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Lib Fan
Joined: 10 May 2005 Posts: 4593 Location: New York City
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Posted: 05/16/18 7:43 pm ::: |
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toad455 wrote: |
Richyyy wrote: |
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
Whatever the number of games turns out to be, temporary suspension is an option right (for Kia)? |
Depends on the cap situation, more than anything else. If they have enough room to cover 13 players, then yes. |
This makes me feel the Liberty will let Vaughn "rest" to fall under this suspension. Then one of L. Allen, Zahui B or Russell get cut when Vaughn is back. |
I am so over Kia Vaughn from the first time we had her ... never thought she came close to what we thought of her when we drafted her
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 05/16/18 7:55 pm ::: |
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Michelle89 wrote: |
root_thing wrote: |
We can say the same about Stokes. She was at her best as a rookie, dropped-off a little in her second year, and dropped off some more last season. What's the hurry to give her a contract extension? Worst case scenario, Kiah becomes an RFA and you can match any offer. But if she falls off some more, then you could let her walk. Now you're stuck with her for better or worse. |
Even at her worst she is still a good defensive post. Put the right pieces around her that can score and you have a really solid player. I would have her on the Storm right away |
I guarantee you that management's criticism of Stokes was primarily aimed at her performance on defense. Generally, we've seen declining blocks, increasing fouls, and some would argue slower rotations. So, if the trend continues, do you really know what her worst looks like? Besides, you haven't addressed the question of why extend Stokes' contract now when you can wait to see how she performs before doing so.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 05/16/18 8:02 pm ::: |
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toad455 wrote: |
This makes me feel the Liberty will let Vaughn "rest" to fall under this suspension. Then one of L. Allen, Zahui B or Russell get cut when Vaughn is back. |
Vaughn not showing up is a legitimate reason to suspend her. There's no need to conjure up a fake one.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 05/16/18 8:21 pm ::: |
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root_thing wrote: |
Michelle89 wrote: |
root_thing wrote: |
We can say the same about Stokes. She was at her best as a rookie, dropped-off a little in her second year, and dropped off some more last season. What's the hurry to give her a contract extension? Worst case scenario, Kiah becomes an RFA and you can match any offer. But if she falls off some more, then you could let her walk. Now you're stuck with her for better or worse. |
Even at her worst she is still a good defensive post. Put the right pieces around her that can score and you have a really solid player. I would have her on the Storm right away |
I guarantee you that management's criticism of Stokes was primarily aimed at her performance on defense. Generally, we've seen declining blocks, increasing fouls, and some would argue slower rotations. So, if the trend continues, do you really know what her worst looks like? Besides, you haven't addressed the question of why extend Stokes' contract now when you can wait to see how she performs before doing so. |
Regarding the defense, all true. I thought she was terrible for the first 5 or so games...awesome during that stretch of double-doubles...awful for the rest of the first half of the season...then figured it out down the stretch and played more like the former Stokes at least in terms of defensive position. Which is not good enough. If you're the defensive stopper on the team, you have to get that done with consistency.
But here's an interesting stat. Her FG% dropped 11 points last year in spite of her free throw percentage going way up...which would tend to indicate an ability to shoot from 15 feet that we haven't seen before. If you can shoot FTs at an 80% rate then you can hit mid-range shots in game action too. Yet, her FG% declined quite a lot. What can that be traced to? Shooting from 5 feet or less. .609 from the field last year after .708 the year before. That's a major decline. Whatever the reason, her explosiveness around the rim wasn't as good last year as it has been before. She played a ton of minutes in Turkey last year. Hopefully this time around she's better able to handle that grind upon her return. If she returns to the finisher she has been before...even with no change in outside shooting...you should be able to get 8-9 points per game from her. If Katie Smith is true to her word about a more diversified offense, then maybe Kiah will be truly encouraged to shoot the ball...something I'd maintain that she can do when you look at the entire picture in terms of shooting form and numbers. Any pro who shoots 80% free throws can shoot the same shot in game action with at least some consistency...and Kiah is almost always open from 15-18 feet. What she has never done is actually shoot the damn ball when she's open.
I'm sort of mixed on the whole thing. I like stability. I like contract extensions for players who deserve them. I like confidence building in terms of players knowing they're wanted. I think it's fair, however, to question it based on a player who's primarily shown decline since her rookie year. I'm also open to seeing if the decisions the people in charge are making are actually working. So far this is different from the Laimbeer era in that we are seeing very minor turnover. We've had no trades in this regime. We've seen a few signings and now an extension. I'll be very curious to see if what appears to be a more player-friendly approach actually works.
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 6801
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Posted: 05/16/18 8:29 pm ::: |
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I like Stokes and think she is a good fit with Charles so locking her in doesn't really bother me. And for now we can still afford another veteran post if one becomes an option.
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 6801
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Posted: 05/16/18 8:32 pm ::: |
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even if Vaughn is a temporary suspension we still need to know
what is going to happen with R. Allen
and even if R. Allen doesn't show one of Zahui B or R. Gray still has to be cut
unless we're thrown a curve ball and it turns out to be Russell or L. Allen who gets cut instead.
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22475 Location: NJ
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Posted: 05/16/18 8:37 pm ::: |
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R. Allen still isn't in camp and it makes me believe she's not showing up. Gray seems like the likely cut, but you never know.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011 Posts: 10911
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Posted: 05/16/18 8:57 pm ::: |
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J-Spoon wrote: |
I like Stokes and think she is a good fit with Charles so locking her in doesn't really bother me. And for now we can still afford another veteran post if one becomes an option. |
Maybe Stokes blocks being down is due to teams not challenging her as much.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 05/16/18 9:19 pm ::: |
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Actually, I think I saw R. Allen in today's videos -- one on Snapchat and the other in Twitter (on the sidelines, left corner watching the action). I don't see how she can make the team after one or two practices, but I would think she knows that. So, Bec flew all the way here from France for...
Regarding Stokes, I like her and I hope she bounces back. I'm not the one who accused her of being out of shape. In fact, I was the one challenging that idea. But Bill chose to publicly call her out, and in a couple of interviews I saw, Smith and Cash supported him. Fine, they should know better than me. To further make their point, the coaches reduced Stokes' minutes to less than half a game (19.6 mpg).
Flash forward to this season. Kiah shows up late for camp and misses both preseason games. A week later they give her a contract extension. This is the same player you publicly embarrassed last season. She hasn't played a single second of basketball yet. What changed? Did Kiah have the greatest week of practice in the history of the franchise? Did they get Stokes cheap by signing her while her value is down? I don't see any obvious reason for the extension.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 05/16/18 9:45 pm ::: |
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The only thing that changed is the head coach as well as potentially who is in charge. It may just be a different, confidence-building approach. That's the only thing I can really think of unless they think she's in better shape or whatever than last year. Beating her down didn't work well last year either so maybe that's a part of the thinking.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 63798
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010 Posts: 16464 Location: Holland
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Posted: 05/17/18 5:05 am ::: |
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Yeah i thought i saw R. Allen in a snapchat video aswell
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Luuuc #NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 21937
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 05/17/18 8:00 am ::: |
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Luuuc wrote: |
root_thing wrote: |
Actually, I think I saw R. Allen in today's videos -- one on Snapchat and the other in Twitter (on the sidelines, left corner watching the action). I don't see how she can make the team after one or two practices, but I would think she knows that. So, Bec flew all the way here from France for... |
Ball or no ball, NYC is still a pretty sweet place to visit! |
Don't you mean White Plains?
Not a clear picture, but based on build, pose, hair, and skin tone (sorry), I think that's Rebecca Allen.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11157
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Posted: 05/17/18 9:48 am ::: |
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The Kiah Stokes' situation, among others, is a perfect illustration of the Wins Above Replacement metric.
Stokes is who she is, a solid complementary player who can do enough at the WNBA level to add value to a roster. She's not a great player, or necessarily even a good one, but she's better than anyone who's not on a roster right now, and better than a significant number of players who are.
Or, to put it another way, if you take her off the roster, who do you replace her with that's available? (No trade talk allowed, as that quickly degenerates into fantasy ...)
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 6801
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Posted: 05/17/18 9:58 am ::: |
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And while this is an over simplification Stokes has played the second most post minutes over the past three seasons and in those seasons NY has had the best regular season record once and the third best regular season record the other two times behind super teams LA and Minn. At worst she is a decent contributor/component to a team that has done fairly well.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32336
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Posted: 05/17/18 10:46 am ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
The Kiah Stokes' situation, among others, is a perfect illustration of the Wins Above Replacement metric.
Stokes is who she is, a solid complementary player who can do enough at the WNBA level to add value to a roster. She's not a great player, or necessarily even a good one, but she's better than anyone who's not on a roster right now, and better than a significant number of players who are.
Or, to put it another way, if you take her off the roster, who do you replace her with that's available? (No trade talk allowed, as that quickly degenerates into fantasy ...) |
yes. agree. I thought the extension was warranted as it assures them of at least having a journeywoman performer. If they get someone substantially better, fine, she's still there as a decent backup.
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if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
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Lib Fan
Joined: 10 May 2005 Posts: 4593 Location: New York City
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Posted: 05/17/18 10:57 am ::: |
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All our questions will be answered in a few hours
Fingers crossed
When a post is too wide on the board it makes the page difficult to read...
just saying
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22475 Location: NJ
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Posted: 05/17/18 12:26 pm ::: |
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So many teams have announced their final rosters, what's taking the Liberty so long?
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12541 Location: Dallas , Texas
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24364 Location: London
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Posted: 05/17/18 12:36 pm ::: |
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toad455 wrote: |
So many teams have announced their final rosters, what's taking the Liberty so long? |
Previous evidence from this offseason would suggest they've probably done it, they just haven't bothered to tell anyone. |
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 63798
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Posted: 05/17/18 12:46 pm ::: |
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Richyyy wrote: |
toad455 wrote: |
So many teams have announced their final rosters, what's taking the Liberty so long? |
Previous evidence from this offseason would suggest they've probably done it, they just haven't bothered to tell anyone. |
They might have given Boyd and Zahui multi-year extensions and we’d probably not know that either. Lib PR has been the worst this year.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 63798
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Posted: 05/17/18 12:52 pm ::: |
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toad455 wrote: |
So many teams have announced their final rosters, what's taking the Liberty so long? |
The Sparks and Vegas are the most interesting ones to me. Putting off the cuts as long as possible. The showdown in the West.
Are trades going to be done or just cuts? Let’s get to it. Only 4 hours to go.
_________________ Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 05/17/18 1:13 pm ::: |
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While we're waiting on the Cutdown Countdown, I'd like to get back to the Stokes extension for a moment. I'm hearing a lot of comments that basically say, "I like Stokes" or "She's worth having on the team." However, no one is addressing the question of, "Why now?" Kiah is a restricted free agent at the end of the season. The Liberty control whether she can walk away, not Stokes. And it's not like Kiah is a star player that you need to keep happy and pampered. Usually, early extensions are a symbolic gesture by the team to show their commitment to a star.
When people make decisions, they generally want more information and more choices. So, why not wait until next February to make a decision? Look at all the important information you'll have by then:
1) An extra year of performance to evaluate Stokes.
2) Knowledge of how your team performed and where you need help.
3) A final list of available free agents who may help you fill those needs.
4) The draft slots where you will be selecting.
5) A better feel for both the quality and availability of players in the draft.
On top of that, the team will have greater flexibility because they're locked into one less player. The only reasons I can think of for making the decision now is if management thinks they got a discount or because they're worried about changes that may occur based on the CBA opt-out. Otherwise, I don't see any advantage in giving Stokes an extension right now.
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