will just be the last 2 words instead Laughing jk jk



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 12:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
So many teams have announced their final rosters, what's taking the Liberty so long?

Previous evidence from this offseason would suggest they've probably done it, they just haven't bothered to tell anyone.



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 12:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
toad455 wrote:
So many teams have announced their final rosters, what's taking the Liberty so long?

Previous evidence from this offseason would suggest they've probably done it, they just haven't bothered to tell anyone.


They might have given Boyd and Zahui multi-year extensions and we’d probably not know that either. Lib PR has been the worst this year.



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 12:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
So many teams have announced their final rosters, what's taking the Liberty so long?


The Sparks and Vegas are the most interesting ones to me. Putting off the cuts as long as possible. The showdown in the West.

Are trades going to be done or just cuts? Let’s get to it. Only 4 hours to go.



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 1:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

While we're waiting on the Cutdown Countdown, I'd like to get back to the Stokes extension for a moment. I'm hearing a lot of comments that basically say, "I like Stokes" or "She's worth having on the team." However, no one is addressing the question of, "Why now?" Kiah is a restricted free agent at the end of the season. The Liberty control whether she can walk away, not Stokes. And it's not like Kiah is a star player that you need to keep happy and pampered. Usually, early extensions are a symbolic gesture by the team to show their commitment to a star.

When people make decisions, they generally want more information and more choices. So, why not wait until next February to make a decision? Look at all the important information you'll have by then:

1) An extra year of performance to evaluate Stokes.
2) Knowledge of how your team performed and where you need help.
3) A final list of available free agents who may help you fill those needs.
4) The draft slots where you will be selecting.
5) A better feel for both the quality and availability of players in the draft.

On top of that, the team will have greater flexibility because they're locked into one less player. The only reasons I can think of for making the decision now is if management thinks they got a discount or because they're worried about changes that may occur based on the CBA opt-out. Otherwise, I don't see any advantage in giving Stokes an extension right now.



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 1:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Some kind of clause might explain the rash of early multi-year extensions given to the class of 2015, even to KML. But in the news release, the SEA GM acted like the players were really worthy of the extensions... could be standard PR.



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 1:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
So, why not wait until next February to make a decision?



I would think the obvious answer is money. Wait until next year and someone offers her max. Are you gonna match it? Now you can give her a little raise and both sides are happy and she's locked in.



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 1:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Are teams getting a discount on these early contracts? Players seeing any kind of raise after their rookie contracts might be content with like $80-$90K for Loyd. Less for KML.



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 2:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
root_thing wrote:
So, why not wait until next February to make a decision?



I would think the obvious answer is money. Wait until next year and someone offers her max. Are you gonna match it? Now you can give her a little raise and both sides are happy and she's locked in.


If someone offers Stokes max, then she probably had a good year. Matching under those circumstances wouldn't be so onerous. You might also be able to work out a Natasha Howard type trade with the other team beforehand.

After giving it more thought, a more interesting take might be fear that a new CBA results in a much higher max within a similar cap. That would benefit the people on top but further squeeze middle-class players. Perhaps that uncertainty is enough incentive for both sides to reach a compromise right now.



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 2:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I would also point out, for what it's worth, that just because it's an extension doesn't mean there's any guaranteed money in it. Presumably it suggests they like the player, but they're not necessarily locked into anything.



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 3:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Maybe the GMs think the cap and max will go up in 19 so locking in a player now means a lower rate.


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PostPosted: 05/17/18 3:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
While we're waiting on the Cutdown Countdown, I'd like to get back to the Stokes extension for a moment. I'm hearing a lot of comments that basically say, "I like Stokes" or "She's worth having on the team." However, no one is addressing the question of, "Why now?" Kiah is a restricted free agent at the end of the season. The Liberty control whether she can walk away, not Stokes. And it's not like Kiah is a star player that you need to keep happy and pampered. Usually, early extensions are a symbolic gesture by the team to show their commitment to a star.

When people make decisions, they generally want more information and more choices. So, why not wait until next February to make a decision? Look at all the important information you'll have by then:

1) An extra year of performance to evaluate Stokes.
2) Knowledge of how your team performed and where you need help.
3) A final list of available free agents who may help you fill those needs.
4) The draft slots where you will be selecting.
5) A better feel for both the quality and availability of players in the draft.

On top of that, the team will have greater flexibility because they're locked into one less player. The only reasons I can think of for making the decision now is if management thinks they got a discount or because they're worried about changes that may occur based on the CBA opt-out. Otherwise, I don't see any advantage in giving Stokes an extension right now.


groot_thing - I think you have probably given this issue far more thought than the Liberty brass did. I imagine their thought process was something like "Hey we like Stokes. Let's see if she will go for an extension."



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 4:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So the Liberty are going to wait until Monday to announce their roster?



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 4:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
So the Liberty are going to wait until Monday to announce their roster?


Times up! I wouldn’t be surprised if the Sparks don’t want to announce their final roster (unless it’s required).



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 4:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:

groot_thing - I think you have probably given this issue far more thought than the Liberty brass did. I imagine their thought process was something like "Hey we like Stokes. Let's see if she will go for an extension."


Eh, everything discussed on this board is probably more thought than the GMs give it. Razz

groot_thing? Did I just become a member of Marvel Comics?



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 4:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Laughing



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 5:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Russell, Gray and L.Allen gone according to .com Transactoions page. Vaughn temp suspended.



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 5:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
Russell, Gray and L.Allen gone according to .com Transactoions page. Vaughn temp suspended.


yeah i just checked that out , Could this be wrong ? They also have Vadeeva being waived by LA . Not sure if i should trust this yet . If so Seattle should give Russell and Vadeeva a serious look !



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 5:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I would suspect that all the names are meant to be there, but it was meant to say that Vadeeva is Temporarily Suspended (as with the listing for several others).



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 5:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So R. Allen makes the final team? Ugh! Hopefully someone else picks up Russell. So we start with 10 assuming Prince is injured and Boyd is ready? Rather thin inside without Vaughn. Should have kept Russell over R. Allen.



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 5:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

New York Allen, Lindsay Waived
New York Gray, Reshanda Waived
New York Russell, Mercedes Waived
New York Vaughn, Kia Suspended – Temporary*



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 5:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
I would suspect that all the names are meant to be there, but it was meant to say that Vadeeva is Temporarily Suspended (as with the listing for several others).


They seemed to get Dabovic status right of Full suspension and Lavender's temp suspension . So how sure can we be that Vadeeva was not waived ?



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 5:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
I would suspect that all the names are meant to be there, but it was meant to say that Vadeeva is Temporarily Suspended (as with the listing for several others).


They seemed to get Dabovic status right of Full suspension and Lavender's temp suspension . So how sure can we be that Vadeeva was not waived ?


Because it says so in their announcement of the team



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 5:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
I would suspect that all the names are meant to be there, but it was meant to say that Vadeeva is Temporarily Suspended (as with the listing for several others).


They seemed to get Dabovic status right of Full suspension and Lavender's temp suspension . So how sure can we be that Vadeeva was not waived ?

The Sparks announced her as being on their opening day roster in multiple places - https://twitter.com/LA_Sparks/status/997224033644171264 , http://sparks.wnba.com/news/2018-sparks-roster-released/ . That's usually a pretty strong hint.



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 5:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
I would suspect that all the names are meant to be there, but it was meant to say that Vadeeva is Temporarily Suspended (as with the listing for several others).


They seemed to get Dabovic status right of Full suspension and Lavender's temp suspension . So how sure can we be that Vadeeva was not waived ?


Because it says so in their announcement of the team


She’s shown in the final roster I posted with her photoshopped #10 jersey.



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 5:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
I would suspect that all the names are meant to be there, but it was meant to say that Vadeeva is Temporarily Suspended (as with the listing for several others).


They seemed to get Dabovic status right of Full suspension and Lavender's temp suspension . So how sure can we be that Vadeeva was not waived ?


Because it says so in their announcement of the team


Thanks Michelle !



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 6:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

On one hand I’m not happy to lose Lindsay Allen because of her vision and PG skills. OTOH it suggests Piph is not out that long. It also suggests that Piph may play some point and/or that Boyd has retained much of her athletic ability.

This puts the onus on Stokes and Zahui to produce as well.



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 6:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Am I missing something? I count 12 players for the Liberty. If so, why do we have to suspend Vaughn? You would suspend her to get a 13th player.

1 Hartley/Boyd
2 Prince/Rodgers/Nurse
3 Zellous/R. Allen
4 Charles/Coleman
5 Stokes/Zahui B/Vaughn



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 6:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Am I missing something? I count 12 players for the Liberty. If so, why do we have to suspend Vaughn? You would suspend her to get a 13th player.

1 Hartley/Boyd
2 Prince/Rodgers/Nurse
3 Zellous/R. Allen
4 Charles/Coleman
5 Stokes/Zahui B/Vaughn


Vaughn is still overseas. Suspending her could possibly let the Liberty bring back Russell until Vaughn arrives.



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PostPosted: 05/17/18 6:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Or you just suspend her because she's not there and you don't want to pay her.



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